Home Defense--use #7 Bird.

[Audie]

Lee has said it all. Anyone who really believes that when the SHTF, you will have time to think is fooling yourself. If you aim a gun at someone, you should shoot them. If you shoot them, you should kill them.

Any other thinking is pure hollywood. Shooting is your last resort, but if you have to, do it.

00 buck.

 

[Guntalk]

>>If you aim a gun at someone, you should shoot them. If you shoot them, you should kill them. <<

Oh good grief!

This is mindless, clueless, irresponsible, dangerous, costly, and just flat wrong.

So, you point a gun at a bad guy, and he gives up and surrenders, or runs away, you still shoot him with the intent to kill?

Two words:

Visiting Days

 

[Car Knocker]

I think a load of #7 or #8 would be about perfect in a house. It'll stop anyone, and it won't shoot through walls or ceilings and kill your kid in his bed.

Birdshot WILL go through a sheetrock/drywall wall.

 

[Coronach]

have a friend who was shot in the ass with a "dove load" of #8 shot. His girlfriend shot him after an argument. She tried to shoot him in the crotch, but he spun around when he saw her with his gun. The impact point was the rear right leg, right where the top of the thigh and lower buttock meet. As a result of the shot, he lost about a pound of flesh. He now has a hole there about the size of half of a fist. He has many pellets that could not be removed. The pellets went into his pelvis and hip and even into the bone. He spent 2 weeks in the hospital and a month in a nursing home with a suction device hooked up to the wound. He still walks with a limp. It was really a devestating wound. And to this day, when I talk to people about it, their reaction is "oh, bird shot." I have to explain to them that's about 3/4 ounce of lead that, for all practical purposes, hits like a solid mass of lead than immediately breaks up and goes every-which-way.

I think a load of #7 or #8 would be about perfect in a house. It'll stop anyone, and it won't shoot through walls or ceilings and kill your kid in his bed.

That's a terrible wound. Now...how close was she when she did it, and, if your friend had been armed and been of a mind to commit murder, would it have prevented him from doing so? The answer to #1 is unclear, but so is the answer to #2. My point is that, while I won't be jumping in front of Dick Cheney during a quail hunt, it is by no means any indication that the load is a reliable stopper.

Mike

 

[Coronach]

If you aim a gun at someone, you should shoot them. If you shoot them, you should kill them.

I hope, for the sake of all involved, you most of all, that you never have to shoot anyone. That is the most concisely incorrect piece of information posted yet.

We shoot to stop, not to kill. If you don't understand the difference, please do everyone supporting RKBA the favor of learning it before it is too late.

Mike

 

[repo]

I just skimmed through this thread but I didn't see anyone mention the "Box of Thruth" yet

Pretty sure they had a comprehensive "testing" of HD loads.

 

[FortyFive70]

That's a terrible wound. Now...how close was she when she did it, and, if your friend had been armed and been of a mind to commit murder, would it have prevented him from doing so? The answer to #1 is unclear, but so is the answer to #2. My point is that, while I won't be jumping in front of Dick Cheney during a quail hunt, it is by no means any indication that the load is a reliable stopper.

Mike

I think it was about 10-15 feet. She was standing at the end of a walkway, he was in the drive-way calling 911 when she shot him.

They had both been in the house, she came out of the bedroom with the gun. They grappelled and he didn't want her to get hurt so he shoved her back and went outside. She followed. He went to his car, got his phone and called 911. She stood at the end of the walkway and pointed at his crotch, he spun and she fired. 911 recorded his screaming. She picked up the phone and told 911 she had shot someone.

He had effectively been incapacitated. He was in no position to shoot anyone. The shot dropped him. A followup shot would have been all too easy. Had he been hit int he chest or head, I think he would be dead.

 

[Coronach]

Ok. 10-15 ft is pretty close range. That is the length of a room in my house. Assuming that the performance of this load is indicative of how well birdshot performs on an average, and assuming that you are correct about what would have happened if he was hit COM (neither of these are assumptions upon which I would wager any sum of money, btw), we still do not know:

1. How well will it perform at greater ranges? Even in a HD scenario that is a useful thing to know. I have a decent sized hallway, an open stairwell, and a pretty huge kitchen/morning-room/living room area within which I might have to take a shot. I would wager that this is not an unusual situation for most posters here on THR.

2. How well does it do at penetrating winter clothing? Unless you only plan on hosting a home invasion in the summertime, you need to think about what your HD load will do against an armed intruder wearing a heavy winter coat.

