home defense- slugs vs. Buck shot

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You ALWAYS have to plan on ANY load from ANY gun overpenetrating.

Really? What is your definition of overpenetrating? For example, if I was to use #8 birdshot, I should plan on it penetrating the equivilent of 16-20 inches of gelatin? What about rock salt?

Maybe people choose ammo and guns with the idea that the risk of one overpenetrating is less than an alternate choice? Not that it can never happen?
 
well, my neighbor is about 50 yards away and their house is made of bricks, do you think a slug would penetrate my walls and theirs as well?

It will penetrate your walls, even if it's brick. It may or may not penetrate your neighbors' wall after that. It could penetrate your wall, then a neighbor's window. Or penetrate your window, then a neighbor's wall.

Buckshot and slug will both penetrate interior walls with ease. The question is whether or not you have to worry about penetrating exterior walls. If you have neighbors within shooting range, stick to buckshot.
 
Kindrox-

You certainly can't take for granted that it WON'T. Are YOU going to stand your kid after a bad guy and two layers of sheet rock, shoot through with ANYTHING, and hope for the best? This is why you can't make 'lower penetration ammo' part of your plan. It ALL has the possibility. You might as well use the most EFFECTIVE ammo. Not just in the home, EVERYWHERE.
 
Reduced recoil 00 buck in the tube and side saddle and reduced recoil 1oz slugs in the butt cuff. If you are not sure about your load, go shoot something like a pumpkin at 10 yards and see what your stuff will do. I use high v #6 in 3 gun matches instead of buck, and the bird shot works well for knocking plates over. Wouldn't use it for HD though.
 
You certainly can't take for granted that it WON'T. Are YOU going to stand your kid after a bad guy and two layers of sheet rock, shoot through with ANYTHING, and hope for the best? This is why you can't make 'lower penetration ammo' part of your plan. It ALL has the possibility. You might as well use the most EFFECTIVE ammo. Not just in the home, EVERYWHERE.

Humans have the intelligence to evaluate risk factors. Slugs and shot may have the potential to both penetrate the same, but odds are they won't.
 
RE: slugs and penetration,

According to a forensics book I have, your typical Foster slugs rarely penetrate the human torso; they end up pancaking or breaking up into a few large pieces. The author did numerous autopsies of people hit with such. Buckshot was the same, rarely penetrating the torso unless the range was very close. This bodes with my testing on slugs on penetrating water bottles; they flatten/pancake upon penetration of a soft target and this inhibits their penetration greatly, but it also creates a much large wound track, of course. People who hunt deer with lead slugs will probably find a similar thing, i.e., the slug resting on the off side that was hit just under the skin.

If you hit what you're aiming at, there's no need to worry about "overpenetration" with buckshot or slugs. So practice, then practice some more.

As for me, I like the standard high velocity 9 pellet load of 00 buckshot (Winchester 00SG). I've tested it at various ranges, and I know where it hits and how it patterns. I like it over slugs for the simple reason of putting nine holes in the target rather than one, which equates to a greater chance of striking a main artery for example, which will lead to quicker incapacitation (which is death).
 
So......are you going to stand your kids in front of it, with two layers of sheetrock to protect them?

It is hard to make predictions, particularly of the future. If my life is in danger, I might have to take that shot.

A question for you is, will you "stand" your neighbor's kids up between you, 10 layers of sheetrock and 2 layers of siding, and take a shot with a slug?
 
Since picking up shotgun fever about six months ago I have read just about every defensive shotgun book in print, read every website currently on the errornet, read almost every HD shotgun post here and elsewhere, and picked Lee L.'s brain repeatedly (he's the resident shotgun guru). I've also tested/patterned a whole lot of different brands and sizes of buckshot and slugs. And here's what I do for home defense, armed with all that info ...

... a simple, 18.5", bead-sighted, cylinder bored, Streamlight mounted, Remington 870 with 6 rounds of Remington 2 3/4" 00 buck in the tube and 6 more on the caddie. Plain old Wally World 2 3/4" 00 buck held the best patterns, allowed quicker follow-up shots, and were relatively inexpensive. I keep it simple, because simple works.

My hunting set-up is quite different. But HD? Keep it simple.
 
You may be underestimating the power and trajectory of heavy .729 caliber slugs. Think ".45-70 Government" and you'll be in the right ballpark. Here's a piece of "bulletproof" polycast acrylic, from the Box o'Truth:

Yes the slug passed through the acrylic when the two bullets did not but I believe that test was more about mass then penetration. You give me a .308 and I can shoot through a bullet proof jacket but a slug will not. Does that prove disprove the box of truth? No, just different parameters.

You cannot make me believe that one ounce of soft lead will pass through my interior wall, the exterior wall, and then still maintain it's trajectory, assuming that I miss.

You also cannot make me believe that one ounce of soft lead is more dangerous than a FMJ load that I might load into a 9mm. These rounds are known for over penetration. I will stick with my slugs.
 
I was thinking I could alternate, hit them first with the buck shot and then hit them with a slug if they are still moving, although I would most likely try to remove their leg at the knee with the slug if it comes to it

why couldn't I use a slug? Dead is dead, if I take someone's head off with some 00 buck from 10ft. away, why would it bee any diferent than a slug (granted a slug might paint my walls, but they need a new coat anyway)?

You're a sick puppy, L666.

Don
 
One year at Camp Perry I was squadded with a Toledo Cop. They carried shotguns. I asked him about the effectiveness of buckshot. Buckshot is very effective on humans. Devastingly effective.
 
Kindrox- I don't assume that ANY shotgun round won't overpenetrate. I use #4 buck, but I could see the possibility of keeping slugs in the sidesaddle for the possibility that you need to shoot through something. If you have them, then you have the option.
 
