How should I respond to an anti from europe?

[Isildur]

Then they had to sell the idea that self defense was wrong (and it is illegal). And now many cry about whats' to be done, and can't face the inevitable.

There may be exceptions but to a large degree those who cry about what the situation is like today never supported and to a certain degree "resisted" the development in the past(at least in endless arguments with Antis).(Edit:Or did I get you wrong and you refer to the Antis crying about the rising crimes rates etc.?)

Although I agree that we have a lot of jerks here in Europe there are always some people who've got their mind right - so please do not generalize although it probably looks attractive.

Anti-Americanism is widespread across Europe but there are also people with a different view(like me). Generally there are some conservatives and libertarians who oppose it although they are only a tiny minority.


I do not want to find excuses for this BS, I simply want to mention that there are always people who oppose the BS and I for example certainly do because otherwise I would not be here but on some German Anti-Forums instead.

 

[Tom Fury]

Speaking from limited experience, specifically Brits

Haven't tried to do this argument with anyone else;

There is a mentality here that condemns all "violence", and brings SD under that heading. The argument goes, as someone said elsewhere yesterday; "violence begets violence."
I often hear all the anti mantras; "If you own a gun, they'll just take it and use it on you." "It makes you as bad as they are." As if the gun itself has some magical power to turn men violent.
I have noticed something about Brits: Underneath, they're all fighters. Forget the Nazis, the VC, the Taliban; never, ever corner a Brit; they'll take you down too. Not saying they're inherently violent, but in combat, they're devils.
I think the British Govt. knows this and just doesn't trust them with weapons. I Rev was enough.

A lot of this discussion in Europe should be about power; and how come the individual has less and less of it, as more and more is exchanged for financial security of a sort thru Government control. You are told you surrendered it for something better, but I haven't heard what that is and I believe its' an inflated illusion of restraint, reasonableness and civility.

Outlaws will never respect it anyway.

Remember the X-File where the BG is holding a gun on Scully, threatening "I'll shoot her!" and Mulder, staring down the sights of his S&W 5906, asks him: "And then what do you think will happen?" (Groundhog Day) Violent men must be stopped; how else do you do that? There is a moral code that makes the must an imperative. Evil, violent men seem to have no fear of retribution for their actions, but they should.
One is no less evil because they are civil about it.

Not generalizing beyond UK: I refer to the average man on the street I usually encounter in the village market. Noteable exceptions are older Brits, and shooters (I am referring to the local pheasant shoot group, all save one (ex army) over 50 with very expensive (gorgeous) shotguns and Land Rovers.

Americans are perceived as senselessly violent as a whole society. They love it on our telly, but believing they are the last rational people on the planet, deplore it in our society.

Others have argued that the freedoms Americans enjoy and the mentality it creates are just unfathomable to most on the Continent and the UK. I agree. You are not having this discussion on a level playing field; the average European believes he is assuming the moral high ground, and the average Yank thinks the Euro hasn't a clue what hes' talking about.
I think they have been brainwashed into their chains and taught to argue for them.

There was some brainwashing involvedon't kid yourself about how American guns will be taken; they'll come for your brain first.

Hating Americans is the new black; you don't have to know why you do it; its' just cool. We thought we were somehow immune from such ignorance/arrogance.
Having said all that, I think we're due for a rethink about how we do business too
So much for rational, reasonable: they don't always get it done.
TF

 

[budney]

Americans are perceived as senselessly violent as a whole society. They love it on our telly, but believing they are the last rational people on the planet, deplore it in our society.

That's a big part of the problem. They imagine that gunfights are erupting on every street corner. We may have more shootings than they do, but it's still a small number against the overall population (and, IIUC, they have more rapes than we do). In short, they watch way too much TV.

I think they have been brainwashed into their chains and taught to argue for them.

Quote of the day.

--Len.

 

[Dave Workman]

Well, right after Virginia Tech, I wound up doing a lot of air time on the BBC. During one 24-hour stretch, the blighters woke me up at 11 p.m. and again at about 2:30 a.m. and then one afternoon one sweet lady found me vial cell-phone on the side of a mountain, bucking up a log with my chainsaw, and just seemed all goose pimples over the fact that here was this Yank tramping around the Western forests with a sixgun, lopping down winter firewood...or some such nonsense.

Anyway, this one twerp got me on the air and began quizzing me about why Americans are so enamored with firearms.

A: "It's because of these guns that we're no longer British subjects."