I know what a 12g loaded with slugs or buckshot will do in those situations. What will #7 birdshot do?

Mike

 

[Audie]

I think I was a bit misunderstood. You don't ever point a gun at someone, period...unless you have no choice.

You don't try to wound someone, unless you are an expert and have been trained to do so.

Good grief is right....I get the strong feeling most of you guys don't know what you are talking about period. You talk like you would be calm enough to handle the situation like people do on TV.

I stand by my statement. Avoid having to use your gun at all cost. If you do, you had better be able to prove it was life threatening and you had no way to egress. And if that is the true situation, aim, shoot, and aim dead center...else you will do more damage to your neighbors and will probably end up in jail....good grief...you said it.

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

I get the strong feeling most of you guys don't know what you are talking about period.

Funny, I got the same feeling when I read your post. So I checked your post history and found that you've been giving out advice on shotguns and shell suggestions for the last couple of weeks. What struck me as odd was this post, where you talk about your first time firing a shotgun a mere three weeks ago.

Do you have any other credentials other than 3 weeks of shotgun shooting experience to base these statements on? I know the people you are contradicting have some pretty good experience to back them up.

 

[Audie]

NO I DO NOT HAVE EXPERIENCE ON THIS TOPIC...HOPE I NEVR DO. and I am new to shotguns, mostly a rifle guy.

I rarely enter this type of discussion, because it is full of opinions. Lee makes good sense to me. I do feel since I did get into this and have been bashed a bit, to explain the conversations I have had with people I trust on this topic. In particular a childhood friend who is a LEO. Not that he knows everything or is even right, but he knows more than I do.

Read any gun forum and you will find this topic. there are actually people who choose a handgun as a HD weapon! From what I have been told, if you were ever in the situation...even someone well trained, but being in the situation for the first time...you will be shaking like a leaf. If anyone thinks they can hit a target with a pistol like they were shooting paper at the range, they are simply deluded. He has told me, a shotgun is the best chioce.
Because you will most likely hit the target.

The next thing is, in a stressful situation, thinking properly is the first thing that goes. You may pump the gun and warn the intruder to get out, but you might also discharge the weapon before you know what has happened.

Call, the police, get behind some furnature, wait for the cavalry. If you pump the shotgun, keep the safety on. then only if someone breaks down a door, and starts at you with a knife in hand, do you even consider pointing the weapon and firing. And then you should have tried to get away. Never look for the intruder. Never.

Well, that was his advice. From the amount of folks who advocate buck at close range (about 1/2 here)...you are going to kill. even if you shoot someone in the leg. hit the artery and they will die. Like you would be calm enough to think about that in the situation anyway???

Call the cops, get out, or find a safe spot and wait. This really was my intention behind that post. Let's hope it never happens to anyone.

I think a lot of folks are deluded into thinking it is like the movies...everyone is John Wayne. I doubt it would go down anywhere near the way most think it will.

but if it happens, birdshot seems to weak to stake your life on.

 

[Coronach]

I think I was a bit misunderstood.

Fair enough.

You don't ever point a gun at someone, period...unless you have no choice.

Agreed.

You don't try to wound someone, unless you are an expert and have been trained to do so.

I would submit that you don't try to wound someone even if you are an expert and have been trained to do so.

Good grief is right....I get the strong feeling most of you guys don't know what you are talking about period. You talk like you would be calm enough to handle the situation like people do on TV.

There are times when I would agree with you, but this is not one of them. The people posting in disagreement in this instance seemed to be pretty reasonable, to me.

I stand by my statement. Avoid having to use your gun at all cost. If you do, you had better be able to prove it was life threatening and you had no way to egress.

Generally true, and always wise.

And if that is the true situation, aim, shoot, and aim dead center...else you will do more damage to your neighbors and will probably end up in jail....good grief...you said it.

Agreed. So, where is this "always shoot to kill" nonsense you are claiming?

See, what confuses things is that shooting to kill and shooting to stop seem to be the same thing, because the aiming points are similar (pretty much identical, actually). It is a sad coincidence that wounds that reliably stop an assailant are also the ones most likely to kill him. What differs is your motivation in shooting him. This will come out if you 10-ring an assailant and he drops his gun. Do you shoot him again?

If yes, you are trying to kill him. I sincerely hope you like small, enclosed spaces and regimented daily routines, because (if there are reliable witnesses who tell the truth), that is what you will probably get.

