USSR
Member
That will only work because some guys are too d@mn lazy to make their own.
Don
How Many Carry a 1911 with FMJ Ammo?
- Thread starter SharpsDressedMan
- Start date
- Status
That will only work because some guys are too d@mn lazy to make their own.
Don
David E
Member
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2008
- Messages
- 7,459
Because it does. Not all material acts the same. Would you expect water and drywall to have the same effect on the hollowpoint? If you do, then you might want to test your theory first.
Hornady's Critical Defense and Critical Duty ammo addresses the issue pretty well. The bullets use a polymer plug that prevents the hollow point from closing in on itself and acts upon the bullet in a fairly consistent manner regardless of what material it encounters. Standard hollowpoints typically do not.
45crittergitter
Member
Still can't think of a single reason to use the least effective ammo type available....
I was just looking through Jim Cirillo's book, "Guns, Bullets and Gunfights". He was involved in 17 gunfights and attended quite a few autopsies.
His words: "The forensic experts I have questioned while attending many post-mortem examinations stated that they couldn't tell the difference between a .32 caliber round-nose bullet and a .45 round-nose if both had passed through the body, since both make only a small wound channel as they pass through tissue."
The smooth .45 hardball round doesn't make a .45 caliber hole. Living tissue is flexible. The bullet pushes the tissue out of the way, slips through and the tissue returns to its previous shape, minus the damage done in the center of the bullet's path.
Last year, a buddy shot a 130 lb hog 11 times with factory hardball before it went down. When we dressed the hog, the bullet holes looked like they'd been made with an ice pick.
His words: "The forensic experts I have questioned while attending many post-mortem examinations stated that they couldn't tell the difference between a .32 caliber round-nose bullet and a .45 round-nose if both had passed through the body, since both make only a small wound channel as they pass through tissue."
The smooth .45 hardball round doesn't make a .45 caliber hole. Living tissue is flexible. The bullet pushes the tissue out of the way, slips through and the tissue returns to its previous shape, minus the damage done in the center of the bullet's path.
Last year, a buddy shot a 130 lb hog 11 times with factory hardball before it went down. When we dressed the hog, the bullet holes looked like they'd been made with an ice pick.
Too extreme
What I don't understand is how a tee shirt would "clog-up" a hollow point and stop it from expanding.
Thank you for that. I can see how, while trying to punch through several layers of leather jacket, the point might collapse in on itself. I have never once heard it described in this way, and that sounds much more reasonable to me than the point being plugged up with stuff.
I don't recall being confused about what would happen with drywall or water.
What I don't understand is how a tee shirt would "clog-up" a hollow point and stop it from expanding.
Thank you for that. I can see how, while trying to punch through several layers of leather jacket, the point might collapse in on itself. I have never once heard it described in this way, and that sounds much more reasonable to me than the point being plugged up with stuff.
iron horse
Member
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2011
- Messages
- 57
"....so FMJ's and their reliability and superior pentration is a good enough choice, in my opinion. Anyone else less than enchanted with JHP's in the .45?"
No. Any potiental edge I can get I will take. In my Colt 1991A1s I do not compromise 100% reliablity with JHPs. They have feed and ejected everything for over a decade of use.
No. Any potiental edge I can get I will take. In my Colt 1991A1s I do not compromise 100% reliablity with JHPs. They have feed and ejected everything for over a decade of use.
David E
Member
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2008
- Messages
- 7,459
With all due respect, I don't know what particulars you are/were confused about.
I didn't see a mention of a t-shirt clogging up a hollowpoint. Indeed, it very likely would not inhibit expansion at all. But what if the t-shirt was the 4th or 5th layer encountered? It's getting colder, so folks, including bad guys, are wearing a t-shirt, flannel shirt, sweater, polar fleece vest and a winter coat. These layers would typically plug up most JHP's and prevent or seriously inhibit their expansion.
My drywall/water example illustrates how two different mediums have two very different effects in the same bullet. Obviously, you can't choose the ideal situation or barriers, so you therefore are subject to chance on bullet expansion.
Why fill the JHP with a polymer plug that's been exhaustively researched and tested? Because the plug is a constant, engineered to behave the same way, regardless of obstacles encountered.
