Home defense with childern in the house
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thefamcnaj
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Ok I checked out box o truth and it was very enlightning. I did some studying today about possible angles I'd be taking should I have to defend the front of the house.
So what I've come up with is to more less fortify the kids closets in their bedrooms. I'm going to get my ucle down here, who is the smartest person I know when it comes to anything construction or electrical related.
First I'm going to install lights and good locking doors on both closets. Then its on to the 4 interior walls of their closets. I'm not exactly sure what we are going to there yet, I'll have to get his opinions when he gets here. Once this project is completed they'll be told to "get low, get small" in their closets, should they hear the alarm go off. Both closets are right beside their beds.
When this is done I'll feel more comfortable using the buck shot or the .45 acp.
I know it may sound over the top but its the best I can come up with for keeping my son and daughter safe and have a decent enough caliber to stop a bg. I hope I'm on the right track here.
So what I've come up with is to more less fortify the kids closets in their bedrooms. I'm going to get my ucle down here, who is the smartest person I know when it comes to anything construction or electrical related.
First I'm going to install lights and good locking doors on both closets. Then its on to the 4 interior walls of their closets. I'm not exactly sure what we are going to there yet, I'll have to get his opinions when he gets here. Once this project is completed they'll be told to "get low, get small" in their closets, should they hear the alarm go off. Both closets are right beside their beds.
When this is done I'll feel more comfortable using the buck shot or the .45 acp.
I know it may sound over the top but its the best I can come up with for keeping my son and daughter safe and have a decent enough caliber to stop a bg. I hope I'm on the right track here.
bigfatdave
Member
There's a market, and every offering fails to do anything it is advertised as being good for.
Frangible rounds DO go through household walls, and DON'T provide sufficient wounds (and many won't function reliably in semiautos, or are too expensive for real reliability testing)
"Less-lethal" rounds or weapons are crappy at stopping a dedicated attack and are all too often just a little bit lethal.
that's a lot of time you're being given to set things up from the point you're alerted ... are you sure that you're being realistic?
The head is a target that moves around and has a surprisingly small zone where stopping is reliable. Have a buddy move about rapidly and advance on you with a fake knife (use a rubber spatula from the kitchen) while you operate a fake shotgun by dialing in a flashlight to the appropriate pattern size and clicking it on when you think it is lined up, remember, only the moment the light clicks on is valid.
Deltaboy1984
Member
Change sleeping quarters , harden your house and get security lighting and the kids a good dog.
thefamcnaj
Member
I can't change the sleeping quarters, all I can do is try to harden and fortify what I have to work with. The front is the front and the back is the back, I can't pick the house up and reposition it. So I'll try to make what I have and where I want the kids to go if something goes wrong as solid as possible. We do have a great dog, to bad he's only 8 lbs. but he will wear an ankle out 
. I'm sure between my uncle and I we'll come up with some good ideas. I appriciate everyones input and advice.
. I'm sure between my uncle and I we'll come up with some good ideas. I appriciate everyones input and advice.Owen Sparks
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You can also teach your children that if they hear someone breaking in that they should roll off behind the bed and hide under it. The matress will give them pretty good cover against handgun bullets plus if the bad guy looks in their room he will find only an empty bed and move on. When the children get a little older they should lock their doors at night. You can stash a punch or other tool somewhere in the hall that will unlock the door in case of an emergency.
Bravo Sierra
Member
As I read over this thread, I was agreeing for the most part about wall reinforcement of some sort.
But now I have a question, for clarification of the original question.
Are your kids rooms down a hallway, where any shots would be fired from a narrow angle to the hallway wall? Or would the shots be fired squarely into the wall, the same wall that is the wall with your child asleep on the other side?
You are saying the entry is just 3' from the wall, and I can't picture a direct hit to the entry wall, with the kids just on the other side of that wall. Their rooms would be on the exterior of the house unless you had a recessed entry, or stairs coming up with a room above the stairs.
If the kids rooms are down the hall, and the walls will take only a glancing hit from whatever flies out the barrel, I would not worry as much as if the shots would be entering at 90 degrees. The shot might not be exactly parallel, but it is much better than taking a direct hit, there is obviously no where to go but through.
