Home Defense--use #7 Bird.

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Bootganger

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This is NOT from me. This is from a guy who really knew his stuff. I came up to him demanding buckshot for defense. He told me to use #7 bird.

Frankly, anybody who says that (insert your favorite "underpowered" round here) does nothing needs to demonstrate it with live ammo. His reasoning was pretty simple. Bird shot will decimate a large portion of flesh. It will not have penetration problems. It will kick less (actually, the same guy recommended a 2 3/4 load over a 3 1/2 load).

At that point, I even considered a 20 guage. I just figured to go with 12 guage to get ammo easier.

People need to think with their head, not their ego. Everyone needs to talk to the guy I talked to. You .45'ers, I'm talking to you :D :D :D .
 
OK. Imagine you are an organ in a thug's body. Would you liked to be obliterated, or have holes poked in you?

The large holes may miss the important stuff. Being blown apart will not.
 
It's not my reasoning. The guy looked pretty sharp--didn't belong in the box-store.

The choke won't allow more dispersion beyond the 4 inches. However, you are far more likely to get all 4 inches turned into hamburger. Get a higher velocity load if you want.

The fact remains that there are no shotgun self-defense rounds. We have no equivalent of the hollow-point. I actually ended up with #7 steel 12 guage, 2 3/4. He said it would do the job. I believe him.
 
Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't feel at all undergunned with #7 1/2 shot at close range, and I'd feel bad for the guy getting shot with it. However, I still believe 00 or 000 Buck is a better choice.
 
Bootganger,

Please read http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/173_11_041200/herdson/herdson.html .

Use whatever you prefer to load your defensive shotgun, for whatever reasons, based on the advice of whatever expert you choose to listen to and accept advice from. I am no expert, by the way.

Please note that with ANY firearm, you and your projectile(s) must accomplish two tasks- 1) placement, and 2) penetration. You as the shooter must strike vital areas with your shot(s). The projectiles you fire must penetrate sufficiently to reach the vitals.

Choose wisely- both your shotgun ammo and your experts,

lpl/nc
 
Yeah, I remember that story. Remember that it was a low angle.

In any case, the message is to use the 2 3/4 buckshot instead of the 3 1/2. Placement of the second shot takes precedence over a few more pellets. Don't get me started on the benefits of many 9mm over a few .45 :cuss: :cuss: .
 
My home defense weapon is a Remington 870 Tactical loaded with rifled slugs. As I see it, this affords major stopping power along with dispersement. With sabot slugs and buckshot, both of which I like, either you need to be spot on (sabot) or you need to worry about collateral damage (buckshot); I feel better knowing that I have three serious projectiles as opposed to one massive slug or several smaller pellets.

Comments?
 
I've got 12 gauge one ounce loads from Brenneke specifically designed for home defense. They're supposed to do max damage and not over penetrate.
 
Slugs are squirrely any way you look at it. Technically, it's a "weapon of mass destruction"--over a half inch. I don't want to bother with the idiot laws.
 
I'd like a huge dispersion, but our "friends" who make laws won't have that. Lacking a sawed-off, I'll go with what I can go with.

:banghead: Weapon laws. :banghead:
:cuss: :cuss: :cuss:
 
What state are you in? Depending on what state, you may be able to purchase/register a short-barreled shotgun - a "sawed off" as you put it. The National Firearms Act of 1934 allows for registration of these items, which costs $200 and can take anywhere from 2 to 6 months. :)
 
ok, i've personally seen more shotgun wounds than the majority of you, and i am going to come right out and say that trusting your life to birdshot in a defensive situation is STUPID. zero sugarcoating there ok. STUPID.

making an ugly wound, maybe blinding, maybe getting a 1 month later ICU death by infection or complications is a really dumb way to think about saving your own life.

the shotgun wounds that make it to the hospital and survive (mostly) are almost exclusively bad guys mistaken for pheasants.

birdshot is for birds.

with this kind of attitude, i'm surprised more people dont buy beanbags, or blanks. you CANT count on the psyke "OMG i've been shot" response. it doesnt stop everyone.


end rant
 
I think there are a lot of loads you can choose that will make the bad guy have a bad day, personally I have 00 reduced recoil 2 3/4 in my 870, if you choose something else, I am sure it can be just as effective
 
ok, i've personally seen more shotgun wounds than the majority of you, and i am going to come right out and say that trusting your life to birdshot in a defensive situation is STUPID. zero sugarcoating there ok. STUPID.
Click to expand...

