BerettaNut92
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No .223 carbine for me. Between my M1A Scout and my Benelli, I guess I'd grab the Benelli 
Which is best for home defense, 12ga or .223 carbine?
- Thread starter chaim
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chaim
Member
As I recall the original tests were FBI, and they aren't selling anything. Yes many more have been done by those companies but the results are pretty consistent with each other and other independent tests- doesn't sound like doctored and falsified results to me.
As far as the TFL thread, I remember it very well. Shooting through nothing into wall materials to see if a bullet will penatrate, especially with no control (i.e. shooting 12ga at it to see the same), proves nothing. Any projectile powerful enough to kill a man, be it .223, .45acp, 12ga or even .22lr, is easily going to penatrate sheet rock, plaster board, whatever, with little or no problem. The overpenatration I'm more worried about is the likelihood that it might go through walls and into other people after going through the body of the invader.
Well, Glockten, I'd agree that those make wonderful home defense weapons, but I don't think they are quite as good as either a .223 or a 12ga. Even in a long-gun they won't have the stopping power of the shotgun or real rifle round and some of these pistol rounds (.357 and .44mag for instance) have real overpenatration issues out of a handgun, add a foot or more to the barrel length and get the resulting velocity increases and well... In the auto calibers the longer barrel gives no stopping power advantage (velocities seem very close to handgun velocities) but there still are the other long gun advantages (accuracy under stress).
I do have a Hi-Point carbine (no laughing please) and I intend to buy a .357 or .44 lever rifle and I'd be more than willing to use those from time to time or as a stop gap if I get the lever gun before the .223 or 12ga but I don't consider them ideal- just good.
Oracle, I think you are probably right, and I'll probably switch from one to the other and switch camps once or twice a year because the advantages of one v. the other are so close.
Good point. It is a bad idea to bring out a gun to try to intimidate (potential legal issues if you didn't quite need deadly force, and if you do need deadly force and you hesitate because you are hoping they'll stop you might get killed). However, if just taking out the gun does stop the threat and they have a movement in their pants all the better. The 12ga would have a bigger psychological effect than just about anything (what caliber would 12ga translate to, about .70 or so?).
Well, there are a few issues here. First, as already mentioned, this is with one specific type of ammo and at very long ranges. At shorter ranges the .223/5.56 can put a man down quite fast. As a general use military round the 5.56 is somewhat controverial and there are arguements both ways, for police or self defense use (urban use) the .223/5.56 is very effective.
Also, remember this is a gun not a death ray. Back in WWI and WWII plenty of people survived and even stayed in action after being hit with the 8mm Mauser, .303, 30-06 and 7.62x54R that were the primary infantry calibers of the time. I know of one local shooting where the bad guy had to be hit multiple times with both a 12ga and a .45acp before he went down. There are many factors, not only caliber, that go into whether or not a particular person being hit will go down right away or not.
FN74
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mons meg
Member
Look, guys, there's room for compromise here. The 12 gauge is for defending your home from the inside, while the .223 is good for defending your home from the outside.
Just be sure to cut back the trees in a 300 meter or so radius to make a good kill zone.
Seriously, though, I don't understand why there is any debate over over-penetration between these two weapon types...
Just be sure to cut back the trees in a 300 meter or so radius to make a good kill zone.
Seriously, though, I don't understand why there is any debate over over-penetration between these two weapon types...
chaim
Member
Another very good point considering that both, with proper ammo selection (i.e. birdshot or maybe very lightweight buck for the shotgun), have virtually no overpenatration problems.
Nightcrawler
Member
So you've never considered the possibility that you might miss?
chaim
Member
Um, like I said in the post you responded to, if you miss it doesn't really matter what you are using since even .22lr will go through wall board, insulation and aluminum siding. If a round powerful enough to drop a person (including shotgun buck and bird shot) misses it will go through most construction materials used today (except brick, maybe). The only way to prevent penatration through walls if you miss is to set up backstops behind likely and preplanned fields of fire (lots of books and magazines are useful for this).
Nightcrawler
Member
Actually, Chaim, I have personally witnessed a shotgun discharge into a plaster/drywall wall, birdshot, at a range of about 5 feet. Made a large, unpleasant hole in the near side of the wall, but it didn't go clean through.
Hence that's what I keep in my HD shotgun.
Hence that's what I keep in my HD shotgun.