That seemed to get his attention.
Then one of these knotheads tried to corner me about America being such a dangerous place with all of these armed citizens.

A: "Well, if this is such a rotten country, tell me why so many people are trying to sneak in instead of lining up to get out."

Yep, that's what I'd tell him. And make yourself sound "colorful." Europeans, especially the Brits, are enamored with "colorful Yanks." That one gal kept telling me I sounded right out of a John Ford cinema (whatever the hell that is).

Oh, and don't forget to mention that "Beef is what's fer dinner"

They love that.

 

[JohnL2]

I have noticed something about Brits: Underneath, they're all fighters. Forget the Nazis, the VC, the Taliban; never, ever corner a Brit; they'll take you down too. Not saying they're inherently violent, but in combat, they're devils.

(chuckling) I don't doubt that. Those soccer riots are a trip. Also, general hooliganism can match any gangbanger here in brutality.

A lot of this discussion in Europe should be about power; and how come the individual has less and less of it, as more and more is exchanged for financial security of a sort thru Government control. You are told you surrendered it for something better, but I haven't heard what that is and I believe its' an inflated illusion of restraint, reasonableness and civility.

Seems to be a trend in Western society. It's slowly but surely happening here.
Beware of ingenious sophistry.

 

[DomMega]

I usually tear people up in online anti-gun debates. Most base their logic in a nonsensical diatribe of false information and random social bias. Especially in Europe where the general philosophy is, "Well, I can't legally own guns, so why should you?" I've come to find out over the years through talking to people from Europe, Russia, China, Japan, the Middle East, and even the Caribbean that crime exists everywhere, bottom line. Sometimes that crime isn't mortally wounding but more of an inconvenience. Sometimes people who put their guard down in the same places where the inconvenient happens, end up losing their lives because they were dealing with a much more violent individual that day. It's always the same arguments, like in Michael Moore's film "Bowling for Columbine" where he presents the audience with a bunch of half-truths and doctored information and expects them to eat it up completely. The sad thing is that most people do and have a hard time concluding their own ideas so they rely on others. When we find ourselves residing with the majority its best to step back and reflect on whats going on, so says Mark Twain.

I'm sure the Jews in Nazi-controlled Germany enjoyed being disarmed so that they had no way of defending themselves against government tyranny by Hitler before they were shipped off in trains and killed at death camps. Hitler knew that an armed "scapegoat" would be that much harder to take control over than an unarmed "scapegoat." You can go anywhere in this debate. My first inclination would be to start giving them some statistics about falling crime in areas where CCW's are allowed and how in places like Los Angeles crime is out of control. I didn't read all 5 pages of this but if nobody has taken the Switzerland stance yet thats always practically mandatory your first time debating the anti's.

And also, give them the link to the Penn and Teller "Bull$hit" episode regarding the fallacy of gun control and how it makes no sense.

 

[Blackbeard]

America isn't all that violent. I've lived here my entire life and have yet to hear a shot fired in anger.

 

[TEDDY]

response

No one has brought up the fact that the gov of USA arms the people. remember the DCM or as now CMP.I bought springfields for $15-- 45 colts for $18.--carbines for $20.now their much more. and the answer to all arguments is get your selves another sucker the next time your over run.Id say socialism is winning in euro.

 

[Fosbery]

I can remember when the British government sold off its L39 sniper rifles and bullpup L98-GP rifles to civillian shooters. My father remembered when every man who could hold a rifle was given one, or a sten gun or bren gun or some such. Nowadays though it would be a scandal in the media if the government was caught selling guns to British citizens. The people don't even trust themselves.

Not every Brit, or indeed every European, is an anti. And even those who are vary in their degrees from those who have simply accepted the general consensus without ever giving it much thought, to vehement anti-freedom loons. I think you'll find most are the former and, if arguments are put to them in the right way, they will at least come to see your position as reasonable, even if they don't agree. Many more can be turned pro-gun of course, they just need talking to in the right way.

 

[langenc]

Dommega-the Jews now have a motto-- "NEVER AGAIN" referring to them. It is odd that nearly 100% of Jews in the US congress are ANTI 2A-big time. But someone in their midst says "NEVER AGAIN????"

 

[PILMAN]

Dommega-the Jews now have a motto-- "NEVER AGAIN" referring to them. It is odd that nearly 100% of Jews in the US congress are ANTI 2A-big time. But someone in their midst says "NEVER AGAIN????"

