jerkface11
Member
So whenever you build your own AR15 put everything on it but the stock that way it's a pistol first.
How is this legal?
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Theohazard
Member
Even without a stock it would still need to have an overall length shorter than 26" to be considered a pistol. Last time I measured, I think that required a barrel shorter than 12" on a regular AR-15.jerkface said:
Mike OTDP
Member
I actually pity the poor ATF working troops on this issue. They're stuck with a law that is 81 years old, and completely overtaken by technology.
AABEN
Member
The man said it was not a suppressors in any way it was a filter! He also said that any thing done to change it would be ageist the law un till you had papers from the gov. You need to go back and see the movie about it!
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newfalguy101
Member
I am not aware of any limit on barrel length or overall length of a handgun.
My understanding, is if it doesn't have a buttstock, and fires a cartridge, its a handgun.
Aaron Baker
Member
No, actually, he's right.
A gun that's over 26" in length, but is not made to be fired from the shoulder, is a "firearm" under federal law. Not a pistol, not a rifle, not an SBR. Just a "firearm."
Things that fall into this category include 1919s with shorter than 16" barrels, but no stock, and overall length over 26". Others include AR15s with shorter than 16" barrels, no stock, but longer than 26" overall. A good example of that is a manufacturer that makes one of those that has a vertical foregrip. It's allowed to because it isn't a pistol, but merely a "firearm."
Aaron
Its only people on gun forums that worry about this stuff. The ATF only gets involved when local law enforcement busts you doing something else and they want to stack charges.
Franklin Armory. Its not a pistol. Its not an SBR. Its not an AOW . Its a "weapon"
http://www.franklinarmory.com/PRODUCTS_BFS-XO-26_S.html
Theohazard
Member
There's no barrel length limit on a handgun, there's just an overall length limit. If it has no stock, it's designed to be fired with the use of a single hand, and it has an overall length of less then 26", then it's a pistol. If it has no stock and is over 26" in length, it's simply a "firearm".newfalguy101 said:
My reference to a 12" barrel was a specific response to post #51; in order for a standard AR-15 with a normal-length buffer tube to stay under the 26" limit in order to be legally a pistol, it needs a barrel 12" or shorter. That barrel length requirement isn't a legal limit, it's a technical one; if you used a short buffer tube you could have a longer barrel and still stay under the 26" limit.
It looks like Franklin Armory met that overall length of 26" or more with an 11.5" barrel and a long muzzle device. I guess when I last measured, my measurement didn't include the muzzle device (which doesn't need to be permanently attached to meet the overall length requirement).
USAF_Vet
Member
Easiest way to do it is if you already have a short barreled upper.
Build your lower all but the stock, pin together your upper. Take photo verification for evidence, removed short barreled upper from completed, stockless lower, add stock and install 16+" barreled upper.
Of course, in certain states, like mine, pistols need to be registered. so for it to be converted back to a pistol, or prove it was ever a pistol to begin with, it would need to be registered. Of course, it's a completely unenforceable law, and I'm sure non-compliance is sky high with home assembled AR pistols.
By the way, how'd we get on the subject of AR lowers when this thread started out as a solvent trap question?
Build your lower all but the stock, pin together your upper. Take photo verification for evidence, removed short barreled upper from completed, stockless lower, add stock and install 16+" barreled upper.
Of course, in certain states, like mine, pistols need to be registered. so for it to be converted back to a pistol, or prove it was ever a pistol to begin with, it would need to be registered. Of course, it's a completely unenforceable law, and I'm sure non-compliance is sky high with home assembled AR pistols.
By the way, how'd we get on the subject of AR lowers when this thread started out as a solvent trap question?
USAF_Vet
Member
Hickok45 did a video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7t_pcWPdSDs) on the Cadiz Oil can adapter, and according to him, it was the adapter that was the NFA registered item. $75 for the adapter, $200 for the stamp, and however much else for the oil filter.
So it apparently seems the jury is still out on this. I suppose either could be registered NFA, but the adapter makes more sense. Just don't have spare oil filters in your garage, might get busted for constructive possession of an unregistered silencer.
Theohazard
Member
The adapter is serialized and is considered the registered silencer, and the oil filter is considered a "silencer part". Newfalguy101 is partially correct in that you have to send the whole thing back to the manufacturer in order to switch to a new filter, but he's wrong that the filter is considered the serialized silencer; the adapter is actually considered the silencer.USAF_Vet said:
I've heard of manufacturers also adding a serial number to the filter in addition to the adapter, but I don't know if this is explicitly required by the ATF or if it's just an extra step the manufacturers take to cover their rear-ends.