One last comment

Of course buckshot provides more knowdown power than than birdshot. If that's the only criterion, then buckshot easily wins. But, in my house, it's not. Realistically, any "justifiable" shooting in our house is going to be at close range -- 15 or 20 feet tops. Birdshot will stop most intruders at that distance. Not as well as 00 buck, but down is down. The difference is that stray pellets are not going through a wall or door.

For what it's worth, I've spoken at length to a former FBI agent and Chicago street cop about this very subject. The consensus is that buckshot is obviously more lethal, but too dangerous to loved ones in a confined area.
 
Unfortunately the use of a firearm in a defense situation it implies some level of risk (if you do not have a firearm it is worse for sure!!)

I'm not going to use birdshot against an intruder..I want him down for good....that means buckshot.....there must a be a reaosn why 00 buckshot is so popular for HD....
 
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actually what you should do is look at remingtons ammunition for shotguns. the corelokt jhp slugs in sabots for 12 and 20 ga. the leave entrance holes that would make a handgunner with a 454 proud of, and exit holes that look like you used a 30-06. and they really dont pose as much structural risk as solid slugs, but however pass through more stuff behind a deer then buckshot.
however, these jhp will do far far far more injury to something that it hits. just about liquifies a deers chest at 50 yards.

since your considering buckshot for self defense, have you considered a small caliber pistol in a similar bore diameter as the buckshot is? if a 9 pellet load of .32 caliber buckshot is good for sd in your opinion, why not have a 32 acp with a 18 round magazine? each bullet will have the same amount of energy as each shotgun pellet as it leaves the barrel.
 
The advantage of a shotgun is the option to select a wide range of shot. My circumstances are a rural location where the shotgun will most likely be deployed against small varmints but could and have encounted larger animals including bears. My typical loading is one round of #4 buckshot up first followed by Brenneke slugs. Birdshot is reserved for the birds.
 
In real life, you cannot assume you will get that hit, no matter how much practice you have.
Of course, but the more you practice, the more likely it is that you'll hit the target. Criminals rarely go prone and fire from behind cover a few hundred meters away, like in military applications, so your chances of hitting are fairly good if you know how to use your weapon. I'm quite certain I'd have a 100% hit chance at 10 meters and under in the "real world" with my shotgun, as I do in somewhat stressful situations, like hunting and sport/competitions.

I know that I haven't missed at typical self-defense ranges in practice and hunting, I know that 00 buckshot won't penetrate a human unless it's very close range (muzzle against skin); I know for a fact that birdshot has terrible penetration, unless the muzzle is pretty much against the skin (it doesn't even completely penetrate rabbits in my experience; I've moved up to BB shot for them).

I'd take the most likely scenario, and that's hitting what I'm aiming at and using effective ammunition (with the chance of missing for some unforeseen reason), then to hit [and still possibly miss for the same unforeseen reason] with ammunition that might not stop the unprovoked attack. The chance of a errant pellet passing through several walls and hitting someone is far, far less than the chances of me missing the target at under 10 meters.

I also make sure my muzzle never sweeps the room of anyone due to effective training; hold at low ready and shoulder once the situation is justified lethal force.

All common defensive pistols and rifles will penetrate more in flesh and most types of housing materials than 00 buckshot, and Foster slugs too on torso hits.
 
I keep hearing about how slugs overpenatrate and I think it depends.

Brenneke slugs most defineatly, they are solid unlike the hollow Foster slug.

Ballistic gel testing indicates that standard 12 ga foster slugs will not overpenetrate as they expand and break up easily.

In both of these ballistics gelatin test, the slugs never penetrated the 16 inches of gelatin and in fact penetrated around 12-15 inches with excellent expansion, which according to the FBI is the sweet spot of penetration. The FBI doesnt really consider it overexpansion until 18 inches or more.

Brenneke slugs are quite different from the soft led foster slugs.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Excel_files/12%20gauge%203%20inch%20magnum%20slug%20summary%20Excel%2097%20to%202003%20format.xls

http://www.brassfetcher.com/12gaugeFedTacSlug.html
 
I don't have any experiances with buckshot, in germany sportshooting is most times done with birdshot or slugs. so if I were in a HD-situation, geco competition slugs would be my choice, because i'm most used to shooting them.
 
since your considering buckshot for self defense, have you considered a small caliber pistol in a similar bore diameter as the buckshot is? if a 9 pellet load of .32 caliber buckshot is good for sd in your opinion, why not have a 32 acp with a 18 round magazine? each bullet will have the same amount of energy as each shotgun pellet as it leaves the barrel.


First, a single 0.33 pellet has more energy than a 32 ACP as the muzzle velocity of the 00 Buckshot I use is 1325 fps vs. 850-900, at best, for the 32 Auto...you can use the Hornady TAP 00 buckshot load which reach 1600 fps!!!

Yes I know the actual pellet is a bit lighter than a .32 bullet and it has worse sectional density....however, becauce of its much higher velocity, the energy is superior.


Second, when you shoot someone is like hitting him with nine 32 cal. bullets at the same time (15 if i use 3" shells),....the shock is a bit different!! :D:D
 
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You haven't done it when someone was shooting back.

And was he moving, quite possibly in an awkward direction? I am always amused at the "can't miss" crowd, like the criminal is going to phone up "Would 2pm work for you? Great! How about I use the front door? No? Ok your favorite ambush spot it is! See you there!" Then I guess they will warn the neightbors to leave, round up the kids and wife to get them down flat behind the ambush spot, and have at it :rolleyes:
 
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