If no, you obviously are not trying to kill him- you have the perfect chance to off him, but you let him fall to the ground and you called 911. Why? Because you were not trying to kill him, you were trying to stop him from killing you. When that threat vanished, you did not shoot him again.

The difference is not semantic. The difference could keep you out of prison.

Mike

 

[cookekdjr]

I've seen a few shotgun wounds in my job. A couple that come to mind:

1. A drug dealer was trash-talking a Mexican immigrant in the immigrant's front yard. Immigrant walks inside, grabs a single-shot 12 gauge, and shoots the drug dealer from his front porch. The dealer tries to stumble away, but doesn't make it out of the yard. He falls over dead. I don't know the exact size of the shot, but it was bird shot of some kind. The dealer bled out. No one wound was fatal....he was just peppered and bled out from a bunch of tiny holes.Some of them went deeper than others, and some weren't that serious. But he didn't walk 10 steps before he fell over and never got up.

2. A man shot his brother in the torso with 00 buckshot from a 12 gauge pump. Funny thing, this shooter was also on his porch and the victim was in the front yard. None of the buckshot penetrated deeply enough to hurt the victim seriously. Some of the pellets actually fell out when the victim took off his shirt. There was some speculation that the pellets may have glanced off the ground before they hit the victim, but we could not proove that.

3. A bank robber shot a security guard with one blast from a 12 gauge, I forget what kind of shot it was. I think it was bird shot but I cannot remember for sure. The blast literally blew the guard's head off. There was no head when we got to the scene, only pieces.

What I have taken away from this and a couple other shooting's is that, although nothing is foolproof, a shotgun is quite deadly, even with birdshot. Just my observations, YMMV.
Now, gotta get back to work. Lunch is over.
-David

 

[Audie]

Coronach. I see your point. But 00 buck aimed dead center is shooting to kill. If you want to stop the attacker and not kill him, then 00 buck may not be the wise choice. Yet 1/2 here advocate it. I was also told not to mix loads in the gun.

It's one confusing topic, because it is so hypothetical, and yet so potentially lethal. My choice of words was not good. but shooting to stop at 15 feet with buck, is shooting to kill isn't it? I just meant, don't try to be Humprey Bogart and think you can shoot the knife out of the guys hands...you might hurt others as colateral damage and might just get yourself killed, and go to jail, loose your house on legal bills etc..., I was advised to always aim dead center and only if you intend to shoot. Would have been better choice of words...it was late, I was tired.

If you have to shoot, you have to shoot. That would be my defense. roaming around the house looking for a bump in the night with a loaded gun is not very wise. Perhaps that should have been my comment. No offense to anyone. Just my opinion on this topic.

 

[Lonestar]

Birdshot WILL go through a sheetrock/drywall wall.

From www.theboxotruth.com

4. Birdshot does not excessively penetrate drywall walls. But it does not penetrate deeply enough to reach a bad guy's vital organs. Birdshot makes a nasty but shallow wound. It is not a good Stopper.

and

Birdshot as a Defense Load
I have had a lot of questions, summed up as follows: How effective is birdshot (#4, #6, #8, etc.) as a defense load?

We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round. Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds.

A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want... to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing. To do this, you must have a load that will reach the vitals of the bad guy. Birdshot will not do this.

In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs.

Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot. Use 00 Buck. It will do the job.

Bird shot will penetrate a SHEET of drywall, but it will not penetrate fully thru a Sheetrocked wall.

 

[JohnBT]

Another quote:
___________
Lessons learned:
1. Notice that the #4 and #1 Buck penetrated 6 boards. In previous tests, 9mm, .45 ACP, and M-193 out of an AR all penetrated all 12 boards.

So, it seems that these loads do not "over-penetrate" as much as some have led us to believe.

The 00 Buck penetrated 8 boards, but was stopped by the 9th. Still not as much penetration as the pistol or rifle loads.

The slug penetrated all 12 boards.

2. Once again, please notice the size of the entrance spreads....2 1/2" to 3 1/2". Therefore, anyone that says, "With a shotgun, you don't even have to aim. Just point it in the general area of the bad guy, and you can't miss", does not know what they are talking about.

You can very easily miss with a shotgun. You must aim to hit your target.

3. The slugs were "bad" penetrators. By that, I mean that they will penetrate several interior walls. If you have loved ones in your home, consider this as you select your home defense weapon.

4. I "racked" the shotgun several times during the tests, and no bystanders lost control of their bowels.
Conclusion: Racking a shotgun will not make the bad guy faint.

