Home defense shotgun
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buckhorn_cortez
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Oh boy...another "it's pumps or nothing" thread. I own both, and if an automatic is setup correctly, kept clean (and why wouldn't you?), and quality shells are used, it is absolutely as reliable as a pump, easier to clear (if you know how), and impossible to short stroke.
If you're going to use the shotgun for home (self) defense it behooves you to run at least 500 rounds through it of different types of loads to find if it likes or dislikes certain types of loads, and if it does avoid those.
Most three gun shooters will use an automatic because theirs are tuned for reliability, they know the gun and how to clear the gun rapidly if a jam occurs.
I prefer my FN SLP, it's been tuned for reliability and will shoot mixed rounds of 1 oz bird shot, #1 and 00 buck, slugs, and Winchester PDX1. I have put close to 750 rounds through it in the last month and it has never malfunctioned. I trust it to operate as reliably as any other action - but, I keep it clean and know how to clear it if needed.
The idea that police departments use them because of reliability is a bit of a carnard as gun purchasing usually comes down to the lowest priced gun that will operate reliably - not necessarily the best gun that will operate reliably.
I don't think the Marines would go to a gas operated shotgun in a combat situation if they were not convinced that the weapon would operate reliably - and more importantly had tested the reliability - especially since the Benelli is probably 3x the price of the Mossberg pump (even at government bid prices).
If you're going to use the shotgun for home (self) defense it behooves you to run at least 500 rounds through it of different types of loads to find if it likes or dislikes certain types of loads, and if it does avoid those.
Most three gun shooters will use an automatic because theirs are tuned for reliability, they know the gun and how to clear the gun rapidly if a jam occurs.
I prefer my FN SLP, it's been tuned for reliability and will shoot mixed rounds of 1 oz bird shot, #1 and 00 buck, slugs, and Winchester PDX1. I have put close to 750 rounds through it in the last month and it has never malfunctioned. I trust it to operate as reliably as any other action - but, I keep it clean and know how to clear it if needed.
The idea that police departments use them because of reliability is a bit of a carnard as gun purchasing usually comes down to the lowest priced gun that will operate reliably - not necessarily the best gun that will operate reliably.
I don't think the Marines would go to a gas operated shotgun in a combat situation if they were not convinced that the weapon would operate reliably - and more importantly had tested the reliability - especially since the Benelli is probably 3x the price of the Mossberg pump (even at government bid prices).
Do you know specifically what he did not like about it? I know it is 2nd hand info, but I am curious.
As to the debate between pump vs auto, I am not really interested in that debate. I'm sure there are quality shotguns in both versions that will do the job. If I were to go pump, I'd almost certainly go with the Rem or Moss because of price and reputation. However I am looking to go auto, but am not going to spend $1k+ for a Benelli. So the Stoeger at under $500 seems like it might fit the bill. Still I am not going to buy one without doing my homework. Anyone have a comment about the video I posted?
I would recommend a Browning A-5 auto. Over 30 years of deer and grouse hunting I have yet to see one of those guns fail to return to battery. Not one mishap of any kind and these guns were hunted hard, in all kinds of weather and they never failed to fire or feed. The other benefit of this gun is that if you run out of ammo, you can always use it as one hell of a heavy club. 
I've actually had some involvement in military procurement processes and I'll just say a lot goes into those decisions that doesn't concern a private citizen choosing his gear one iota. They have many concerns that private citizens/individuals do not. And as you stated there are moves being made to autos anyhow.
Well perhaps not an assault rifle since full auto is too expensive for most folks, but an AR is a perfectly logical choice and a lot of very knowledgeable people go that route
Go to a three gun match you see plenty of people having issues with their pumps. No an individual may never have such issues. In that same vein there are people with auto loaders that have never failed them. Again it is just not a situation where across the board one is hands down better or worse than the other.
I should have written, second hand anecdotal as the bases instead of zero, sorry. You'll forgive me if I put little stock in someone's opinion of a give weapon system if they have no first hand experience with it.
You honoestly don't think more people have 870s than Benelli M4s because the 870 has been available for aprox 60 years and only costs a few hundred dollars. The M4 has past millitary trials so I'm not really sure what that has to do with it one way or another. One cannot expect a product that has only been on the market for 10 years to be as widespread as on that has been available since '51 even if price was the same. No add in that one is price prohibitive for a large share of the market. Look at the point being made that I was responding to and think about it. Those two facts are certainly going to influence why one gun is found in more closets than another.