280PLUS
Member
darn you edward...
just when i thought i had the best gun,,,
what i really like is shooting skeet with it , it really frosts some of the guys when i outshoot them and their pricey shotguns with it
its a pretty fast gun and i was doing pretty good at the doubles with it when i was shooting clay
the stock is a little short for me though...
it also makes shooting them with a 12 ga seem like a joke cause you got so much more leeway with it than the 20.
if you want to get good at birds, use a smaller ga shotgun when you practice
just when i thought i had the best gun,,,
what i really like is shooting skeet with it , it really frosts some of the guys when i outshoot them and their pricey shotguns with it
its a pretty fast gun and i was doing pretty good at the doubles with it when i was shooting clay
the stock is a little short for me though...
it also makes shooting them with a 12 ga seem like a joke cause you got so much more leeway with it than the 20.
if you want to get good at birds, use a smaller ga shotgun when you practice
Edward429451
member
I know just what you mean 280! When I took them kids up skeet shootin with the youth 20, I was splainin to em how they'd have to get on it quick cause in no time them birds'd be out of range for a 20. They showed me! They was hittin them birds way out past what I thought would be 20 ga range. Blew my mind. My one son even picked up a double with a first shot miss, could've been a triple. I was wrong, but I was proud. Know what I mean?
(I'm sure them Remchokes helped on the short barrel.)
20 Ga. is extreemly viable as an option.
I was wrong, but I was proud. Know what I mean? (I'm sure them Remchokes helped on the short barrel.)
20 Ga. is extreemly viable as an option.
Trisha
Member
I'm a shotgun girl, and so is Susan:
We've been having a bit of trouble with a prowler/stalker the last couple months, and when we react, it's with both of us in our favorite shoulder rigs and one of us with the HK FP-6 and the other with the Coach Gun.
The Coach Gun is only two shots, true - but it's a devastating close-range defensive weapon with 00buck (and it should flush any surviving goblin my way); and Susan will clean up with her pet .45acp.
The FP-6 is point-of-aim accurate with slugs to 50 yards (a basic part of monthly training is tac drills/transition shots at that distance), and I carry two reloads each of slug and buck.
Hon, a real part of defensive tactics is the psychological factor - and a shotgun ably weilded is a final and resolute statement to deter/end any aggression in my opinion.
The .223 enters the equation for us as a longer-range defensive firearm - but when it's time to strike decisively at distance, make ours DSA'a SA-58 carbines (.308), for we are focused only on terminating a threat, not wounding. . .
Trisha
We've been having a bit of trouble with a prowler/stalker the last couple months, and when we react, it's with both of us in our favorite shoulder rigs and one of us with the HK FP-6 and the other with the Coach Gun.
The Coach Gun is only two shots, true - but it's a devastating close-range defensive weapon with 00buck (and it should flush any surviving goblin my way); and Susan will clean up with her pet .45acp.
The FP-6 is point-of-aim accurate with slugs to 50 yards (a basic part of monthly training is tac drills/transition shots at that distance), and I carry two reloads each of slug and buck.
Hon, a real part of defensive tactics is the psychological factor - and a shotgun ably weilded is a final and resolute statement to deter/end any aggression in my opinion.
The .223 enters the equation for us as a longer-range defensive firearm - but when it's time to strike decisively at distance, make ours DSA'a SA-58 carbines (.308), for we are focused only on terminating a threat, not wounding. . .
Trisha
Nightcrawler
Member
Hell yeah!
Women of such discriminating taste are indeed a rarity in our society today.
Browns Fan
Member
Quote:
Now, I'm not totally there but I'm leaning towards a .223 carbine as a perfect home defense gun. It is a rifle caliber so it has a lot of knockdown power. The .223 is a very well designed round for urban fighting so they actually have proven in testing to have less overpenatration than many handgun rounds.
A lot of knockdown power? If you have read "Blackhawk Down" (I am almost finished reading it for the 2nd time) at least one of the Delta operatives in the Battle of Mogadishu were cursing the .223 (or 5.56, whatever...) for it's lack of knockdown power. After seeing Somalis walk/crawl away after being shot, sometimes with multiple hits, he said he wished for a 7.62.
Now, I'm not totally there but I'm leaning towards a .223 carbine as a perfect home defense gun. It is a rifle caliber so it has a lot of knockdown power. The .223 is a very well designed round for urban fighting so they actually have proven in testing to have less overpenatration than many handgun rounds.
A lot of knockdown power? If you have read "Blackhawk Down" (I am almost finished reading it for the 2nd time) at least one of the Delta operatives in the Battle of Mogadishu were cursing the .223 (or 5.56, whatever...) for it's lack of knockdown power. After seeing Somalis walk/crawl away after being shot, sometimes with multiple hits, he said he wished for a 7.62.
B Coyote
Member
I've read Blackhawk Down, as well....twice.