I didn't see anything on the boxotruth regarding glancing shots on drywall, but no shot will penetrate if the shot angle is narrow enough.
So if your kids sleep at the end of the hall, I wouldn't lose too much sleep worrying about shot penetration. Maybe add another layer of sheet rock, perhaps with some sheet metal sandwiched between. OTOH, you have got to do something if the walls to their rooms are perpendicular to the direction of your shots.
But now I have a question, for clarification of the original question.
Are your kids rooms down a hallway, where any shots would be fired from a narrow angle to the hallway wall? Or would the shots be fired squarely into the wall, the same wall that is the wall with your child asleep on the other side?
You are saying the entry is just 3' from the wall, and I can't picture a direct hit to the entry wall, with the kids just on the other side of that wall. Their rooms would be on the exterior of the house unless you had a recessed entry, or stairs coming up with a room above the stairs.
If the kids rooms are down the hall, and the walls will take only a glancing hit from whatever flies out the barrel, I would not worry as much as if the shots would be entering at 90 degrees. The shot might not be exactly parallel, but it is much better than taking a direct hit, there is obviously no where to go but through.
I didn't see anything on the boxotruth regarding glancing shots on drywall, but no shot will penetrate if the shot angle is narrow enough.
So if your kids sleep at the end of the hall, I wouldn't lose too much sleep worrying about shot penetration. Maybe add another layer of sheet rock, perhaps with some sheet metal sandwiched between. OTOH, you have got to do something if the walls to their rooms are perpendicular to the direction of your shots.
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thefamcnaj
Member
My daughters room would take no direct shots towards her room from any point of entry into the house. The house is an open floor plan. Walk in the front door, dining room on right, closet for winter clothes on the left. Sons room is behind the closet to the left. Then my daughters room is acroos from my sons and are seperated by a bathroom. Walk straight in and theres the kitchen which flows into family room. Off to the right the wife and my room. At the back of the house to the left is a small 4th room set up with the gun safes and soon to be reloading room.
I've decided to reinforce the closet that is back to back with my son's closet. So between my son and whats going on will be: a closet door then the closet filled with heavy winter coats, then 2x6's at the back of the coat closet. Behind that will be a two layers of dry wall which at that point will be the inside of his closet that will have 2x6's around all 4 walls.
As for my daughters room there is the entrance wall between her and whats going on. Two layers of sheet rock. Then her dresser is backed up against the wall. 20 feet across her room sits her closet which will be built on the inside just like her brothers. I'm feeling pretty good about this.
I've decided to reinforce the closet that is back to back with my son's closet. So between my son and whats going on will be: a closet door then the closet filled with heavy winter coats, then 2x6's at the back of the coat closet. Behind that will be a two layers of dry wall which at that point will be the inside of his closet that will have 2x6's around all 4 walls.
As for my daughters room there is the entrance wall between her and whats going on. Two layers of sheet rock. Then her dresser is backed up against the wall. 20 feet across her room sits her closet which will be built on the inside just like her brothers. I'm feeling pretty good about this.
mortablunt
Member
How about moving the kids' bed to a place where they're out of the line of fire. Also, reinforce the wall. Finally, use expanding bullets in a caliber like 38 Special or 380 ACP.
I wonder how accurate it is to spend all of your time considering shots right at a point of entry. Especially with a shotgun. Are you sure you will wake up, get the shotgun, exit your bedroom, identify your target and fire before they have gone more than a few feet beyond their entry point?
thefamcnaj
Member
Thats a great point Warp. Guess I have been looking at this as "it will all go according to plan" I'm realizing there is not perfect scenario to a home invasion.
It will be more like the doors kicked in REACT. Not so much ok I'll grab the gun squat here and fire from this angle.
I guess I"m just over complicating it really. But at the same time I'm just trying to prepare for the what if's like any ole dad would.
It will be more like the doors kicked in REACT. Not so much ok I'll grab the gun squat here and fire from this angle.
