Home Defense Shotgun Users-Do you fear hitting friendlies??

[Curio Bill]

Question for Home Defense Shotgun Users-Do you fear hitting friendlies?? I have never gotten a home defense shotgun for fear of hitting a family member in a hostage situation (my personal greatest fear for a break-in scenario - hey, some folks are deathly afraid of snakes!!!). I did use a shotgun back in my former cop life, but just to qualify twice a year at the range. My kids sleep in a different wing of the house, no way to change that given the house plan. Am I worrying too much??

 

[Jeff White]

Hi Bill,
I take you've never actually patterned a shotgun at across the room distance. The shot pattern won't be much much bigger then the bore at most home defense distances. There is a chance you could injure a bystander with the wad though.

Jeff

 

[WVMountainBoy]

It is only my opinion speaking here, but if hostage situations are in fact your concern a shotgun is not by its nature the scalpel needed for that. You would have to be VERY confident in your ability as a marksmen to try the shot anyhow with ANY weapon. A shotgun makes a very effective home defense weapon because of its spread, and with the proper load selection, the load can be absorbed somewhat effectively by normal walls. A shotgun also as a lot of "shock" value as there are few things as unnerving as the sound of a slide action slaming shut, however its foolish to try and use your weapon to scare the person off, but if it happens all the better. I keep a coach style double barral within easy access loaded with 2 3/4 00 buck both barrals are set with full choke tubes to try and restrict the charge to smallest area possible. The damage this weapon can wreak is obvious to most familiar with shotguns, but I don't have kids to worry about shooting around or over. I think in a hostage situation I'd rather have VERY well sighted medium power rifle.

 

[BullfrogKen]

Curio Bill said: Question for Home Defense Shotgun Users-Do you fear hitting friendlies??

No.

Curio Bill said: Am I worrying too much??

Probably.


As Jeff commented, have you ever actually patterned a shotgun at the likely distances you'd use it in your home? Even a cylinder bore won't open much at a few yards, unless the barrel is really a lemon or the shotgun rounds you're using have terrible buffer.



By the way . . . . go shoot your "typical battle rifle" at a 2 inch bullseye at 3 yards and see where the round impacts. Most guys have the handy dandy AR sighted in a somewhere around 100 yards, give or take 50 yards. Once you've done that, ponder where that round would strike if you took that "perfect sight picture" on the hostage taker with your wife in front of him. I assure those who haven't done this exercise will be enlightened . . .

 

[Jeff White]

Ken,
I've seen some clay bird guns that had vent rib almost as high as the sights on an AR over the bore. I've also seen some shotguns with reflex sights on them that were high over the bore. Offset and holdover is something you need to be aware of at close quarters with a lot of weapons.

Jeff

 

[BullfrogKen]

Awwww . . . Jeff. You gave it away.

I was hoping some guys who had never done it would go shoot that drill for themselves this weekend and report back what they saw.


It is enlightening when you do it in a shoothouse for the first time, isn't it? All the hits are centered in the same spot on all the targets, just the wrong ones. . . . Oops.

 

[sm]

What

Jeff White, BullfrogKen posted.

My ears were burning.

Umm, me? My preference is slugs.
I also practice taking head shots (or similar*) to replicate a hostage situation.
Like BG is heading out the kitchen door with Friendly with knife / gun on them and ...
...or...
BG robs business, and snags the young lady employee as hostage and has already made it known intentions are not honorable with this hostage.
Perhaps using a large safe, door of walk in vault for cover..

I just use plain vanilla bone stock shotguns, with plain vanilla slugs, btw...
Err...well I really really like Brenneke's , just cannot count on always having them...

*maybe all I have is a knee cap sticking out...
...go for largest exposed target to stop an immediate threat.

FWIW, I try not to shoot "flat" or one dimensional targets. Life is not that way.
Targets are off to one side, crooked, slanted, partially turned, two/ three dimensional targets...

Awerbuck, do a search on his targets.

 

[kis2]

A) its hard to worry too much when you have a family. everything becomes a worry.
B) i dont think youll ever have to worry about anything, especially concerning a hostage situation in your home involving one of your members
C) slugs are accurate.
D) would you take the shot with any gun? theres no saying what a person would do in that kind of situation, but thats one purpose of a forum, to discuss hypotheticals.

i like to have three kinds of rounds for my hd : non lethal, buck, and slug.

a round for each occasion. the non lethal stuff might be something to look at, then hit or miss you won't have killed someone.

*EDIT* LESS LETHAL. im not advocating that less lethal rounds cant be dangerous, or free the user from any legal or moral decisions or sound judgement. any firearm should be treated as a deadly weapon and the user know his target and whats beyond.

 

[Jeff White]

Less Lethal

kis2,

There is no such thing as a non lethal round. They are known as less lethal because a hit in the head can kill.

The 12 gauge less lethal rounds that are out there are not all that effective. I know of a large police agency that has stopped using 12 gauge less lethal ammunition and only uses 37 or 40mm.