Think of it this way: My Octane 9's tube is the registered silencer that has the serial number on it; the baffles have no markings on them whatsoever. But the baffles are considered controlled silencer parts, so I can't have any extra baffles and I can't give any of those baffles to anyone else who isn't part of my trust.
On an oil filter silencer, the ATF has decided that the oil filter is just like the baffles on my Octane. And just as I would have to send my whole Octane with all the baffles back to SilencerCo if I ever needed any of the baffles replaced, the whole oil filter adaptor with the used oil filter have to be sent to a manufacturer in order to switch out for a new oil filter.
USAF_Vet
Member
Ah, I see. But I can also see a bunch of people going to Autozone or Wal-Mart and buying a new filter and threading it onto the adapter themselves, and simply chucking the old one in the trash. Again, it's another entirely unenforceable law. At least with "completed" baffles, they serve no alternate purpose. An undrilled oil filter in the box on the shelf in the garage, next to a jug of 10W30... gonna be hard to prove it's really a user serviceable spare for the suppressor.
Not that I want to be the test case.
Not that I want to be the test case.
USAF_Vet
Member
With the Maglight silencers, undrilled, unformed automotive freeze plugs can be had in spare. You just can't form and drill them into baffles. Doing so in the security and privacy of your own home or garage would be illegal. Just like replacing baffles with those drilled and formed baffles would also be illegal. Throwing out old baffles would be evidence tampering.
Thank goodness for that. I appreciate the hard work the ATF and other federal agencies go through in order to keep me safe from bad people.
Thank goodness for that. I appreciate the hard work the ATF and other federal agencies go through in order to keep me safe from bad people.
Theohazard
Member
I agree entirely. I wonder how many people actually have a manufacturer switch out their oil filters? I'll bet it's not many.USAF_Vet said:
pjeski
Member
There is not an oal limit for handguns at least federally. (States may vary). The only reason the Franklin is a firearm instead of a pistol is the VFG. It isn't an AOW because of the length, but without the VFG, federally it would be a pistol. Also, even over 26", if you actually conceal it on your person it is an AOW.
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Theohazard
Member
No. This is completely incorrect.pjeski said:
Below 26", it's a pistol and can't have a VFG; the addition of a VFG would make it an AOW. Above 26", it doesn't matter if it has a VFG or not; either way it's just a "firearm".
The reason the Franklin is a "firearm" is because the overall length is 26" or more. You could take off that VFG and it wouldn't change a thing.
Elkins45
Member
I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to be caught with a filter that didn't fit any of my vehicles but just coincidentally fit my solvent trap can.
pjeski
Member
Please cite anything that says that per the Feds, a pistol can't be over 26".
In the mean time, read the letter on the XO-26 and how it was determined to be what it is:
http://www.franklinarmory.com/XO-26_Letter__c_.pdf
Theohazard
Member
Pjeski: So what you're saying is that the only thing that makes the Franklin gun a "firearm" and not a pistol is that its overall length is 26" AND it has an VFG? So you're saying that without the VFG it would still be a pistol no matter what the overall length?
I was always under the impression that once a pistol reached an overall length of 26" it became a "firearm" and that's why it can have a VFG. But it looks like you're saying that it's the other way around: Once it reaches the overall length of 26" it's still a pistol unless you put a VFG on it, and then it becomes a "firearm".
I'll have to look into this more later, because if I'm wrong I want to make a sure I get the correct information. But if I'm right it shouldn't be too hard to find references.
I was always under the impression that once a pistol reached an overall length of 26" it became a "firearm" and that's why it can have a VFG. But it looks like you're saying that it's the other way around: Once it reaches the overall length of 26" it's still a pistol unless you put a VFG on it, and then it becomes a "firearm".
I'll have to look into this more later, because if I'm wrong I want to make a sure I get the correct information. But if I'm right it shouldn't be too hard to find references.
pjeski
Member
Theo,
That is correct. Per the Feds, it's a pistol if it is designed to be fired with one hand. Even with a 48" barrel. Some states (like MI), length comes into play. To Michigan, the Franklin would still be a "firearm" without the VFG, not a pistol. To the Feds, it would be a pistol.
That is correct. Per the Feds, it's a pistol if it is designed to be fired with one hand. Even with a 48" barrel. Some states (like MI), length comes into play. To Michigan, the Franklin would still be a "firearm" without the VFG, not a pistol. To the Feds, it would be a pistol.