Nothing wrong with a difference of opinion. I used to think that but changed my mind that a pump is per se superior after more practical style shooting and exposure to a wider array of auto loaders. From an empirical stand point I can say, only for me, a pump is not better than my current auto gun. I run the auto gun faster and smoother by the objective measures available to me. I always say things like this are silly to argue about, get your guns hit the range and see what works. People may come to different conclusions for themselves.
By across the board I meant in the hands of every single person. For some people they certainly are better. As you may have gathered I'm not saying a pump is "better" across the board either.
My experience has been that not even pumps are 100% reliable in most peoples hands. I've seen a number of 870s have issues with cheap wal mart winchester bulk. I have a Saiga 12 (one of a few I own) that has never had a hicup with anything I've put in it, bird shot to buck to slugs . Will that continue for ever? IDK. Nothing yet in about 2K rounds. I also can think of a particular A5 that I never saw have an issue in about ten years of hunting and shooting clays. Maybe it had one somewhere at some time but I never saw it or heard about it. I've actually never had an auto loader have a failure with a defensive load.
Gord
Member
Balrog said:
my earlier post said:
Ta-da.
bushmaster1313
Member
No mechanical device is 100% perfect.
But if the gun is a modern gun in good condition, and your first case of shells cycles without a hiccup, odds are very good that the next two or three shells that you might neeed in a Home Defense situation will cycle just fine.
But if the gun is a modern gun in good condition, and your first case of shells cycles without a hiccup, odds are very good that the next two or three shells that you might neeed in a Home Defense situation will cycle just fine.
ArmedLiberal
Member
It looks to me like you're trying to get away with buying one of the least expensive semi-auto shotguns.
Semi-auto SGs have a reputation for being a little fussy. Some work well with a particular brand and load of shell but not with others. Some require frequent adjustment or cleaning to work reliably. In a broad sense you get what you pay for, the more expensive ones tend to be of better quality and reliability.
In my experience pump shotguns are never fussy about ammo and never require adjustment to shoot with 99.99% reliability.
And you're trying to buy one of the least expensive semi-auto shotguns and want to bet your life on it.
The Stoeger model you've linked to is not very widely known, hasn't had thousands of gunners putting hundreds of rounds through it over many years so there is not as much information about it or affection for it that other models have. You're pretty much on your own to buy it and try it out and see if it suits you.
Semi-auto SGs have a reputation for being a little fussy. Some work well with a particular brand and load of shell but not with others. Some require frequent adjustment or cleaning to work reliably. In a broad sense you get what you pay for, the more expensive ones tend to be of better quality and reliability.
In my experience pump shotguns are never fussy about ammo and never require adjustment to shoot with 99.99% reliability.
And you're trying to buy one of the least expensive semi-auto shotguns and want to bet your life on it.
The Stoeger model you've linked to is not very widely known, hasn't had thousands of gunners putting hundreds of rounds through it over many years so there is not as much information about it or affection for it that other models have. You're pretty much on your own to buy it and try it out and see if it suits you.
hardworker
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The people who love pump shotguns are the same type of people who love a stick shift car for the fun of it. If you enjoy pumping it, get one, otherwise a quality automatic will get the job done.
Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
Here's my take.....
While I'm a long time 870 fan, I've absolutely nothing against autos as "Serious" shotguns.
The essential criteria are....
Reliability. Pumps have this in spades, but newer autos are close behind. Any repeater that will pass Ayoob's Reliability Test of 200 rounds of "Duty" ammo glitchfree qualifies. Good PM and some TLC help make this happen.
Ammo. Most pumps will work with some really odd stuff, like beanbag rounds, 3/4 oz training loads, etc. How important this is for a given owner and mission is purely subjective.
Ergonomics. Most gas autos have the same recoil as similar pumps, but spread it out over time in a way that our brains interpret as less kick. This doesn't apply to inertia and recoil operated actions like most Benellis and the A5/11/520 squareback.
Ease of operating comes in here, especially under stressful and dangerous conditions. Frequent use and expertise are major factors in this. Loading,load selection, safety engagement and so on are best taught by repetition.