I guess I"m just over complicating it really. But at the same time I'm just trying to prepare for the what if's like any ole dad would.
snake eater 332
Member
All that preparation for entry through that one point of entry is good, but remember that Mr Murphy is often along for the ride and and well thought out plans will unravel when the **** hits proverbial fan. The fact that you're actually thinking about it puts you ahead of a lot if people. Just don't focus on that one point of entry...gameplay in your head for other contingencies and have plans for them as well.
BGs are opportunists and cowards for the most part...they want to prey on the easiest targets who will offer the least resistance. Make yourself and your home a less attractive target with extra security features, such as an alarm system, dogs, extra lighting inside and out, better locking mechanisms and security at possible points of entry, etc. Your local Police Department's Crime Prevention Unit (or similar) will often offer free security assessments of your home or business. If the BGs deem your house to be too much of a hassle, then you've won before the battle has even begun! That's the real goal...to prevent it from happening in the first place!
As far as reinforcing your children's bedrooms, others have provided very good solutions.
I would add that in a dynamic critical incident, such as an intruder, armed or not, in your home, your adrenaline will be pumping and fine motor skills will become much more difficult. Your body will fall back only on training that has been ingrained repetitiously. You need to become proficient with whatever weapon you choose for HD. Not just bullets on paper statically at a range, but you need to become combat accurate vs bullseye accurate...that is to put as many hits on target as quickly as possible to put that target down. Spend the money and time on a real class with a good instructor to get exposed to what it's like to engage in a stressful firearms encounter. Learn your own strong and weak points so you can improve. Your life and that of your family may depend upon it some day.
I also strongly recommend and urge that a weapon-mounted light be used on any and all HD weapons. A quality bright light can be used offensively by momentarily blinding your foe so that you can gain a tactical advantage, since you will likely be at an initial disadvantage in an intruder scenario. A weapon-mounted light also helps to clearly identify your potential target to ensure that it isn't a family member or friend.
Understand that the above is my opinion based upon my training and experience in nearly 10 years in the military (intelligence and special operations) and 15 years in LE.
My home is also laid out where my bedroom is on the first floor and both of my children's bedrooms are on the second floor with the only stairwell up located on the opposite side of the house from my bedroom. Hardly ideal. I know that, in an intruder scenario, I may have to fight my way through the BGs in order to get to my kids. They are my first priority.
My primary HD weapons are my duty-issued 9mm Sig P226R with an Insight M-6 light/laser mounted and my 14" 12 ga Mossberg 590A1 shotgun with Surefire 621FA Weaponlight, Hogue Youth Stock, and 3GunGear.com 7-shot nylon side saddle, as seen below:
BGs are opportunists and cowards for the most part...they want to prey on the easiest targets who will offer the least resistance. Make yourself and your home a less attractive target with extra security features, such as an alarm system, dogs, extra lighting inside and out, better locking mechanisms and security at possible points of entry, etc. Your local Police Department's Crime Prevention Unit (or similar) will often offer free security assessments of your home or business. If the BGs deem your house to be too much of a hassle, then you've won before the battle has even begun! That's the real goal...to prevent it from happening in the first place!
As far as reinforcing your children's bedrooms, others have provided very good solutions.
I would add that in a dynamic critical incident, such as an intruder, armed or not, in your home, your adrenaline will be pumping and fine motor skills will become much more difficult. Your body will fall back only on training that has been ingrained repetitiously. You need to become proficient with whatever weapon you choose for HD. Not just bullets on paper statically at a range, but you need to become combat accurate vs bullseye accurate...that is to put as many hits on target as quickly as possible to put that target down. Spend the money and time on a real class with a good instructor to get exposed to what it's like to engage in a stressful firearms encounter. Learn your own strong and weak points so you can improve. Your life and that of your family may depend upon it some day.
I also strongly recommend and urge that a weapon-mounted light be used on any and all HD weapons. A quality bright light can be used offensively by momentarily blinding your foe so that you can gain a tactical advantage, since you will likely be at an initial disadvantage in an intruder scenario. A weapon-mounted light also helps to clearly identify your potential target to ensure that it isn't a family member or friend.
Understand that the above is my opinion based upon my training and experience in nearly 10 years in the military (intelligence and special operations) and 15 years in LE.
