Home Defense--use #7 Bird.

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If someone breaks into my house, I am unloading the saiga into their COM.

10 rounds x 12 pellets X 00 buck = quickest incapacitation in the history of the universe. It's the closest I can come to running them over with a bus.
 
lol @ beerslurppy


ok, now not to toot my own horn or anything, but i and a few others who deal with this stuff everyday (trauma people) have already posted about how birdshot is highly INEFFECTIVE in regards to rapidly incapacitating a determined attacker............. but every few posts someone jumps in and says that it is!!???


:scrutiny: um yea, i'll have 2 of whatever you are drinking
 
I suspect it's like most other areas in self defense . . . it all depends.

Someone shot at 20 yards or more will be hurt, but the severity decreases with range.

However, I suggest that a load of buckshot at 3 to 7 yards would behave pretty much like a load of buckshot or even a slug.

You may want to shoot a shotgun with bird shot at a target that is 3 yards away to see, but I think you'll find it to be a particularly effective load.

Having said that, this would not be my choice.

I would prefer a short AR-15, every time. More ammo, better stopping power, less penetration than most handgun rounds in the walls of a house, it will defeat most common body armor (bad guys are wearing that stuff these days), and its effectiveness does not fall off nearly as quickly with increased distance.

It's all a personal matter, but I can guarantee that a shotgun inside of 7 yards, with a center-of-mass hit, is a stopper.
 
Lee Lapin said:
Choose wisely- both your shotgun ammo and your experts
Yeah. What Lee said.

Me?

00 spit from an 870P,
backed up by a 9.

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I really think the bottum line is that, reguardless of what your are loading/shooting, the most important think is to know the capabilities of your choosen weapon and rounds, and your abilities with those two. I mean, whatever you decide to load up, know where it is gonna hit at, and how far away you can effectively expect to shoot in reguards to your desired result. You could have whatever you think is the biggest baddest weapon, with whatever you think are the biggest baddest rounds, but if you are not familiar with the weapon, or the rounds or how the two interact together, you are doing yourself a grave injustice. Not giving yourself a PACE is also an injustice. Have you practiced how you would clear your house? What would be the best method? Ya, you may live in the house, and be familiar with the layout of it, but that does not give you as much advantage as if you have thought about it, gone through it, and rehersed it. PACE= Primary Alternate Contingency Emergency.
For instance, my PACE for WOC
P= 870 shotgun 12ga
A= H&K P2000 .40
C= 10/22 .22
E= Pepper spray and a collapsable baton

Practicing with your WOC is also extremely important. I used to have a golf club as my emergency, but by practice, I learned that if was really not effective as I could not really get much swing indoors.

My PACE for my MOC is quite extensive and would not be understood unless you knew the lay of my place. But my Emergency plan does include going out a window and coming back in a door. Have a friend come over and you two war game it all day long, him being a burglar, how he would move through the house, what he would do, where he would go, how you would counter it etc etc etc. You would be surprised what you will learn.

I mentioned what I load earlier, a .00 slug alternating combo. I know for a fact that it will go through walls, and believe me, if I deem it nessessary, I will shoot through the walls. I would rather patch drywall, then be put in a bag. As far as killing vs wounding/incapacitating, I would rather be judged by 12 then carried by 6. Know your state laws as well. The law for the state I am currently stationed in states that I have to tell a burgler/perp to stop and that I have a weapon, and "ask" them to leave....... 3 times!!!! Dead men tell no tails. As far I am concerned, I did ask 3 times. He is in a bag, he wont argue with me.

In reguards to your choice or #7 vs anything else, what would you NOT want to be shot at with? I personally would much rather you shooting at me with bird shot then .00 or slugs. .00 and slugs are the rounds I would least want to be up against, thats why I load them.

The afforementioned is all my personal opinion. What works for me may not work for you. Take it or leave it.
 
Lonestar,

Bird shot will penetrate a SHEET of drywall, but it will not penetrate fully thru a Sheetrocked wall.

You need to read the quote you posted:

We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall.

YOUR quote states that birdshot penetrated 2 pieces of drywall and was stopped by the second wall.

True it will EXIT a sheetrock wall (2 pieces of sheetrock), but if what exits can't penetrate the paper of the next sheet, it probably will be harmless and not penetrate the skin of someone on the other side of the wall. Now they were refering to #8 birdshot not #4 which will penetrate multiple layers of sheetrock. That is the problem with overpenetration. Sheetrock it a flimsy barrier. Your either going to penetrate multiple walls (www.boxotruth.com, test glaser pistol rounds too, again it went thru MULTIPLE layers of sheetrock) or if it can be stopped in one "Wall" it probably will be a poor choice to stop an intruder.

I don't use shotguns for HD, but if I would, I would use a turkey load, that would have LOWER penetration than buckshot, and HIGHER stoping power than #8 birdshot. and I would just use it as the first round in the chamber, and follow it up with buckshot. After the first shot, I hope to have the sense to make sure of my backstop if I need to take a second.
 
