Very good post, sir.
I'd always try to deescalate the situation verbally. Give them an out and you'll likely wind up with a better outcome. But, there's no way I'm dropping my weapon, either.
Hostage situation - shoot or not?
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Very good post, sir.
I'd always try to deescalate the situation verbally. Give them an out and you'll likely wind up with a better outcome. But, there's no way I'm dropping my weapon, either.
And I really hate to make this point, but if the hostage taker does shoot the hostage then they've lost all bargaining power.
Oh Lordy-sakes-alive! I would love to hear ol' Siggie Freud's take on this dream!
Here's a link to The Freud Page:
http://www.geocities.com/mhrowell/index.html
Our circle of family friends includes several psychologists and/or psychiatrists. Of course at parties, we all gather around and ask stupid questions...seriously stupid! Oh we have fun!
Anyhow, on the few times we have asked serious questions, some revolved around these type dreams. The universal reaction was: "performance anxiety"...a lingering repressed doubt of one ability to perform X under pressure. You know, like in the dream where you're in danger, but you can't run...life is slow-motion or worse, freeze-framed.
My guess, because you don't state it explicitly, is that you were not holding a Colt 1911! Were you?! See, there's the problem. How could any man be confident without a Colt?!
Here's a link to The Freud Page:
http://www.geocities.com/mhrowell/index.html
Our circle of family friends includes several psychologists and/or psychiatrists. Of course at parties, we all gather around and ask stupid questions...seriously stupid! Oh we have fun!
Anyhow, on the few times we have asked serious questions, some revolved around these type dreams. The universal reaction was: "performance anxiety"...a lingering repressed doubt of one ability to perform X under pressure. You know, like in the dream where you're in danger, but you can't run...life is slow-motion or worse, freeze-framed.
My guess, because you don't state it explicitly, is that you were not holding a Colt 1911! Were you?! See, there's the problem. How could any man be confident without a Colt?!
1) If anything happens to the hostage, the BG will be dead before she hits the ground. I am 100% confident I can make that happen.
2) If told to drop my weapon, I start shooting. Choice of target dependent on what's available. The odds of survival are low enough if I'm unarmed that its worth the risk.
3) If he tries to move the hostage out of the AO, I fire. Again, the odds have changed so the chance of death from friendly fire is outweighed by the near certainty of death from compliance.
4) If I can delay the criminal for 4 minutes, I win, since that's the average response time for cops in my hometown.
Umm, my wife knows that if I have a target in my sights and she is in the way..... to go limp and drop to the floor......
Trust me, he will never even know what happened.
Make sure you reenforce the fact that hitting the ground hurts much less if you DONT have a 45 caliber pass through hole in your shoulder.
Trust me, he will never even know what happened.
Make sure you reenforce the fact that hitting the ground hurts much less if you DONT have a 45 caliber pass through hole in your shoulder.
To further the discussion and add a bit, a single perp taking a hostage is frightened and hoping to get some advantage by threatening his hostage; the last thing he wants to do is kill the hostage and lose the advantage. Hostage is responsible for head butting, foot stomping and elbow to the testicles, you are responsible for shooting the hostage taker as soon as you have a good clear shot. Conversely, if there is a group of hostage takers and multiple hostages, it is time to stage a strategic withdrawal and wait for the negotiators.
Exactly. But the bad guy in this situation would also know he has no escape from the situation and may decide to inflict maximum damage before getting shot himself.
Ya'll have given great insight into this. Thank you. I guess my original question wasn't so much about whether you SHOULD take the shot, but more about if you do take the head shot, what is the likelihood that the bad guy also gets a shot off killing the hostage.
I've heard that the region defined by the eyes and the tip of the nose for a frontal shot gives the bullet a path through the brainstem, which should drop the terr like a sack of potatoes--no spasms, no nothing.
But then again I think I heard this in the book Inside Delta Force. Not exactly a tactical manual or SD text.
Knowing my own situation (i.e. delay for just a few minutes and the cops will likely be there), I'm more likely to just try to stalemate for those few minutes, and only "take the shot" under certain circumstances
You have a 50 - 50 chance............
First, "How did your wife get into this situation?"
Preparedness is priority. Most people think, "Oh, that won't happen to me!" Then it does.