My home is also laid out where my bedroom is on the first floor and both of my children's bedrooms are on the second floor with the only stairwell up located on the opposite side of the house from my bedroom. Hardly ideal. I know that, in an intruder scenario, I may have to fight my way through the BGs in order to get to my kids. They are my first priority.
My primary HD weapons are my duty-issued 9mm Sig P226R with an Insight M-6 light/laser mounted and my 14" 12 ga Mossberg 590A1 shotgun with Surefire 621FA Weaponlight, Hogue Youth Stock, and 3GunGear.com 7-shot nylon side saddle, as seen below:
You need a flashbang. I would never shoot at something I couldn't see. Even if there was no one in the house, they may have a hostage, who knows unless you can see whats going on, I say sit, or stand behind cover and wait, Set up a dead bolt to lock the kids door if the alarm goes off, set a time release for whatever seconds so you have time to get there. or one way glass on the miror so you can see in.There has to be a better way than blind shooting.If you can have one way glass set up on one wall that can be enabled at night, that would be a great little invention,or a camera you could see from your bedroom, those wreless camers are under fifty dollars now, you cold see them with no clue that you were there, maybe the bathroom into the bedroom, it would have to be able to turn it into a regular mirror somehow, I'm thinking out loud.Be great for kids rooms.
ATBackPAckin is on the right track. There are more practical concerns than over-penetration. Friendly fire incidents in the home are not the most common threat. My first priorities would be:
Firearm Safety: All guns locked up separate from the ammo except for home defense guns. Nightstand gun goes in a quick-open safe, loaded and chambered with any manual safety on. All family members take a formal firearms safety course. There are courses specifically for families and children.
Fortify the Exterior of the House: Reinforce external doors. External lights on motion detectors. First floor windows closed at night. Clear any shrubbery within a few feet of the house. Consider getting a dog. IP cameras are getting really inexpensive. Some local police departments will give your house a "safety" or "security review". I'm told they are of varying quality. Consider an alarm system. Some people like them, some hate them.
Emergency Planning: Sounds like you've started on this already. There are many resources for this on the web. Some strategies involve gathering the family in one room if it is practical. I'm not aware of any studies that show which strategies are most effective.
Firearm Competency: You've probably started on or completed this as well. Take a defensive course if you haven't. Practice regularly. Encourage your spouse and family members over 18 to do the same.
Hope that helps.
Firearm Safety: All guns locked up separate from the ammo except for home defense guns. Nightstand gun goes in a quick-open safe, loaded and chambered with any manual safety on. All family members take a formal firearms safety course. There are courses specifically for families and children.
Fortify the Exterior of the House: Reinforce external doors. External lights on motion detectors. First floor windows closed at night. Clear any shrubbery within a few feet of the house. Consider getting a dog. IP cameras are getting really inexpensive. Some local police departments will give your house a "safety" or "security review". I'm told they are of varying quality. Consider an alarm system. Some people like them, some hate them.
Emergency Planning: Sounds like you've started on this already. There are many resources for this on the web. Some strategies involve gathering the family in one room if it is practical. I'm not aware of any studies that show which strategies are most effective.
Firearm Competency: You've probably started on or completed this as well. Take a defensive course if you haven't. Practice regularly. Encourage your spouse and family members over 18 to do the same.
Hope that helps.
BSA1
member
Where do you live that has you so fearful of a armed intruder?
IMHO your whole plan of passive defense sucks. As I understand it in the event of a intruder your plan is to arm yourself and bunker down with your wife in your bedroom apparently waiting for the intruder to break into your bedroom.
In the meantime your children are unprotected and on their own. What if the intruders target are your children? Do you think mama bear is going to hide in the bedroom with you when her babies are in danger?
Or what if one of your children step out into the hallway between you and the intruder?
IMHO you need to quit being a lamb and become a lion. It has already been suggested to invest in new doors and locks and a big dog. You should know the floorplan of your house to move around it in the dark. Things going bump in the night will most likely be the kids. If defense is your plan I would at least pick a position down the hall so all of the bedrooms are behind me.