Less lethal is always employed as a force option when there are other officers available to back the less lethal up with deadly force if it becomes necessary.

I would recommend against using less lethal rounds for home defense for a lot of tactical and legal reasons. A search of this forum should bring up several threads about them.

Jeff

 

[blitzen]

I'll just second what Jeff said. A shotgun is, should, and can be used like any other precision instrument. The flock shooting street sweeper mentality is just silly. Know your target and beyond as always. Even in a home defence situation.

 

[Fred Fuller]

kis2,

It's a shotgun. ANYTHING you fire from it can be lethal, including blanks (had a LEO killed with a blank in a training exercise near here a couple years ago). ANYTHING you fire from it will be considered lethal force in the legal sense. There are NO positives to less lethal ammo for non-LEOs, only drawbacks.

Curio Bill,

Meander over to the Shotgun Forum here on THR. There you will find a Lending Library post stickied at the top of the forum. In the Lending Library is Louis Awerbuck's defensive shotgun tape. Ask whoever has it to send it to you next, and watch it. Especially the last part.

You get familiar enough with your shotgun and load and you will KNOW what it will do and what you can do with it. You won't have to worry.

Do I fear hitting friendlies with a shotgun? No. I had Louis' class last summer and shot the graduation exercise successfully.

Are you worrying too much?
Well, that depends. If you don't know for sure how your shotgun shoots and how good you are with it, then no- you likely are worrying for good reason. But you can fix that with some patterning and practice, if you don't want to have to worry about it.

Stay safe,

lpl/nc (18.25mm rules...)

 

[sm]

Re:Training.

I will bow to Jeff White, BullfrogKen and others...on what I am about to post, if I need to be corrected.

Family, Employees, or whomever else, needs to be Trained as well.

Meaning, everyone should be trained to the best of their ability, mental development, level of understanding, physical abilities.

Training and practiced plans for what NON-Shooters are to do, including kids, elderly , physically limited.

"Stop", "Drop" and "Roll" - just like Fire Drills and evacuation plans.

Re: Business Setting. Rule 1, NEVER bunch up, BG(s) can have the total control of a business in a split second.
Suspicious folks come in - spread out, have folks in strategic areas.

Re: Home.
Kids run to "safe area" - whatever these areas are, where the closest one is.
For instance if the kid in watching TV in Den, parents answers door, and it is a BG.
Kid in his room, doing homework, what is that kid to do?
Does kid have a cell phone to call Police Direct?
Safe place to hide with cover tested to resist bullets?
Maybe that bookshelf is in his/her room where it is, to stop bullets.

"Lanes of fire" for fighting back BGS/ providing cover for family

What about the elderly in the home, and steps they are to take?
Bedridden? Walker? Wheelchair?

Access, have a seasoned person assist with assessments, plans of action, training, and quality practice.

--
Accept the fact, a long gun [shotgun or rifle] may NOT be the best HD tool for a given task/situation.

My concerns have always been entering, exiting a structure or answering the door.
I cannot go around in public with a shotgun slung [rifle either].

What if:

One is kicked back in recliner watching TV. Wife comes home, pulls into garage, unlocks kitchen door entry and she has been overpowered at the grocery store and the BG is holding a knife/gun to her head?

One had better not make any sudden moves. You are leaning back, maybe have dozed off.

Now, BG allows you to let recliner down, and wants you to stand up.

Have you practiced drawing from concealment from the pocket of recliner where lever is to release it, and let recliner down?
Have you practiced with your CCW drawing from concealment at such time you have a chance?

I have/do. Others have/ do as well. Including those sleeping in a recliner because they are pregnant, recovering from surgery such as, hip, knee, back, shoulder ...etc., and sleeping in a bed is uncomfortable.

Think outside the box.

 

[Robert Hairless]

My preference is slugs.
I also practice taking head shots (or similar*) to replicate a hostage situation.

...

I just use plain vanilla bone stock shotguns, with plain vanilla slugs, btw...
Err...well I really really like Brenneke's , just cannot count on always having them...
...
FWIW, I try not to shoot "flat" or one dimensional targets. Life is not that way.
Targets are off to one side, crooked, slanted, partially turned, two/ three dimensional targets...

Awerbuck, do a search on his targets.

A hostage is in front, innocent bystanders are behind, everyone is moving, and only the bad guy's head is exposed and it is moving too

Maximum of three seconds for one head shot, no hitting the hostage or the innocents, no alibis, and Louis is talking to distract you.

Do it with a shotgun (slugs of course) and do it with a handgun.

 

[Jeff White]

Maximum of three seconds for one head shot, no hitting the hostage or the innocents, no alibis, and Louis is talking to distract you.

Do it with a shotgun (slugs of course) and do it with a handgun.

We started loaded with buck and had to do a select slug drill before we engaged when I took Louis' course.

Jeff

 

[DomMega]

Why not just load it with a more calculated round, these are what I use.