You have to prepare for every contingency. Your wife should learn to shoot, fight, and react like you would. (Who says you won't be the hostage?)
Many already answering here have already noted that if you shoot, and hit your "eyeball", the body will simply slump to the floor without firing a shot.
Personally, I'd try to make my way closer to my target and hope he makes a mistake and exposes more of himself. Then "Bang, bang, bang". Send the SOB to hell where he belongs.
One of the gunwriters once said, "If you look like meat, you will be eaten!" As a law enforcement officer, I find that his comment is pretty accurate.
HiVelocity in SC
First, "How did your wife get into this situation?"
Preparedness is priority. Most people think, "Oh, that won't happen to me!" Then it does.
You have to prepare for every contingency. Your wife should learn to shoot, fight, and react like you would. (Who says you won't be the hostage?)
Many already answering here have already noted that if you shoot, and hit your "eyeball", the body will simply slump to the floor without firing a shot.
Personally, I'd try to make my way closer to my target and hope he makes a mistake and exposes more of himself. Then "Bang, bang, bang". Send the SOB to hell where he belongs.
One of the gunwriters once said, "If you look like meat, you will be eaten!" As a law enforcement officer, I find that his comment is pretty accurate.
HiVelocity in SC
TheLast said:
With all due respect, how do you win if your hostage is dead? Just because the police come doesn't mean it's over. It certainly doesn't mean you win (practically or legally). Just keep that in mind.
The problem I see with trying to delay the BG or talk him out of it is that while he may lose his advantage if he shoots the hostage, he has nothing to lose if he shoots you. Even if you are pointed in on him and his gun is pointed at the hostage's head, if he decides to shoot you first I'd bet he can get one off at you before you can get one off. So be prepared to shoot while shot. I think that strategically speaking it is best to shoot as soon as he exposes his head. He may delay because he has been trained by Hollywood at least as well as we have, but we shouldn't make that mistake. I've also heard that there is an "on/off" switch in there, and if you are lucky enough to hit it just right, he won't shoot the hostage. Even if you don't hit that switch, as soon as he sees you with a gun, he will know you are the threat and I bet he will instinctively want to shoot at you before he shoots the hostage.
But this is not the time to close your eyes and start pulling the trigger and hope for the best. Force yourself to focus on the front sight and a smooth trigger press to a surprise break.
Attached is a picture of a target from the final drill of the 4 day handgun class at Front Sight. You write the name of someone you care about on the hostage target and then draw and shoot the bad guy 5 times on each side, drawing each time you shoot.
But this is not the time to close your eyes and start pulling the trigger and hope for the best. Force yourself to focus on the front sight and a smooth trigger press to a surprise break.
Attached is a picture of a target from the final drill of the 4 day handgun class at Front Sight. You write the name of someone you care about on the hostage target and then draw and shoot the bad guy 5 times on each side, drawing each time you shoot.
Attachments
Well keeping the hostage alive is part of "delaying" if I didn't make that clear. If the hostage gets hurt, my mission switches from delay to "kill". If there's no hostage, there's no reason not to drop the BG where he stands.
Even though I don't win just by the cops showing up, my odds of winning go way up with 2 shooters drawing the BG's attention... and only go up from there.
He could pull the trigger at any time until he's shot, true, but more shooters=more angles to cover= more chances of someone getting a clean shot. Of course this assumes the cops use a little restraint and not fire unless they're sure of their target.... but this isn't a "lets rag on cops' marksmanship" thread ;-)
TheLast said:
That is what I assumed. The point I was making, however, is that just because the police arrive doesn't mean you "win" by any reasonable standard. I want to make that very clear. Even if all goes well and you save the hostage, I wouldn't say you're out of the woods even then.
Lets keep it real!
There is a lot of speculation and people posting things they've seen in movies in this thread. I'd like to ask everyone to please restrict their comments to things they actually know about. No one is in a position to judge what a person who takes a hostage will or won't do. Even experienced hostage negotiators after hours of interaction with a subject get it wrong some time.
We need to be talking about what skills you have to have to make such a shot. Not speculating on how it will come down if you take this course of action or that course of action.
Jeff
There is a lot of speculation and people posting things they've seen in movies in this thread. I'd like to ask everyone to please restrict their comments to things they actually know about. No one is in a position to judge what a person who takes a hostage will or won't do. Even experienced hostage negotiators after hours of interaction with a subject get it wrong some time.