Firearms for home defense requires a willingness to use force. There is no shame if use of deadlly force isn't for you.
IMHO your whole plan of passive defense sucks. As I understand it in the event of a intruder your plan is to arm yourself and bunker down with your wife in your bedroom apparently waiting for the intruder to break into your bedroom.
In the meantime your children are unprotected and on their own. What if the intruders target are your children? Do you think mama bear is going to hide in the bedroom with you when her babies are in danger?
Or what if one of your children step out into the hallway between you and the intruder?
IMHO you need to quit being a lamb and become a lion. It has already been suggested to invest in new doors and locks and a big dog. You should know the floorplan of your house to move around it in the dark. Things going bump in the night will most likely be the kids. If defense is your plan I would at least pick a position down the hall so all of the bedrooms are behind me.
Firearms for home defense requires a willingness to use force. There is no shame if use of deadlly force isn't for you.
thefamcnaj
Member
I have no hall way in my house. I'm not being passive if there is an intruder. I'll be out of my room ready to protect my family. If you read my post I'm trying to make my kids a fortified area in their room should we have an intruder, not one for myself. It's not up to you to question my courage and quite frankly its offensive. I know how to navigate my home and where to take cover no matter what point of entry is breached. My whole point of the thread was ideas on calibers and how to try and offset over penetration into the kids rooms. At no point was I planning to leave my children unattended while I hunker down in my room. Deadly force is more than on the table when it comes to my family.
I think a couple of night vision cameras and a dead bolt, or the police type locks of old with the bar in the floor would keep them safe in their room while you located and dismissed them, My house is solid concrete, Broward countys latest codes, and my bedroom is at the end of a 45 ft hallway, bad spot for a bad guy. Having lived through one of theses and mentioned it before. They usually try to get you to the front door. But with outdoor cameras, no one want's to be a movie star these days.My only weak spot are a lot of windows. Not much you can do about that. Keep off the lights. If you have cams, a dog or two and alrm. You are pretty much done without going over the top. Then it just comes down to "can you do what you have to do". I know the answer, some folks say they don't know, you'll know if you are a shooter, you won't hesitate.
The-Reaver
Member
My HD load for 12 Gauge Winchester Low Recoil Birdshot This load will penetrate one side of drywall but not the other from a distance of 4 feet.
I really don't like seeing " birdshot will not stop the BG "
Think about it, your in a hallway and someone just shot you. It doesn't matter what it is you just know your rear end is filled with Pellets. A lot of them.
Do a test, shoot a milk jug full of water at 6 feet with birdshot and see what happens. This load is good enough for inside of a hallway. Period.
I really don't like seeing " birdshot will not stop the BG "
Think about it, your in a hallway and someone just shot you. It doesn't matter what it is you just know your rear end is filled with Pellets. A lot of them.
Do a test, shoot a milk jug full of water at 6 feet with birdshot and see what happens. This load is good enough for inside of a hallway. Period.
The-Reaver
Member
correct my grammer after pulling 100 bb's out of your face. & you will see that at that range. It does not matter.
Shadow 7D
Member
Reaver someone will post one of the articles about birdshot
too many examples of it failing
it MAY work, but then so may spitballs and slingshots
When you are betting your life, I'd rather take the BEST bet, not some marginal one.
I remember one of these threads where someone linked the autopsy report of a man who committed suicide with bird shot, took 3 shots, contact shots to kill himself,
Consider this, he was able and willing to pull the trigger the 3rd time. Really, not what you would expect.
As for grammar police, shooting them is a GOOD way to go to jail, threatening to shoot them is a GOOD way to rack up infractions.
too many examples of it failing
it MAY work, but then so may spitballs and slingshots
When you are betting your life, I'd rather take the BEST bet, not some marginal one.
I remember one of these threads where someone linked the autopsy report of a man who committed suicide with bird shot, took 3 shots, contact shots to kill himself,
Consider this, he was able and willing to pull the trigger the 3rd time. Really, not what you would expect.
As for grammar police, shooting them is a GOOD way to go to jail, threatening to shoot them is a GOOD way to rack up infractions.
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