Regardless of its action style, the best repeater to have is one you know like your tongue knows your teeth.
Good defensive shotguns of known utility are neither scarce nor expensive. Rather than getting a Third World cheapo that may or may not hold up at an extremely important point use the same amount of money to acquire a used repeater of known make.
Buy something with a few decades of use behind it and learn to run it......
While I'm a long time 870 fan, I've absolutely nothing against autos as "Serious" shotguns.
The essential criteria are....
Reliability. Pumps have this in spades, but newer autos are close behind. Any repeater that will pass Ayoob's Reliability Test of 200 rounds of "Duty" ammo glitchfree qualifies. Good PM and some TLC help make this happen.
Ammo. Most pumps will work with some really odd stuff, like beanbag rounds, 3/4 oz training loads, etc. How important this is for a given owner and mission is purely subjective.
Ergonomics. Most gas autos have the same recoil as similar pumps, but spread it out over time in a way that our brains interpret as less kick. This doesn't apply to inertia and recoil operated actions like most Benellis and the A5/11/520 squareback.
Ease of operating comes in here, especially under stressful and dangerous conditions. Frequent use and expertise are major factors in this. Loading,load selection, safety engagement and so on are best taught by repetition.
Regardless of its action style, the best repeater to have is one you know like your tongue knows your teeth.
Good defensive shotguns of known utility are neither scarce nor expensive. Rather than getting a Third World cheapo that may or may not hold up at an extremely important point use the same amount of money to acquire a used repeater of known make.
Buy something with a few decades of use behind it and learn to run it......
I am forced to skip the semi-auto route and stick with my Winchester Defender or 870. Both worked great in combat. I have a personal preference for the Winchester but either way I know they both are dependable and I have mine loaded, safety off. Pick it up and rack. Guaranteed the next sound you hear will be feet running the other way.
Just for the record Turkey is not a third world country. Its actually a first world country. I'm not really sure what dated cold war geopolitical classifications have to do with gun buying. Their are weapons from the third world that I would buy and weapons from the first world I wouldn't.
RSVP2RIP
Member
It's actually a second world country as defined by the UN, but then again, given a choice, I would rather put food on the table here in the US (especially in this economic climate) than abroad given the abundant choices of domestic products we have. Don't get me wrong, I do have a few import guns, but my first choice would be a USA made product. Call me nationalistic if you must... For under $600 you could find a Remington 11/87 when on sale. The Ithaca defense model sels for $400...Rem/Mossberg pumps even less. Mossberg has an autoloader, the 930 Special Purpose with a MSRP of $561.
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Snubby 38
Member
Stoeger P-350 Pump Personal Defense
I just purchased the P-350 pump and couldn't be happier. Fit and finish are really nice and the action is smooth and tight. Say what you may about Stoeger, but it's a lot of gun for $300. The Turks do a nice job and the NRA review was right on the money. It's not a gun you'll shot 24/7, but it'll do the job. I also have a Stoeger Coach Gun along with a Zephyr Woodlander II that I've had since 1970, it's imported by Stoeger from Spain and it shoots great and never had a problem. Lucky you say, maybe, but I'd buy another one tomorrow if this one disappeared.
I just purchased the P-350 pump and couldn't be happier. Fit and finish are really nice and the action is smooth and tight. Say what you may about Stoeger, but it's a lot of gun for $300. The Turks do a nice job and the NRA review was right on the money. It's not a gun you'll shot 24/7, but it'll do the job. I also have a Stoeger Coach Gun along with a Zephyr Woodlander II that I've had since 1970, it's imported by Stoeger from Spain and it shoots great and never had a problem. Lucky you say, maybe, but I'd buy another one tomorrow if this one disappeared.
CoRoMo
Member
The CZ 712 Utility shotgun gets no attention.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=204038660
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=204038660
What's wrong with the Winchester Defender 1300? 7+1, 12ga, it'll shoot 3" mag, pump you can pick them up $300 NIB. I have one & it's got permanant "inside home" Home Defense duty. If it goes "outside" I have AR's for that.
Did I miss some put of the thread that said Remingtons only?
Did I miss some put of the thread that said Remingtons only?
No it is not limited to Rem. As a matter of fact I started out by asking if Stoeger was a good alternative to a semi I enjoyed shooting, that being it's more famous cousin, the Benelli.
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