Home Defense--use #7 Bird.

[mp510]

We have no equivalent of the hollow-point.

Most shotgun slugs are either hollow points, or will expand enough to do the job.
Even a 20 gauge. A cylinder bore 12 gauge is about .72". Hlollow point or not, I would like to see you after getting hit by one at close range. Many thousands of deer have fallen victim to shotguns slugs (and buckshot), and deer are descent sized critters, with wild muscles. I use 6 shot for shooting squirrels, and while some pellets penetrate well, others are just under the skin. 7 shot is even smaller. I would recommend going with a larger shot size, if possible. I would recommend buckshot.

 

[dfaugh]

With #7 1/2 shot you might not even penetrate heavy clothing.

I've played around with a few loads in my backyard shooting range, which has a few old appliances lined up for hanging targets, with tree trunks, behind, backstopped by dirt.

7 1/2 birdshot won't penetrate the (thin) sheet metal on the side of and appliance.

#4 heavy loads will MOSTLY penetrate one layer.

00 (3" magnum) buckshot, on the other hand, will blow completely through both sides (plus whateevers in the way on the inside) and still penetrate 1-3" into the wood.

So, IF I only had a shotgun, and IF I only had birdshot, that's what I'd use, and I have no doubt that it'll make a mess outa the BG at close range....But, basically, the heavier/bigger shot wins, especially since I don't have to worry much about over penetration.

 

[Okiecruffler]

I'm not going into my credientials here. The people who know me know I've seen enough GSW's to form a pretty decent opinion. I've seen people shot with 7 1/2, I've seen people shot with slugs. At the distances I would use a shotgun for, 10 yrds max, the difference between birdshot and heavy loads is slight. Beyond that, you start loosing penetration with the light shot pretty quick, I would imagine even more so with steelshot. I don't even have a social shotgun right now, but the wife loads her's with a couple of 4's and then the rest with OOO buck. If I were in a situation where shots might stretch out past 10 yrds I'd rethink that combo, but where we are now I'm comfortable.

 

[Guntalk]

Well, given what I've learned at Gunsite and Thunder Ranch, I am switching to the AR-15 for home protection.

Many police departments are switching from the shotgun to the carbine.

There are some good reasons, but as with all things, "it all depends."

 

[JohnBT]

I'm in the buck shot & slug camp, but I'm still pondering how useful the larger sizes of Hevi-Shot would be - something like their Dead Coyote loads with 50 T-sized pellets of .20" each. If it will kill coyotes at 100 yards it must have some other uses.

I can't find the picture from the magazine ad, but here's a quote from Guns & Ammo:

"At a recent Remington seminar held at Cody, Wyoming, I watched as a 3-inch load of No. 4s in lead, steel and Hevi-Shot were fired into eighth-inch thick metal targets at 40 yards. The steel shot lightly dented the target with minimal hits. Lead did somewhat better with more hits on target, but no penetration. The HS performance stunned me. Eighty percent of the pellets blew completely through, perforating the metal like a sieve."

And that was just #4 shot.

John

 

[enfield]

Suit yourself. I won't do it.

 

[Eat Beef]

I kept my HD shotgun loaded with #6 for years. Heard all of this "birdshot is bad" stuff and decided to try it out.

Next time I found a dead cow, I did some tests. I shot a (already dead from disease, but fresh) cow in the neck (about 10" thick) from different distances. I used an 870 30" full and Rem shur shot (el cheapo) #6.

At 10 feet the shot penetrated completely thru, wad and all. Left a hole just larger than 12 ga.

At 15 feet it did the same, but the wad hung in the far side skin. Again, 12ga hole.

At 20 feet, there was very little penetration. 4" maximum (prolly less), and a nasty wound about the size of a golf ball.

At 25 feet there was no penetration, just an ugly pattern about the size of your hand. Sure, maybe a few pellets sunk in, but it wouldn't have dropped anyone.

Note that these distances are in feet, not yards. 15 feet is VERY close, way too close for comfort, close enough that if someone is coming for you, you aren't going to get another shot off before they're on you.

Also note that this is a 30" full, not an 18" cylinder. I don't want to be shot with ANYTHING at ANY RANGE, but I'm not a big believer in birdshot anymore.

Birdshot will do nasty things at extremely close range, but almost nothing at mid range or thru light cover. Buckshot on the other hand will blow right thru (both) car doors @ 25 yards.

Guess which one I'm loading now.

 

[tuna]

Doesn't anyone hunt??? How many times have you shot a pheasant, grouse, quail or dove with #6, #71/2, #8 or #9 shot at close range (say 10 - 15 yards as a real close hunting shot) and had to pick pellets out of the meat? I love my shotguns, but if it won't turn a little bird into dust, I don't want my life depening on it.
Sighting in slugs for deer season usually makes me cry like a little girl after a while (well, not really, but you know what I mean). If it does that to me, I won't mind using it to protect myself.
Just my opinion.