+1. What he said.
 
A little story for you...

I am a Paramedic, and have seen GSW's. I once had a genius for a patient who shot himself with a 12 guage point plank in the thigh. The load?
Wolf 7 1/2 birdshot.
The wound? Well his thigh was the size of a watermelon, but the load did not penetrate throught the far side of his leg-no exit wound. It did not fracture his femur. He did not go into shock. He did not die.
I have seen several buckshot injuries...and most were bad, if not quickly fatal. It seems gang bangers do not know much about 12 guage loads.
The guy you know who "really knows his stuff" (or looks that way?)-well perhaps he dosen't
 
Permanent wound channels

I think that there is an application for bird-shot.

I used to live in an apartment.

I used a staged loading. The first two shells were #6 LEAD shot (better cross-sectional density) I forget what exactly I chose for the following five buckshot shells.

I chose bird-shot for the first two out of consideration for my neighbors on the other side of very thin walls. However, I figured if two shots from a 12 ga hadn't taken care of it then wall penetration was low on my list of concerns and it was time to get serious. I also figured that folks could try and take cover after a couple shots. Additionally, I suspected I would have close to adequate penetration with the bird shot at the close ranges within my apartment. I also wanted to give the bastard a small chance. I'm not really keen on the idea killing anybody.

The issue is mechanically stopping the intruder. There are some pretty financially blessed folks on the board here but I am not one of them. This means that if someone came and broke into my place they were crazy, on drugs, or really wanting to be on drugs again soon. This eliminates the psychological effects of being shot from my strategy.

Mechanically stopping the intruder is what is called for.

To do this one must break important parts of the intruder's body like vital organs.

To break these parts you want to make holes in them.

Holes are made by objects penetrating the body and the organs.

I wouldn't count on bird-shot penetrating more than four inches. It can penetrate farther but you can't count on it.

So what you want is permanent wound channels . . . lots of them.

That said I think 00 and 000 penetrate more than needed for an indoors home defense situation. It has been a while but if I remember correctly they can sail right through the body. My thought is more pellets like #1 buck.

Of course THAT said by last round of buck in my tube was 000!

No offense but I think the guy recommending steal #7 bird-shot was grossly misinformed.

Cook
 
I use #4 hevishot turkey loads inside my house- mini-30 shot is for the outside:neener: . Birdshot isn't worth a $h!+- been shot with the stuff at 15yards and although my coveralls had holes in them- I didn't. STEEL winchester expert dove loads- just like what you are considering. I had a zillion salt/pepper bruises and one cut on my ear. I literally looked into the barrel and saw red shell- the idiot was facing s.se pointing exactly at me when I noticed a dove fluttering my way. I ducked and got shot- HARD. yeah, I was red ant mad, and quit hunting public, but learned the truth about #7 steelshot. It's for the birds:rolleyes:
 
Short range they cant tell bird shot from slugs till they saw the stiff up on the table. not the best pick but it can and does kill up close.
 
I actually ended up with #7 steel 12 guage, 2 3/4. He said it would do the job. I believe him.
Click to expand...

I often joke that breath mints fired from a 12 ga at spitting distance will be lethal... but steel shot?

I can understand a heavy duplex turkey load like #2 mixed with #6 for a short range HD load.

Your suggested load is better than a pointed stick, but you may want to reconsider where you get your advice.

If you use the search function you'll find this is a very popular topic in shotguns.
 
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It's called 'bird shot' because it's designed for and suitable for birds. In fact if you look at shot size recommendations you will see that the larger the bird or animal the larger the shot !!!! It's a matter of penetration more than anything.
 
attachment.php

78 year old Harry Whittington, shot by Vice President Dick Cheney across the chest and head with birdshot.

I think I'll stick with low recoil 00 Buckshot, thank you.
 

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