How much ya wanna bet the Delta Operators were doing the following two things:
1. Using the M855 (62grain) 5.56mm load in the M4 Carbine at ranges in excess of 100 meters.
2. See No. 1.
Oh, FWIW, the 7.62NATO round isn't perfect either. I don't have the book in front of me, but I recall seeing somewhere the 7.62's would occasionally fail to stop.
bc
How much ya wanna bet the Delta Operators were doing the following two things:
1. Using the M855 (62grain) 5.56mm load in the M4 Carbine at ranges in excess of 100 meters.
2. See No. 1.
Oh, FWIW, the 7.62NATO round isn't perfect either. I don't have the book in front of me, but I recall seeing somewhere the 7.62's would occasionally fail to stop.
bc
My take...
I'm all for the shotgun for home defense.
Shotgun= cheaper than an AR.
12 guage ammo= cheaper (unless you don't know how to shop).
Recoil= more (practice and this becomes a non-issue).
Versatility= way better (I like to keep the first round in my Mossberg rubber buck. Looks better in court that you used a "non-lethal" round first).
Reliability= better with a good pump and they are easier to clean to boot. Shoot, most pumps function perfectly with nearly any amount of gook in them!
Intimidation= an AR is mean but in the dark who's gonna see? Hear a rack from a 12 guage and a grown man will pee his pants.
Image= in court a shotgun will appear less evil than an "assualt rifle".
BUT, just use what you are most comfortable with (AFTER extensive practice with both). The .223 has its place but for home defense a shotgun as primary and a good handgun as secondary can't be beat.
I'm all for the shotgun for home defense.
Shotgun= cheaper than an AR.
12 guage ammo= cheaper (unless you don't know how to shop).
Recoil= more (practice and this becomes a non-issue).
Versatility= way better (I like to keep the first round in my Mossberg rubber buck. Looks better in court that you used a "non-lethal" round first).
Reliability= better with a good pump and they are easier to clean to boot. Shoot, most pumps function perfectly with nearly any amount of gook in them!
Intimidation= an AR is mean but in the dark who's gonna see? Hear a rack from a 12 guage and a grown man will pee his pants.
Image= in court a shotgun will appear less evil than an "assualt rifle".
BUT, just use what you are most comfortable with (AFTER extensive practice with both). The .223 has its place but for home defense a shotgun as primary and a good handgun as secondary can't be beat.
Edward429451
member
Interesting theory...possibly tactically unsound, but interesting nontheless. Consider that we use guns for defense 'When in fear for your life or grave bodily harm' . The DA could twist your desire to not kill anyone into a proclamation that you weren't in fear for your life at all, hence used a firearm prematurely and illegally in the face of such altercation, which obviously was not a real life & death scenario or you would've used real ammo.
Kinda thin maybe. I'm no lawyer. But the potential is there for a smart shark I think. I'm gonna keep real ammo in my guns though b/c I'd only ever pull a gun if I was really in fear of death or grave bodily harm to me or my charge(s), and if that turns out to be the case, that they force me to pull a real gun to protect me & mine, I can't afford to take the chance to give them a break after they already forced my hand. I am not the military. I am a family man and as such can afford NO casualties to mine.
FWIW.
capt_happypants
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B Coyote, I suspect that Delta was using Colt Commandos with 11.5" bbls, which has a maximum lethal range of under 20 yards with '855.
FWIW, understand the advantages and disadvantages of shotguns vs ARs.
Shotgun Advantages:
Delivers a massive payload.
Wide variety of shot options
Intimidation factor
*Can* have less overpenetration danger (load choice is critical)
Shotgun Disadvantages:
Unwieldy to maneuver in closed spaces
Heavy recoil
Slow to reload
Difficult to diagnose and clear jams under stress
AR Advantages:
Lightweight
Better suited for close quarters work
Holds up to 30 rounds
Light recoil
Quick to reload
Excellent terminal performance (hint: M193 55gr FMJ)
AR Disadvantages:
High danger of overpenetration (very dependent on load choice/bbl length)
Requires regular maintenance for reliable functioning
Requires more range time to become familiar
*Can* jam easily
Possible legal consequences
It's all about trade-offs. I've shot ARs and shotguns in competitions, and I feel more confident in my AR as a defensive weapon than a shotgun. I accept the risks to myself and my neighbors. Research the subject and determine which system is best for you.
And for Trish's would-be stalker... you have NO idea who you are messing with, and just how much firepower resides up there.
FWIW, understand the advantages and disadvantages of shotguns vs ARs.
Shotgun Advantages:
Delivers a massive payload.
Wide variety of shot options
Intimidation factor
*Can* have less overpenetration danger (load choice is critical)
Shotgun Disadvantages:
Unwieldy to maneuver in closed spaces
Heavy recoil
Slow to reload
Difficult to diagnose and clear jams under stress
AR Advantages:
Lightweight
Better suited for close quarters work
Holds up to 30 rounds
Light recoil
Quick to reload
Excellent terminal performance (hint: M193 55gr FMJ)
AR Disadvantages:
High danger of overpenetration (very dependent on load choice/bbl length)
Requires regular maintenance for reliable functioning
Requires more range time to become familiar
*Can* jam easily
Possible legal consequences
It's all about trade-offs. I've shot ARs and shotguns in competitions, and I feel more confident in my AR as a defensive weapon than a shotgun. I accept the risks to myself and my neighbors. Research the subject and determine which system is best for you.