That'll do some pretty devastating and accurate damage and it doesn't spread.

 

[newbie222]

read my name before reading my reply

there are two ways to not miss a target:

1. DON'T shoot it

2. PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE

shotgun or handgun, the only way to avoid shooting the wrong target, if you have to shoot, is by practicing at the range. if youre afraid of hitting a freindly then its because your not confident in your weapon or your shooting (aim). so change your weapon if you like and/or practice scenarios at the range...

 

[tanksoldier]

If it's something that you're really worried about you need to move into a house with a better security setup. Our last house the entire upper floor and all bedroms could be defended from the master suite while reasonably concealed and under decent cover. In the current house the master suite is the same, but all other bedrooms are on ground floor. We'll move before any little ones need their own room.

In a hostage situation there's always the chance that the BG will kill the hostage before you can act, or that there will be a flyer from your buckshot round or some other event will occur. The MOST likely outcome, (if you are proficient with your weapon system AND your family members have been trained on how to react if taken hostage) is the BG will give up, flee or be killed. You can always transition to a handgun if you feel the range is too great for reliable buckshot use and the backstop not suitable for slugs.

 

[Soybomb]

I take you've never actually patterned a shotgun at across the room distance. The shot pattern won't be much much bigger then the bore at most home defense distances. There is a chance you could injure a bystander with the wad though.

Thats pretty much everything right there.

I took a young lady out to shoot a 12ga for the first time last weekend. After firing it she said "that wasn't nearly as bad as I thought....but its too heavy." Immediately after that she looked at her target hanging about 7 yards away and asked why it looked like she made 2 big holes with just 1 shot.

 

[Fred Fuller]

That'll do some pretty devastating and accurate damage and it doesn't spread.
========================

Ummhmmm. Sabot slugs.

Shoot it on paper at close range and count the holes. Those sabot segments gotta go somewhere when they peel off, and they can cause injury or worse if they hit an innocent.

One company's neat new slug design last year had a plastic ball supporting the hollow base of a Foster type slug. Guess how many holes in a target that slug load made sometimes? And we had the plastic balls bouncing all the way back to the 50-yard line off steel swinging plates too.

Once again, know for sure what your load will do at close range (3 feet out to 21 feet) and know what you can do with it. There are no substitutes for patterning, training and practice with a defensive shotgun.

lpl/nc

 

[hso]

If you haven't shot it at the ranges you'll need it out of the type of gun you will use you can not know what the results will be, you're only making assumptions based on gun mythology.


Pattern your weapon with the ammo you want to use.

Train with someone that can teach perfect technique.

Practice until you can't make a mistake. (lovely goal, but don't assume it's possible, so you continue to practice throughout your life in hopes of minimizing your error when it's time to perform under stress)

 

[TallPine]

Offset and holdover is something you need to be aware of at close quarters with a lot of weapons.

Yeah, I've shot (or rather missed) rattlesnakes at very short ranges

Actually took me a while to figure out why all my shots were hitting in the dirt below/in front of the snake. Snake was not amused though ... but 12 rounds of .22LF later, he/she was feeling rather poorly.

The best way to deal with a hostage situation is to never get into one in the first place

 

[wdlsguy]

The shot pattern won't be much much bigger then the bore at most home defense distances.

That isn't the case with my shotgun (14" cylinder bore) shooting Federal LE132-00. Isn't the "rule of thumb" an inch of spread per yard?

 

[El Tejon]

When it comes to shotgun use inside the home, I've always liked Massad Ayoob's analogy in that the shotgun is artillery. Artillery that will be shooting into a pre-plotted area (e.g. FPF).

Pattern your weapon. Need to know where it is with your ammunition. You very well may be in a hostage situation. Contrary to previous posts, I've had cases of hostages/wrestling matches once the home invader is inside the house.

Move bookcases or furniture around to assist in your compliance with Rule #4. Know where everyone is. Know how angles will impact your shot.

Get trained up. A class from Awerbuck, Thunder Ranch or Gunsite (inter alia) is a great benefit.

 

[Robert Hairless]

Jeff White:

We started loaded with buck and had to do a select slug drill before we engaged when I took Louis' course.

Jeff

We probably did the same, Jeff. Louis prepares for real world situations.

El Tejon, I agree about the value of Mas' analogy that the shotgun is artillery that will be shooting into a pre-plotted area. It has been (still is, actually) extremely useful. We've analyzed our own home in those terms.

There's synchronicity among the best instructors and what they teach, even when there are different approachs and techniques. Good instruction is worth more than it costs.

 

[CWL]

I've patterned my HD shotgun. My 1201fp + Federal reduced recoil 00 shells will make headshots anywhere in my home & hallways.

Have taken and then retaken shotgun SD courses including low-light classes.

Do I want to shoot around a loved-one to hit a BG in the head? No. Am I able to -yes.

Slugs indoors? Why not use a carbine?