Who's fooling who
What I said was I was always confussed about putting stuff in a hollow point bullet to keep it from cloging up with stuff. The drywall/water examples are yours, I didn't bring them up you did.
The very design of a HOLLOW point suggests to me that it fill up with stuff in order to expand. Are you with me so far?
When people, you for example, say clothing "plugs up" a hollow point that sounds to me like exactly what should happen in order for the hollow point to expand.
When people, you for example, say something like
That makes much more sense to me as it suggests an entirely different senario, that does not involve plugging up, but rather covering over the hollow point. I can invision the heavy clothing wrapping around the hollow point preventing it from opening.
It's a simple difference in terminology, but one builds the right image for me.
Do you understand?
PS: I am a native Floridian, (thus the T shirt reference) we don't wear long pants most of the time, so all this layering stuff is a bit unusual to us.
What I said was I was always confussed about putting stuff in a hollow point bullet to keep it from cloging up with stuff. The drywall/water examples are yours, I didn't bring them up you did.
The very design of a HOLLOW point suggests to me that it fill up with stuff in order to expand. Are you with me so far?
When people, you for example, say clothing "plugs up" a hollow point that sounds to me like exactly what should happen in order for the hollow point to expand.
When people, you for example, say something like
That makes much more sense to me as it suggests an entirely different senario, that does not involve plugging up, but rather covering over the hollow point. I can invision the heavy clothing wrapping around the hollow point preventing it from opening.
It's a simple difference in terminology, but one builds the right image for me.
Do you understand?
PS: I am a native Floridian, (thus the T shirt reference) we don't wear long pants most of the time, so all this layering stuff is a bit unusual to us.
Some "stuff" is more dense than other "stuff". How dence it is can affect expansion. Bullet makers try to make bullets expand over a wide range of stuff. By using stuff with a consistantly dense they can better control expansion.
David E
Member
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2008
- Messages
- 7,459
I don't know how you can "invision" that if you had even a basic understanding of how bullets behave when they hit things like, for example, heavy clothing. The clothing won't "wrap around the bullet preventing it from opening," the hollow point will simply act like a cookie cutter punching out little discs of clothing that collect inside the hollow point as the bullet perforates each layer. Enough layers and the hollow point gets filled up before encountering flesh, in which it was designed to expand. So filled, the fluid dynamics required by the HP for proper expansion are affected.
Can you "invision" that?
The poly plug prevents the HP from getting filled up with the wrong stuff needed for proper expansion.
Do you understand?
not even close.
JohnhenrySTL
Member
I sometimes carry a CZ-82. I load it with fmjs. I grabbed it the other night when the cops were chasing somebody through my yard. I wasnt concerned about hps or fmjs. I have shot that gun enough to know it would be fine. Fmjs have killed more people than jhps. I have also read that fmjs are better for defense in 9x18 anyway. The article claimed fmjs in 9x18, do more damage in balistic geletin. Anyway, my other more modern handguns are loaded with jhps. I wouldnt wanna get hit byy any .45, no matter what.
mljdeckard
Member
I've said already, but I'll repeat it, I think that the Hornady CD is a gimmick. Not necessarily bad defensive ammo, but I don't think it is any more or less likely to expand through clothing than any other defensive ammo. I intend to buy some soon to test this.
David E
Member
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2008
- Messages
- 7,459
Knock yourself out.
Guns and Ammo TV just rebroadcast the segment highlighting Hornady's new Critical Duty ammo in ballistic gelatin penetrating such things as drywall, sheet metal, plywood, heavy clothing, glass, etc (IE; the FBI testing protocols) and it performed very consistently.
But I'm sure your testing will be much more in depth....
mljdeckard
Member
It's not penetration I am mocking. It's whether or not it is more or less likely than any other defensive round to expand or fail to expand through thick clothing. They say it is a common problem, I don't think it is. And if it is, I don't think their little plug solves it.
mljdeckard
Member
I doubt that.
David E
Member
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2008
- Messages
- 7,459
I suppose that depends on you.
I think you are mistaken
David, You are right: I don't have a clear understanding of the dynamics involved when a hollow point goes through clothing and or flesh, however it appears you're not the authority you think you are either. If you were you wouldn't use terms like, and I quote
I also don't spend a lot of time in the kitchen with cookie cutters, but your analogy of hollow points punching out little discs of clothing that collect inside doesn't make any sense if your statement "The bullets use a polymer plug that prevents the hollow point from closing in on itself" is to be taken as fact.