 

[ArmedBear]

At 10 feet the shot penetrated completely thru, wad and all. Left a hole just larger than 12 ga.

At 15 feet it did the same, but the wad hung in the far side skin. Again, 12ga hole.

At 20 feet, there was very little penetration. 4" maximum (prolly less), and a nasty wound about the size of a golf ball.

These results may actually be exactly what you want, depending on the situation. Currently, I live in the 8th largest city in the US, with some of the most expensive real estate, so we live a lot closer together than people who have acreage.

There are few shots inside my home that would be longer than 15'. I think that the longest wall-to-wall distance is 21', so if I figure that I'm standing in front of the wall and so is an intruder, that's about 15'.

On the other sides of my walls are neighbors, and soon, a baby.

So, the best load I can imagine would be one that blasts a 12 Gauge hole clean through someone who wants to hurt/kill my family, but loses steam before it hits anyone else. Sounds like I'll swap the 00 Buck out, and put in some of my Quail load.

 

[JohnBT]

Sounds like my house, but my exterior walls are 14 inches of solid brick.


"Doesn't anyone hunt???"

Sure do, ducks and geese, and I use #4 & #6 Hevi-Shot. It's density is greater than lead and it's harder than lead, so it loses less steam downrange and penetrates a heck of lot better than lead. And now you can get pellets with greater density than Hevi-Shot.

John

 

[Axman]

I have my 12 ga loaded with #1 buck right now. Someone about 10 years ago gave me a couple of cartridges of the stuff and I just use that "just in case" I need to defend my home. While the #1 may not be as large of pellets, I think it would suffice better than anything with smaller pellets. For hunting deer I don't even use my 12 ga as it is mostly used for turkey, geese, duck, etc.

 

[One of Many]

There was a self defense show on TV recently, where the "expert" said he preferred 7 1/2 shot for an in house shooting situation, because it limits damage to people on the other side of the wall. They showed the result of buckshot hitting a drywall panel and also 7 1/2 shot hitting the panel. At across the room distances, the buckshot had no spread whatever, and blew a clean hole through the panel. The 7 1/2 shot spread out to about 4 inches, and did not completely penetrate the panel.

The emphasis was on AIMED fire of the shotgun, since it will not spread into a large pattern at close distances, and hitting an attacker requires more effort than just pointing in the general direction.

The lack of penetration is considered to be a good feature in an apartment type situation, where many people live close together with thin walls separating them. Killing your neighbor with buckshot while defending against an attacker is not a good idea. Hitting an attacker with 7 1/2 shot will hurt significantly, and may stop an attacker (which is what we want - we don't want to unnecessarily kill the attacker). 7 1/2 shot to the face, or several shots to the body should deter an attacker, and send them to the hospital for treatment, where they will be arrested by the police.

In less densely populated areas, or where you know there is no danger of injuring someone on the other side of the wall, or where longer distances are going to be involved in a defensive shooting, small sized buckshot will be a more effective stopper, but we must as responsible shooters consider the basic rule - know what is behind your target, and hold your fire if injury will result to someone other than the intended target.

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

may stop an attacker (which is what we want...

I bet most people would prefer "definately stop" over "may stop" any day. Realistically, you might only ever get to "very probably stop", but that kicks the hell out of "may".

 

[Shifty]

you guys need to be really careful about what you say on here, some young impressionable types may just listen.

i dont care how many shotgun wounds you think you have seen, please believe me that birdshot is a really bad idea. i've seen people die from it too, but those are the exception to the rule, and it sure as hell didnt "stop" them.

unique experience a few years back.... lady gets shot by crazy ex. small size target load to right breast, close enough that the breast was hamburger about 4-5 inches diameter with the shot cup embedded in the tissue. other shot was buck 8-9 entrance sites in a 5 inch diameter area in the abdomen, with 6 exit wounds on left lower flank.

she was talking "sort of" when she came in. i lost track of her after she left my area that day and never followed up but i do believe she lived.

please stop "the at close range its all the same" nonsense. lightweight shot is not something you want to stake your life or the lives of your family on.

be careful with your internet "expert" advice, you may contribute to some schmuck getting himself killed.

 

[SkunkApe]

Doesn't anyone hunt??? How many times have you shot a pheasant, grouse, quail or dove with #6, #71/2, #8 or #9 shot at close range (say 10 - 15 yards as a real close hunting shot) and had to pick pellets out of the meat? I love my shotguns, but if it won't turn a little bird into dust, I don't want my life depening on it.