And for Trish's would-be stalker... you have NO idea who you are messing with, and just how much firepower resides up there.
CZ-100
Member
12 Gauge Defiantly...
Gewehr98 Nice touch with the Bayonet
Gewehr98 Nice touch with the Bayonet
benewton
Member
Like my AR, and did my time with the A1.
Comfortable, old shoes feeling....
But I like my old A5 too, and at homestead ranges, roughly 30 yards or less, I also like big and slow against small and fast.
I've an 870 on the (much delayed) buy list, though I'll probably stick with the 2- 3/4 round, 'cause it's much more easily moved than the A5, and, of course, I've not been able to lay hands on a 18-20" barrel for the old weapon.
And the USPc is always at hand.
If I have to do a rifle, though, the "back door" weapon is one of those cheap Chinese AK's. 30 rounds, over twice as heavy as an AR's, and while the weapon's accuracy sucks at 100 yards, at 21 feet, with a red dot, how much accuracy do you need? Besides, it goes bang every time regardless!
Comfortable, old shoes feeling....
But I like my old A5 too, and at homestead ranges, roughly 30 yards or less, I also like big and slow against small and fast.
I've an 870 on the (much delayed) buy list, though I'll probably stick with the 2- 3/4 round, 'cause it's much more easily moved than the A5, and, of course, I've not been able to lay hands on a 18-20" barrel for the old weapon.
And the USPc is always at hand.
If I have to do a rifle, though, the "back door" weapon is one of those cheap Chinese AK's. 30 rounds, over twice as heavy as an AR's, and while the weapon's accuracy sucks at 100 yards, at 21 feet, with a red dot, how much accuracy do you need? Besides, it goes bang every time regardless!
longeyes
member
I recently promoted my Mini-14 to bedroom duty but that was less for home defense than for deployment in case of "homeland security" issues. Normally, I rely on a couple of Mossy 500s I alternate (one's 12ga, one's 20ga), both loaded with buck, and two handguns, my old trusty Colt Lawman Mk III loaded with 158g .38spls and a Glock, usually my G30 loaded with Cor-Bon 165g Pow'rBall. I think between carbine and scattergun the shotgun is the better home defense choice: safer for you and yours, more dangerous for them and theirs.
1
12.7x99mm
Guest
study balistic tests on both calibers and decide for your self. Make sure you see photos of what each of them do. Its pretty cut and dry which one most people would pick
A Mini-14 or a AR-15 will hold 20-30 rounds which is a lot better than 4-7 out of a 12 gauge. I have neighbors so a .223 or any rifle round is out. I don't want to shoot through too many walls!
I keep a Beretta 92 with a 15+1 capacity for home defense. If I went bigger, it would be my 870 with #4 shot.
I keep a Beretta 92 with a 15+1 capacity for home defense. If I went bigger, it would be my 870 with #4 shot.
Edward is right. If you shoot, you'd better shoot to kill on every shot.
"with bird you lose a lot of stopping power"
Can't disagree more. Birshot is devastating at close range. I think it hits harder than buckshot personally. Ever heard of the "jackhammer effect"?
The .223 is an awesome manstopper. I've taken large deer with 12ga and with .223 and the wounds are about the same size. Both drop the deer very quickly. The .223 probably stops them slightly faster.
I've been considering paying the tax to get a Krinkov made for home defense but I'm not sure if I could handle the blast from a 7.62x39 round. I fired an AK indoors once without hearing protection and it knocked me loopy for at least a full minute.
So I'm also considering paying for a silenced .45ACP.
I wish someone made a 45 acp that held about 20 rounds
My 357 GP-100 certainly feels fine for now when things go bump in the night.
"with bird you lose a lot of stopping power"
Can't disagree more. Birshot is devastating at close range. I think it hits harder than buckshot personally. Ever heard of the "jackhammer effect"?
The .223 is an awesome manstopper. I've taken large deer with 12ga and with .223 and the wounds are about the same size. Both drop the deer very quickly. The .223 probably stops them slightly faster.
I've been considering paying the tax to get a Krinkov made for home defense but I'm not sure if I could handle the blast from a 7.62x39 round. I fired an AK indoors once without hearing protection and it knocked me loopy for at least a full minute.
So I'm also considering paying for a silenced .45ACP.
I wish someone made a 45 acp that held about 20 rounds
My 357 GP-100 certainly feels fine for now when things go bump in the night.
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