Frankly, I was surprised that the shotgun did not penetrate more than it did. I had been led to believe that they penetrated more than a .223 rifle or a 9mm or .45 ACP. Such was not the case.

Amazing what you can learn by doing a little testing.
_______________

Got to love #2 and #4 especially...

 

[FortyFive70]

I've never shot anyone and hope I never have to. I can't think of much that would be more life-altering.

I don't keep a shotgun handy for home defense - though I know its probably the best weapon. But I do keep a .357 handy. And even then I worry about over penetration. So I keep the gun handy with a speed-loader of Glaser Safety Slugs nearby. I've got kids and a wife I worry about and I'd hate for a round to go through a wall and hit one of them. I think I'm well armed.

If I did keep a shotgun for home defense, I'd probably keep it loaded with 2 3/4 inch #5 turkey loads. I think that load would be devestating, with enough energy to make it through thick clothing, but less of a concern with respect to over-penetration compared to buck-shot. On top of that, I'd probably go with a 20 ga instead of a 12.

 

[Car Knocker]

Lonestar,

Bird shot will penetrate a SHEET of drywall, but it will not penetrate fully thru a Sheetrocked wall.

You need to read the quote you posted:

Quote:
We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall.

YOUR quote states that birdshot penetrated 2 pieces of drywall and was stopped by the second wall.

 

[Audie]

It is difficult to point a pistol and hit a target with it, especially in the dark and under stress...you really need to aim and be calm...a long gun on the other hand is easy to point and easy to hit a target with. It's a simple question of physics and sighting.

Pointing a shotgun from the shoulder is aiming a shotgun. It is very natural, like looking down a long stick. A pistol requires much more training to handle properly, and to hit something with it. This is why folks put laser pointers on pistols after all. Parallax alone makes pistols inaccurate if you can't line up the sights. It's a lot to think about in a split second. I'd rather be holding a long gun.

I also think anyone entering a dark room after hearing a pump action shotgun being chambered is a complete psycho or on drugs...at the shooting range, no one flinches (why would they...no one is going to shoot you)....in a dark room at close range...I would go to the next house. But of course I am a rational law abiding person...maybe they think different.

I read a story about the gunfight at the OK corral. I think 33 shots were fired, doc holiday had a shotgun and fired once. If I could pic one weapon to have in my hands if I had to shoot, it would be a 12 guage shotgun.

but then, I am very good with a rifle, and couldn't hit a barn from the inside with my 1911s.

having my shotgun at hand makes me feel more safe, but maybe after reading this thread, it makes me feel uneasy.

Like our soldiers in Iraq with such tight rules of engagement, they probably fear a situation where they have to think...shoot, don't shoot...more than a firefight. that split second could change your life...I too hope to never face it. but if I do, it would be with a shotgun for sure.

 

[USMC Tanker]

00 Buck vs. Bird Shot...I don't understand why this argument/question is brought up so often.

Can generations upon generations of military/law enforcement be wrong?

I'll stick with my 00 buck and slug combinations.

 

[Charles S]

Oh well, here goes again.

Here is what Mr. Ayoob recommends.

"At LFI, we suggest buckshot. It has proven itself over the years as the optimum close/intermediate range antipersonnel shotgun round.

Birdshot can still go through sheetrock. One does not minimize danger to family members in other rooms by using birdshot; one does so by working out a coordinated defense plan that will not have one firing in the direction of other household members. If the armed, identified intruder ducks behind a wall or piece of furniture or other barrier, you WANT to be able to reach through and hit him."

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=2830965&postcount=8

BTW, the important thing to get from that thread is that prior planning with an understanding of Fields of fire is much more important than loading.

Mr Farnam recomends the following

"We recommend 00 buckshot in the standard, nine-pellet loading. Federal, Remington, Winchester and other reputable manufacturers produce this load in great abundance, as it is the standard used by most law enforcement departments. Other sizes of buckshot are acceptable, but 00 renders the best performance. We do not recommend any of the magnum shotshell loading, 2 3/4" or 3". The magnum loadings are very uncomfortable to shoot and offer little benefit in return. We do not recommend birdshot and other reduced-recoil loadings. You need to practice shooting the real thing!"

Mr. Izumi recommends #1 buck.

When working pre-hospital in Shreveport I responded to a call in which an attacker was stopped with one shot to COM with a Davis 22. He was very dead by the time we arrived on scene.