USAF_Vet
Member
The point is, though, you'd have to do something to gain the attention of an alphabet soup organization in the first place. Possession of a registered suppressor is not in and of itself probable cause enough to have anyone look into it.
The smart man would make sure his oil filter suppressor was the same oil filter of his vehicle. Then any undrilled spares can be explained. I do my own oil changes, saves money in the long run (especially with an 8 quart engine), and filters are cheap enough.
Again, I don't want to be a test case, which is why if I ever do buy or build a suppressor, I won't have any spare parts to give the appearance of user serviceability.
USAF_Vet
Member
Federal law does not dictate barrel length for a pistol. At least nowhere I could find. So as long as it does not have a stock, and is designed to be fired with one hand, it's federally a pistol. A VFG designs or redesigns the gun to be used with two hands, so a 26"+ firearm with a VFG is a "Other firearm" on a 4473.
Some states, like Michigan, do not consider it a pistol. One CAN NOT register a 26"+ firearm as a handgun (anymore). The ones previously registered are grandfathered in, which means they can be transported loaded, or carried concealed (as long as they fall between 26"-30"). There is a provision to have these guns removed from the registry, but the grandfathering of loaded transport and concealed carry is lost with it. This is one of the reasons we need to do away with the handgun registry entirely.
Based on the lack of a federal definition for handgun OAL and/or barrel length, that Franklin XO-26 would probably transfer on a 4473 as an "other firearm" as long as it has the VFG. Sans the VFG, from what I can tell, it still meets the federal definition of a pistol. State laws may vary.
Any FFLs care to clarify?
Some states, like Michigan, do not consider it a pistol. One CAN NOT register a 26"+ firearm as a handgun (anymore). The ones previously registered are grandfathered in, which means they can be transported loaded, or carried concealed (as long as they fall between 26"-30"). There is a provision to have these guns removed from the registry, but the grandfathering of loaded transport and concealed carry is lost with it. This is one of the reasons we need to do away with the handgun registry entirely.
Based on the lack of a federal definition for handgun OAL and/or barrel length, that Franklin XO-26 would probably transfer on a 4473 as an "other firearm" as long as it has the VFG. Sans the VFG, from what I can tell, it still meets the federal definition of a pistol. State laws may vary.
Any FFLs care to clarify?
newfalguy101
Member
After reading the ATF letter, that is linked to on the Fulton website, I would do the following:
http://www.franklinarmory.com/XO-26_Letter__c_.pdf
Box 18 "other" because it is NOT a handgun nor a longgun
Box 29 " firearm"
additionally,
Box 30 I would reference the ATF letter
and finally
I would make a copy of the letter and attach it to the 4473.
However, should one come in for transfer, I will be calling my IOI and verifying that the above is correct.
http://www.franklinarmory.com/XO-26_Letter__c_.pdf
Box 18 "other" because it is NOT a handgun nor a longgun
Box 29 " firearm"
additionally,
Box 30 I would reference the ATF letter
and finally
I would make a copy of the letter and attach it to the 4473.
However, should one come in for transfer, I will be calling my IOI and verifying that the above is correct.
Theohazard
Member
Pjeski: I can't find anything anywhere that says the federal limit to a pistol is 26" or less. It looks like a sub-26" pistol with a VFG is an AOW, a longer-than-26" pistol with VFG is a "firearm", and both are pistols without the VFG.
It looks like you and newfalguy101 were right after all. I apologize for correcting both of you with bad information. I know how much I hate that when people do it to me, so I appreciate you not getting upset and instead just correcting me. And as much as I dislike being proven wrong, I dislike it even more when I find out I've been spreading bad information. So thanks for setting me straight.
So does that mean jerkface11 was correct in post #51? When you're building an AR lower into a rifle, does that mean it's a pistol if it's fully assembled (without a VFG) and you haven't put the stock on yet?
It looks like you and newfalguy101 were right after all. I apologize for correcting both of you with bad information. I know how much I hate that when people do it to me, so I appreciate you not getting upset and instead just correcting me. And as much as I dislike being proven wrong, I dislike it even more when I find out I've been spreading bad information. So thanks for setting me straight.
So does that mean jerkface11 was correct in post #51? When you're building an AR lower into a rifle, does that mean it's a pistol if it's fully assembled (without a VFG) and you haven't put the stock on yet?
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