That's because they believe no one else should be armed except themselves. Look at Feinstein, she has a CCW permit yet it's nearly impossible for anyone else to get a concealment permit in California. I talk to Jewish friends who live there and end up carrying concealed illegally (not saying it's right) because it's nearly impossible. Not sure what the deal is with the politicians.

 

[JWarren]

Not sure what the deal is with the politicians.

--Power.

--Control.

--Living outside the "Real" World.

--Villianizing and scapegoating to get votes.

--Covering the fact that they have NO real and workable plan to address crime.

--Pandering to special interest groups.

--Redirection of blame so that failed social and cultural initiatives are not blamed.

--Have listened to John Lennon's "Imagine" too many times and actually believe that is possible.

--Hasn't figured out how to make people and human nature illegal.... yet.


Think I hit most of them.


-- John

 

[Silvanus]

Is it really that bad?

Guns are just not a part of our culture as they are in America. When you mention guns to people who don't know anything about them, they mostly think about Hollywood movies and videogames. Of course those paint a rather negative picture of gun ownership. Most people will say that it is OK to hunt and to do bullseye shooting and things like that but they will question the "need" (and of course "need" is only one of many reasons we buy guns) for military style fireams.
Concealed carry is virtually impossible for civilians in Europe. So self defence with firearms doesn't exist. Even if you shoot an intruder in your home you're most likely to be punished yourself. That sucks, period. I live in the country and it's quite peaceful out here, but crime is pretty bad in a lot of the bigger cities. The Government would rather see you beat up or stabbed than give you the right to defend yourself with a firearm. You can't reason with the antis.
Our very own history, as well as statistics on crime rates after allowing concealed carry in your country, proves them wrong, but whatever...The important people are protected by armed bodyguards anyway, so what's the big deal? And there's always the "professionals" (police) who might arrive half an hour after a call
I wish we had the freedom you people have in the US *sigh*

 

[spankaveli]

Don't bother responding. Do you really think you are going to change his/her mind?

came in here to post this

 

[patentmike]

You mean Eurabia?

Does the person you are arguing with avoid certain areas because of the "disaffected youth"?

Europe is history.

 

[Tom Fury]

From a novel:

" He recalled the old British spy chief in the window table at Whites' as the left wing demonstrators went by...
..."They'll never forgive you, dear boy," said the old man. "Never expect it and you'll never be disappointed. Your country is a constant reproach. It is rich to their poor, strong to their weak, vigorous to their idle, enterprising to their reactionary, ingenious to their bewildered, can-do to their sit-and-wait,thrusting to their stunted.
It only needs one demagogue to arise to shout: "Everything the Americans have they stole from you", and they'll believe it. Like Shakespeares' Caliban,their zealots stare in the mirror and roar in rage at what they see.

That rage becomes hatred, the hatred needs a target. The working class of the third world does not hate you, it is the pseudointellectuals. If they ever forgive you, they must indict themselves.
So far, their hatred lacks the weaponry.
One day they will acquire that weaponry.
Then you will have to fight or die.
Not in tens but in tens of thousands."
Thirty years down the line, Devereaux was sure the old Brit had got it right. After Somalia, Kenya, Tanzania, Aden, his country was in a new war and did not know it. The tragedy was made worse by the fact the establishment was steeped in ostriches as well."

I've been pondering this lately, and some other statements he makes about Hate/Terrorism.

Frederick Forsyth/Avenger.
Cheers, TF

 

[Remontoire]

\\\"Well, I can\\\'t legally own guns, so why should you?\\\"

Where in Europe is that country ? It used to be the case ... in communist Eastern Europe. 18 years ago.

Even the most Orwellian country, the UK, allows people to own some guns.
Owning semi-auto handguns is perfectly legal in my country, and getting a permit is maybe a one week affair that\\\'ll put you back 30$.

If you are a hard core gun freak( or collector), it\\\'s even possible to browbeat the state into letting you own .50 cal machine guns ... it\\\'s hard but it\\\'s been done.
(that\\\'s the situation in Czech Republic... elsewhere, auto weapons are generally banned, but other weapons are quite available)

Concealed carry is quite possible, in some places. It is here. (Czechia and Slovakia) If you shoot someone in your home, and it\'s not your wife and it\'s deemed to be reasonable defense (he isn\'t holed from the back...), expect some legal hassle, but you won\'t go to jail for long..(maybe for the night)

----------

You mean Eurabia?
Does the person you are arguing with avoid certain areas because of the \\\"disaffected youth\\\"?
Europe is history.