Therefore, based upon some of the logic in this thread, the Davis 22 is an ideal self defense handgun.

No, it worked once, that does not mean a 22 long rifle is a reliable stopper.

I have two questions for those of you who recommend #7 1/2 Birdshot.

Are you basing this recommendation on experience and or training? Do you have any experience or training?

Do you have any experience hunting with a shotgun?

For those of you who don't understand the difference in shooting to kill and shooting to stop. I highly recommend you take a course in self defense. It has almost nothing to do with the load you select. It is all about state of mind and intent.

 

[FortyFive70]

I'm certainly not interested in getting into a pissing match with anyone. But I will say the "cooridnated home defense plan" gets all shot to hell once an intruder ducks behind a wall. "Excuse me sir, that's not part of the plan, please stand over there where I can shoot you." I hope he obliges. If doesn't, I'm retreating. If he goes into a room where my son is, I'm not shooting through any wall.

The simple fact is is that smaller individual pellets have less energy, thus less penetrating power. Buckshot can kill someone in the next room. So can bird shot, but its less likely.

If I were to engage a bad-guy on the street, I'd like a rifle, but I'd take a shotgun if I had to, loaded with 00 or 000 buck. In my home, I would want a load of smaller shot. The theory that birdshot isn't serious medicine is nonsense. I've seen its effects on the human body, up close.

When you are defending your life, the goal is to live. Killing the criminal is 100% incidental to that fact. If you stay alive by stopping or killing, it doesn't much matter. And if you don't kill anyone else in the exchange, all the better.

By the way, the good Mr. Ayood is talking about a miss. Miss with bird or buck shot and it will likely go through a wall. Hit with birdshot and it will stay in the body. Buckshot can retain enough energy to go all the way thru the body then who knows where. The best load will penetrate the vitals and expend all its energy in the body. A heavy load of hi-vel birdshot will do that. A load of uck can pass through the body. After all, the average human is pretty lightly built.

 

[Coronach]

Coronach. I see your point. But 00 buck aimed dead center is shooting to kill.

No, I don't think you see my point. A choice of shoot to kill or shoot to stop is a question of intention, not target. If I was shooting to kill a man, where would I shoot him? In the chest. If I was shooting to stop a man, where would I shoot him? In the chest. You are inferring that all shots to the chest are "shots to kill". This is not the case.

If you want to stop the attacker and not kill him, then 00 buck may not be the wise choice.

This might be the root of the misunderstanding. I want to stop the attacker; I don't care whether he lives or dies.

Yet 1/2 here advocate it.

1/2 of all people are probably wrong on any given issue.

I was also told not to mix loads in the gun.

Probably wise. You need to know which round is ready to go, and unless you're very calm and have counted your rounds, you'll have no idea if you have birdshot, slug or buckshot up next (depending on what creative loadout you're using).

It's one confusing topic, because it is so hypothetical, and yet so potentially lethal. My choice of words was not good. but shooting to stop at 15 feet with buck, is shooting to kill isn't it? I just meant, don't try to be Humprey Bogart and think you can shoot the knife out of the guys hands...you might hurt others as colateral damage and might just get yourself killed, and go to jail, loose your house on legal bills etc..., I was advised to always aim dead center and only if you intend to shoot. Would have been better choice of words...it was late, I was tired.

I think we agree in general; you shoot for COM.

Mike

 

[runninmike]

A birdshot experience of mine:

I made a solid hit at about 15' on a coyote's shoulder with a 20 ga #6 shot and it spun him, he got up quickly and started running in circles biting at his shoulder and just as I was trying to reload my single bbl, he left the area abruptly and ran for a mile or so at a full run. Feeling sickly, I followed to the river and never did find him. I was very young and was sure my shotgun would blast him dead at that close range. I saw a patch of red wound the size of a softball where I hit him. I carry some slugs or buck when bird hunting
now.
Use #4 buck or larger for defense. If birdshot was effective, many le would use it. They do not.

 

[Audie]

I think your post C shows I certainly do understand what you have said. I read it carefully and am fully aware of your point. What I haven't really decided is what should be in the magazine. My advice has been 00. but others make good points too.

but 45 has it right...no plan is going to work the way you may think it will. the best plan is to figure out how to deal with the situation without shooting before hand...(dog, lights, alarms, egress) then fall back on shooting if all else fails. problem really is that someone who isn't there will judge your actions in the calm light of hind sight....that is what makes me want to unload my shotgun.

but I probably won't..an unloaded gun is a club.