So if you would, open up one of your books and piece together some helpful, condescending remark that explains how a bullet "closes in on itself" while "filling up" with clothing.
David, You are right: I don't have a clear understanding of the dynamics involved when a hollow point goes through clothing and or flesh, however it appears you're not the authority you think you are either. If you were you wouldn't use terms like, and I quote
and then say something like...
Now I may not be the rocket scientist you are, but even I can see those two statements are discribing two completely different actions.
I also don't spend a lot of time in the kitchen with cookie cutters, but your analogy of hollow points punching out little discs of clothing that collect inside doesn't make any sense if your statement "The bullets use a polymer plug that prevents the hollow point from closing in on itself" is to be taken as fact.
So if you would, open up one of your books and piece together some helpful, condescending remark that explains how a bullet "closes in on itself" while "filling up" with clothing.
In the interest of understanding
In the interest of better understanding the SD ammo I have been carrying....
After an hour or two searching the internet for an explanation as to why hollow points don’t reliably expand. Here’s what I came up with:
Hollow points in the traditional sense rely on hydraulic pressure in the hollow cavity to expand. The designers have taken advantage of the fact that the human body is approximately 60% liquid. This expansion does not always take place if the cavity “fills up” with clothing because hydraulic pressure from the fluids in the body is required to “split” the bullet open. If the cavity is filled with enough clothing, the design pressures are not reached and the bullet doesn’t open.
The next type of “hollow point” isn’t really hollow at all. It has what Hornaday refers to as a flexible tip that compresses to open the cavity, preventing clogging and better controlling expansion by a means of what I like to call self contained hydraulics.
The last of the designs I came across was a design that appears to be a full metal jacket from the exterior, however the nose is designed to collapse against a core of some type of softer material. I believe this is the design of the Federal GuardDog.
I am not a bullet designer, so if you take issue with the basic concepts please feel free to correct me. I am not advocating the use of any particular design, just trying to explain in laymen’s terms what is available to those of us that don't already know everything.
In the interest of better understanding the SD ammo I have been carrying....
After an hour or two searching the internet for an explanation as to why hollow points don’t reliably expand. Here’s what I came up with:
Hollow points in the traditional sense rely on hydraulic pressure in the hollow cavity to expand. The designers have taken advantage of the fact that the human body is approximately 60% liquid. This expansion does not always take place if the cavity “fills up” with clothing because hydraulic pressure from the fluids in the body is required to “split” the bullet open. If the cavity is filled with enough clothing, the design pressures are not reached and the bullet doesn’t open.
The next type of “hollow point” isn’t really hollow at all. It has what Hornaday refers to as a flexible tip that compresses to open the cavity, preventing clogging and better controlling expansion by a means of what I like to call self contained hydraulics.
The last of the designs I came across was a design that appears to be a full metal jacket from the exterior, however the nose is designed to collapse against a core of some type of softer material. I believe this is the design of the Federal GuardDog.
I am not a bullet designer, so if you take issue with the basic concepts please feel free to correct me. I am not advocating the use of any particular design, just trying to explain in laymen’s terms what is available to those of us that don't already know everything.
SharpsDressedMan
member
This thread has been pretty interesting. Initially, I just wondered if there were any other stubborn, jaded guys like myself who, along the way, started to feel that getting too worked up over hollow point ammo in the .45 was a waste of time. The HP guys have made some good arguments, and others have supplied us with the latest info to base decisions on. For me, it boils down more to whether I feel any particular .45 I have will be RELIABLE with HP's. I think they do offer a "knockdown" advantage, meaning they would be slightly more effective than FMJ's, but for some guns (that I do not care to dump money into to throat, polish, or gunsmith in some other way) that I own, just using FMJ's is "adequate", as the .45 caliber is ahead of many other cartridges, "as-is". As we see, opinions vary, and to each their own, but for a few guns that I put into CCW rotation, FMJ's will do for the day. I will seriously exploit the use of HP's in guns that meet the "hollowpoint reliable" criteria. And, since I load, cost of ammuntion is not much of an issue, especially with practice ammo.
Last edited:
- Status