I have been shot at longer ranges (about 30 yards) with 7 1/2 and it nearly killed me.

I have seen SEVERAL shotgun wounds at inside the house ranges, real peoples houses, 1 to 5 yards. All were fatal except the one with a slug which blew a hole in the BG's thigh. I do property management for a company that owned what are referred to in my community as the "Crack Stacks", Low income Hi rise apartments. I also lived for a long time on a semi rural farm that had lots of problems with feral dogs and other pests.

IF you are shot with a shotgun, 12 or 20 at 1-5 yards COM, you will die. I have not seen one yet that lived. Regardless of whether it was 8 shot or 000 buck. Two weeks ago I saw a very large (obese) young man who had been shot at door opening range, with a 12 gauge loaded with low brass game loads. (I was close enough to see the empties, but not to read the case, not my job anyway) The man was obese enough to require a flat bed cart to maneuver him down the hallway as the EMT gurney was not sturdy enough, yet the first shot had killed him DRT. According to the EMT that I talked to, the damage to his chest reminded him of a guy falling on a grenade. The second shot had been a message shot, with the shotgun in contact with his face when they pulled the trigger.

I have also shot several large feral dogs inside the barn, usually use #6 in that gun and not one has lived more then a couple of second.

People often make the mistake of not realizing the density of the shot mass at the ranges that you are going to be facing in the house. Unless your house shows up on "cribs" it will be very rare for most of us to get a straight shot of more than 5 yards. Penetration will be there at that range.

If you have the ability to see real life, a shot gun blast at close range, on a living thing, you will understand. Gangbanger injuries are usually driveby's with punks shooting poorly at running targets from a lot greater distances than expected. In my experience the only deadly Drive by has been when a BG was standing back to the curb and had no idea the car was there till the shots rang out. In our buildings, (over 1100 apts) when shotguns have been used, the ME truck shows up.
 
I reckon I'll weigh in now. We've read some anecdotal evidence here, we've read some some tests, and we've read the opinions of experienced professionals.

What have we learned?
-We all know that nothing is absolute, there are too many variables.
-We've seen that birdshot can stop a person at close range.
-We've seen that buckshot/slugs can fail to stop a person.
-We know from several years of ammo testing and wound analysis (handgun, shotgun, and rifle) that stopping a person requires a deep wound channel. The wider and deeper the better. Multiple wound channels are helpful, but not as important as a deep and wide wound.

What are our options in a shotgun loading?
-Slugs, followed by buckshot most cinsistently produce deep penetration with a wide wound channel.
-Birdshot can produce a wide and somewhat deep woundchannel, but it's effectiveness in doing so is greatly decreased as range increases.

How do we apply this?
-Plan with family/room mates to get everyone grouped together behind the primary gunhandler(s) to reduce the chances of wounding them.
-In a lower density residential area, i.e. houses with yards, extra penetration is rarely a disadvantage with proper planning.
-In a higher density residential area, i.e. apartments, townhouses, condos, one cannot account for neighbors and excessive penetration can be a problem. These residences generally have shoter max distances for shots to be taken at.

Read the posts in this thread carefully. Look at your personal situation. Decide what load will be most reliable at stopping a threat while accounting for your surroundings. What load each person goes with is their own choice. We're all able to use our brains to read and analyze the information to come to our own conclusions. Let's hope none of us ever have to put it to the test against a real threat.
 
Somebody has a signature that says something like "the plural of anecdote is not data". Yeah. There's a lot of patently ridiculous "info" and faulty logic in this thread, and hopefully it doesn't get one of the purveyors killed, or even worse someone unfortunate enough to've actually believed it.
 
Mossberg 500, 12ga, 5 rounds of #1 buck.

I live in a townhouse. The CETME, M48, and SKS are Right Out. I patterned 00, 0, and #1 on some Osama posters. Out of an 18.5" barrel, Numero Uno does what I want it to.
 
Are we still beating this dead horse?!?!

After carefully reading this thread, I've decided that regardless of my personal circumstances, overpenetration should be THE most important issue affecting my ammunition choice. I've also learned that just about anything can POSSIBLY stop a BG.

With these revelations, I've decided trust the defense of my home to a new strategy. From now on, I'll keep a bowl of Cool Whip, along with a wooden spoon as a launcher, next to my bed.

Cool Whip to the eyes can possibly cause infection, and will most assuredly render the BG unable to see, thus stopping him. Plus there's no chance of overpenetration.

I just hope I don't have a midnight snack before a home invasion.:neener:

Please, someone, for the love of all that which is Holy, close this thread.
 
It's time to let this thread die. Has anyone noticed that the OP hasn't posted again on THR since the day he registered? Me suspects that the mods recognized him as the troll he was and yanked his account. But this silly thread lives on.
 
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