Hardly. We Europeans were content to sit back let Serbs massacre the Albanians. (and then look hypocritically outraged, while secretly being glad someone did the dirty work).- We don\\\'t like them, no one likes them. But then you American killjoys stepped in... not to help the Serbs dispose of a worthless, nasty, drug* and slave dealing, Muslim nationality ... but to save it! Kosovo was one huge welfare slum, and it is now, only it has more crime since NATO threw the Serbs out.
Everyone was flabbergasted.

*usually, the word Albanian, is never used in a sentence which does not contain the word \\\'heroin\\\'. All gangs smuggling heroin have Albanians in them..
Europe, my friend, has a history of genocide. (remember WWII ? Now, the Germans had a bright idea with Gypsies, anyone who ever lived by a gypsy family\\\'ll tell you, but exterminating a race of lawyers, doctors, and engineers is just grossly irresponsible and wasteful )

When the going with Muslims gets rough, \\\'ze Germans\\\' and other Europeans\\\'ll do what comes naturally to humans .. fight the \\\'other\\\', tooth and nail, to the last breath. I know I will. That it\\\'ll be easy to distinguish them, by their dark skins, or in case of converts by their cut foreskins\\\'ll only make it easier---
We may have 50 million Muslims by then, but Europe has 550 million people alltogether and lots of firearms manufacturers... even If we discount the Russians with their expertise at killing Muslims of all shapes and sizes, and their world-famous instrument design bureaus...

 

[Fosbery]

Indeed, here in the Uk the only people who can't own guns are those convicted of an offence punishable by more than three years in prison (i.e. felons) and the mentally unstable (including drug addicts, not including gun nuts luckily). Shooting an attacker is fine as long as he is in fact an attacker i.e. not running away.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

\\\"Well, I can\\\'t legally own guns, so why should you?\\\"

Because although criminals can't legally own guns, they do own them. And because as I get older, I find it becomes more and more strenuous to duke it out with multiple attackers armed with knives and clubs.

 

[wjustinen]

It took a while for me to decide to post

My father was wounded in action in Europe in WW2 liberating Holland. My response would be:

Get yourself a gun and learn to use it because if I have anything to do with it my children and grandchildren will never put their lives on the line to pull your fat out of the fire when your life is shattered by inevitable tyranny.

Those who refuse to protect their own have no business telling others how to live their lives.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

That's why I admire Blondie Hassler. Hassler was a Royal Marine who commanded the Cockleshell Heros in WWII. Later on, he was quite a yachtsman and orgainized the OSTAR (Observer Singlehanded Trans-Atlantic Race.) He used to say yachtsmen should not carry radio transmitters, "Because we to to sea for our own pleasure, and if we get in trouble we have no right to call on other men to risk their lives for us."

I would expand that -- those who will not defend themselves have no right to call on other men to risk their lives to protect them.

 

[Scorpiusdeus]

I just had an idea. Tell him you'll just agree to disagree, but not to worry because we'll be there to save their asses "again" the next time they are overrun or up against it.

 

[barman]

Tell him to mind his own business.

You are American, he is European. Different cultures, different histories.

Tell him he's being a bigoted xenophobic moron who won't make an effort to understand another way of life.

THAT should hurt a left-winger. You gotta fight fire with fire.

 

[sterling180]

I can remember when the British government sold off its L39 sniper rifles and bullpup L98-GP rifles to civillian shooters. My father remembered when every man who could hold a rifle was given one, or a sten gun or bren gun or some such. Nowadays though it would be a scandal in the media if the government was caught selling guns to British citizens. The people don't even trust themselves.

I can remember hearing about police forces in the UK selling off their old Smith and Wesson Revolvers on the civillian market,for pistol shooters,in the days before Dunblane.These guns were a bargain basement for practical shooters too,cheaper than a brand new revolver or a Glock.

People seem to forget,that element that makes this nation strong,because at the moment it is run by liberal hippies dressed up as Tory suits,but at least the Tories openly supported shooting sports,to some degree,but they were stuffy bigots and full of you know what.

As for this bumbling prat of an anti,please tell him that there are many shooters in his country and that his country manufactures guns anyway and so get stuffed.

 

[barman]

As for this bumbling prat of an anti,please tell him that there are many shooters in his country and that his country manufactures guns anyway and so get stuffed.

Great point.

Tell him that American law isn't based on hypocrisy, unlike many European laws on firearms.