- tuna

Exactly. One of these days I'm going to run a poll with these four options:

1) I have hunted small game with birdshot, and I think its adequate for self-defense.

2) I have hunted small game with birdshot, and I think its inadequate for self-defense.

3) I have not hunted small game with birdshot, and I think its adequate for self-defense.

4) I have not hunted small game with birdshot, and I think its inadequate for self-defense.

I doubt number one will get many votes.

 

[Ben Shepherd]

7 1/2 isn't even *adaquate* for 7 pound jack rabbits past 30 feet. Sure isn't *adaquate* for 200 pound methheads at 15.

00 buck or slugs for serious applications. Or at close range or when trying to severly limit penetration, a turkey duplex load as mentioned above.

 

[Limeyfellow]

And if all else fail pull out your 10 gauge double barrelled 3 1/2 inch magnum buckshot load from hell. That tends to do the job.

 

[Charles S]

I don’t know why I bother.

SkunkApe, I would like to see your pole.

I worked in a trauma teaching facility in Shreveport, LA for several years. I have worked in a level II trauma center in East Texas (no longer accredited). I have seen a lot of penetrating trauma.

I have hunted for 20+ years now and shot everything from Doves to Deer with shotguns. I have killed little hogs and big boars with a shotgun.

I have taken classes in using the shotgun for self defense. I have read what the experts recommend.

Every expert I have taken classes from or read has recommended buckshot as the minimum loading.

Ask Mr. Ayoob he is a member of this board. Ask Mr. Jim Cirrilo what he thinks; he has been in more than a few gunfights. Ask Clint Smith.

Here is an excellent rule of thumb. If you won’t shoot an 80-150 lb deer with it when your life does not depend on it, are you going to trust that same load to stop a 180-200 lb man when your life does?

On the other hand….I have had an “expert” on this board PM me and tell me my 15 some odd years experience in critical care and trauma meant nothing, my 20 + years hunting meant nothing. My classes in self defense from various experts meant nothing. That he knew more than Ayoob, Cirrilo, Cooper, Farnam, Izumi, Jordan, Miculek, Smith, and Taylor people who I have read, and in some cases had the privilege of taking a class from or speaking with. This “expert” stated he knew more than all of the above mentioned experts (flatly refusing to name his credentials) I had openly discussed mine and the classes I took on the THR. Told me I did not know what I was talking about and 7 ½ shot was perfect for home defense.

I am sticking with buckshot, #1 please, patterned in the individual gun.

 

[JohnBT]

Here are two interesting charts I found at www.tacticalshotgun.ca/content_nonsub/shotguns/shotgun_ammunition.html

Okay, make it three. Slugs too.

 

[quatin]

Everyone is talking about 1 hit of birdshot, but what about a semi loaded with 6 birdshot shells? This is quite similar to the .22lr as a SD thread stating 1 .22lr won't have much stopping energy, but what about 10? Personally I think I can squeeze off 10 .22lrs in an accurate manner in the time it takes me to shoot 2-3 9mms the same way. (That's because I suck at pistols, but not everyone is an expert )

 

[Fred Fuller]

Charles S,

Mas weighed in on the subject on http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=232418 earlier this morning. I'm not gonna bug him to answer the same question twice in one day.

Some people get it, some folks don't WANT to get it. No need to worry about trying to accelerate an idea to a velocity sufficient to penetrate a made-up mind, it ain't gonna happen. People who want to learn, will learn. Some folks want to state an opinion over and over with no background in training, experience or fact. The Internet makes that easy, unfortunately. And the words they type are worth just as much as the words I type when weighed on a scale, all they are, are words. That's all any of us have to offer on the 'net, is our words. It takes a certain level of sophistication to weigh those words, some folks have it and some folks don't. No need to worry about that, all we can do is offer the words, and the ideas they represent. Some folks WILL get it. They make it worthwhile. Not all the seeds that get planted will sprout after all.

Oh, and Cirillo would rather have an M-1 carbine with hollow points than a shotgun or handgun, I have heard him address his preferences in person. Mr. Smith I have never had an opportunity to speak to, I don't know what he would say (but on the subject of birdshot for defense, I think I can guess).

Regards,

lpl/nc

 

[Dr.Rob]

If you MUST use birdshot, make sure it's a turkey load.

 

[The-Fly]

my answer to the birdshot vs buckshot debate.


http://www.btfh.net/shoot/bullet-test-4.html

 

[EdLaver]

The-Fly, I think your link pretty much closes this thread. Whoever the guy was that told the threadstarter his info on Birdshot was DEAD wrong. 00 buck for home defense...bottom line.

 

[EdLaver]

The-Fly, I think your link pretty much closes this thread. Whoever the guy was that told the threadstarter his info on Birdshot was DEAD wrong. 00 buck for home defense...bottom line.