We need to be talking about what skills you have to have to make such a shot. Not speculating on how it will come down if you take this course of action or that course of action.
Jeff
If you're so sure you can hit him in the eyeball, then shoot the gun out of his hand. Bigger target.
Jeff,
I don't know if you were just voicing an opinion as a THR member or laying down the rules for this thread as a moderator, so if I may respectfully disagree, I think there is real value in tossing about "what ifs" in a strategies and tactics forum.
I've just been reading a great book by Lt. Gen. Harold G. Moore titled, "We Were Soldiers Once... And Young." I thought this quote was worth sharing:
I agree that developing the skill to even be able to make that shot is of primary importance to this discussion, (without that, the rest is moot) but the original poster also asked what the likelihood is that the hostage taker would shoot the hostage. Nobody here is going to be able to give the exact probabilities, so it is going to take some speculation to have a discussion.
General Moore didn't run his string of "what ifs" through his mind without educating himself on the capabilities and tactics, techniques and procedures of the North Vietnamese Army and the Viet Cong first. He studied everything he could get about them and applied his years of training and experience as an Army officer to his thinking.
It wasn't blind speculation. If someone has formal training and experience in hostage negotiation, then that member is qualified to post about what might be going through a hostage takers mind and what we might do to counter it. If you don't have that kind of experience then you shouldn't be guessing here. This is a serious subject and deserves to be treated as such.
Members should post what they know, not what they think they know. If you want to research something and post it, that's great. Just post the source document.
We deal with serious subjects in Strategies and Tactics. Let's keep the discussion an educated one.
Jeff
Jeff,
I like what you said, and you inspired me. So I did a little research and found some interesting information from the USMC about that instant incapacitation shot that is required to guarantee that a hostage taker won't be able to shoot the hostage after being shot.
http://www.lejeune.usmc.mil/wtbn/WT.../CMC-37R Methods of Target Engagement SO.doc
I like what you said, and you inspired me. So I did a little research and found some interesting information from the USMC about that instant incapacitation shot that is required to guarantee that a hostage taker won't be able to shoot the hostage after being shot.
http://www.lejeune.usmc.mil/wtbn/WT.../CMC-37R Methods of Target Engagement SO.doc
shoot you wife/girlfriend FIRST and say "sorry dear," then empty everything into the bad guy. its a principle thing. if you are forced to relinquish you weapon you are both dead. your gun is the only thing keeping both of you alive. the bad guy in taking a hostage is thinking this will force you to do what he says. dont give him that power. lastly, shooting your significant other does not necessarily mean killing her, if your a good shot.
Sorry, but this sounds absolutely wrong for so many reasons. You apparently must not have a wife?
Assuming you did take this approach, what do you thing the bad guy is going to do when he hears the first shot? He's gunna pull the trigger - whether on purpose, instinct, or reaction. Even if the first shot doesn't kill your wife, the bad guy is almost certain to an instant later.
TS said:
Aside from the fact that this is ridiculously horrible advice, if you are a good shot in the first place, why would you shoot the hostage? On purpose, no less?
I went through and deleted some of the nonsense.
Some of the comments were utterly shameful. Keep this discussion decent and realistic or it'll get closed. There's a lot to learn from a discussion like this. There's a lot more to learn about doing this Force on Force.
Until you've been in one of these situations, you just don't know how you'll react.
Some of the comments were utterly shameful. Keep this discussion decent and realistic or it'll get closed. There's a lot to learn from a discussion like this. There's a lot more to learn about doing this Force on Force.
Until you've been in one of these situations, you just don't know how you'll react.
As a way of removing the hostage-taker's bargaining chip, I guess. Still an extremely bad idea.
Would certainly be a situation where lasergrips could come in handy, I think.
The type of shot some people are talking about is best left to a sniper. If you are in a position to have a gun trained on the suspect keep it there. Do not say a word do not change your facial expresion. If the BG is going to kill her you probably cannot stop it. If he isn't he is not going to jepordise the only bargining chip he has. If he moves you maintain the same distance no more no less. Wait for the calvery to show up. If he dicks up kill him.
Jim
Jim
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