How to Defend High Capacity Magazines Without Looking Like An Insensitive Moron.

[Pete D.]

Please don't take this set of questions the wrong way......remember, I am on your side. I am also, however, always interested in the nature of facts and where people get them.

Justin, you make some very good points and I couldn't agree more. I do however have an additional point that I would make because I have direct experience with these incidents. I grew up in LA and was around for the Watts Riots as well as the Rodney King and OJ riots and several disasters like earthquakes, fires and floods. When and if these types of events occur mobs also form. That would be my final argument after exhausting the ones you mention. Oh, don't for get Katrina and Sandy for more recent events.

Surveying all of those events......are there any records of people defending their homes using the weapons, etc. that we are discussing? I mean situations where the gun/magazine was needed and used as opposed to being on hand. (I understand that there is a value to the weapon being on hand, even if not used).
Second question, kinda: Any one not familiar with these conversations/threads might well wonder where all of us live that we are so concerned with break-ins, multiple attackers in our homes at night and so on. I am not asking to know where you live but I do wonder about the likelihood of these dark scenarios. That being written....I am also fond of saying to people the "you only have to be wrong once" for a life to change. Are break-ins common where you live?
Pete

 

[Hokkmike]

Obsidian, my apologies. I never meant to come across, nor have a viewed my self as "hard headed". Resolute maybe? Perhaps the premise of the OP is skewed? Should we address the argument by the anti's definition of terms and mindset? Well, certainly if we want to win them over we could, but what do we concede in so doing? Why should I have to justify to anybody the size of the magazines I use? What's next, no camo paint, no red dots? Need I explain it all to their way of thinking and satisfaction? Perhaps they are inconsolable?!!

I guess maybe I am not the one to be in such arguments with these folks. Thank you for your critique. I mean that sincerely.

 

[IlikeSA]

Why not simply point out that no one needs "high capacity" gas tanks in their cars. After all, there are gas stations all over the place, and having high capacity gas tanks could impact the ability of first responders to assist you in case of an accident with a fire. In addition, high capacity gas tanks could harm someone else in the event of an accident, or allow a mass run-over of individuals walking along the street. Ten quarts is more than enough to get from point a to point b, and if you need more, just refuel. After all, if it saves one life...what's wrong with the inconvenience to you?

http://www.sfgate.com/default/article/Chinese-man-drives-car-into-students-injuring-13-4144574.php

 

[Bob2222]

My biggest objection to AWB 2.0 is that by focusing on magazine capacity, they sidestep the actual problems. About half of all murders in the US are committed by a very small but readily identifiable segment of the population, and another 10% of individuals incarcerated for murder are severely mentally ill.

If political correctness dictates that the problem can not be correctly identified, there is absolutely no chance that the problem will be solved. I'm frankly amazed by how little politicians and media figures seem to know about firearms. I'm not a fan of the military draft, but at least when we still had one, most adult males in the United States had a basic technical understanding. And there is the problem, firearms is a subject that the libs and media have no understanding of and no interest in. Even asking questions about the motives behind homicides, about who, exactly, is committing most homicides, about the penal system and and about mental health institutions goes against 50 years of ingrained liberal dogma.

By focusing on magazine capacity and ugly guns and getting AWB 2.0, the libs and the media can then smugly walk away, completely certain that they've accomplished something when they haven't even come close to correctly identifying the problems.

 

[84B20]

Please don't take this set of questions the wrong way......remember, I am on your side. I am also, however, always interested in the nature of facts and where people get them.

Surveying all of those events......are there any records of people defending their homes using the weapons, etc. that we are discussing? I mean situations where the gun/magazine was needed and used as opposed to being on hand. (I understand that there is a value to the weapon being on hand, even if not used).
Second question, kinda: Any one not familiar with these conversations/threads might well wonder where all of us live that we are so concerned with break-ins, multiple attackers in our homes at night and so on. I am not asking to know where you live but I do wonder about the likelihood of these dark scenarios. That being written....I am also fond of saying to people the "you only have to be wrong once" for a life to change. Are break-ins common where you live?
Pete

I live in the United States of America, where these events occur. By your logic I should give up my homeowner insurance since the likelihood of my house burning down is very remote. (I know it is an old argument but appropriate here)

 

[MuleRyder]

I wonder if anything is going to work? There are many good points on here and also many ridiculous ones IMO. I generally agree with Justin's points. Some posters are really grasping for straws like comparing high capacity mags to a high capacity gas tank in your car. Really? I'm just as frustrated as anyone else, but the line from the anti's is still going to be,"Why does anyone need a 30rd mag?" That's a pretty tough question to answer. Many answers on here sound good to us, but simply sound selfish or just plain stupid to the general public. "Because I want one." is not the answer. I don't know the answer myself. We have an uphill battle, no doubt about it.

 

[Zak Smith]

America doesn't run on need.

 

[Obsidian]

Obsidian, my apologies. I never meant to come across, nor have a viewed my self as "hard headed". Resolute maybe? Perhaps the premise of the OP is skewed? Should we address the argument by the anti's definition of terms and mindset? Well, certainly if we want to win them over we could, but what do we concede in so doing? Why should I have to justify to anybody the size of the magazines I use? What's next, no camo paint, no red dots? Need I explain it all to their way of thinking and satisfaction? Perhaps they are inconsolable?!!

I think we generally are all on the same side, and just as passionate as can be about our liberties. We are in a bad spot after decades of media painting all owners or segments of us in the same brush stroke. While there are some on the other side that just can't be reached there are those we can. I think the OP was looking to generate discussion on how to reach those folks that have not closed their minds. And a discussion we have had!

 

[Bubba613]

One of the problems is we are not all on the same side as gun owners. Because "gun owner" is pretty amorphous. While many people drift from one type of shooting to another, or do several, most gun owners don't.
So the trap shooter cannot understand why anyone needs a semi auto with a 30rd magazine. The 3-gun shooter has no use for a $2,000 single shot 32" 12ga. The cowboy action shooter wonder why semi autos exist at all. The hunter can't see why someone would want a 38 lever gun. The bench rest shooter can't figure out why a gun with only 3 inch accuracy is acceptable. The guy with a j-frame for personal defense wonders what you even do with a heavy bolt gun in 6.5BR. Etc.
One of the most worrying things I see is "I'm a gun owner and I don't think anyone needs a 30 round clip."

 

[MuleRyder]

One of the most worrying things I see is "I'm a gun owner and I don't think anyone needs a 30 round clip."

Yes, and how about, "I spent X years in the army and shot M16s and I don't think anyone needs a 30 round clip."

 

[84B20]

One of the most worrying things I see is "I'm a gun owner and I don't think anyone needs a 30 round clip."

Yes, and how about, "I spent X years in the army and shot M16s and I don't think anyone needs a 30 round clip."

Did you actually hear a gun owner or soldier use the word "clip" instead of magazine? If so, they were probably lying to you about it.

 

[22-rimfire]

Why do you buy that 32 oz coke? So it lasts a while... Of course, Bloomberg restricted that to 16 oz. So you buy two. Same as magazines.

Added: Great stocking stuffers for the AR owner! Looks like a lot of stockings are being stuffed in the last two weeks. Merry Christmas!!

 

[Bubba613]

Did you actually hear a gun owner or soldier use the word "clip" instead of magazine? If so, they were probably lying to you about it

Apart from internet commandos a lot of people do actually use the term. And they really do own guns.

 

[84B20]

Apart from internet commandos a lot of people do actually use the term. And they really do own guns.

Unbelievable! :banghead:

 

[47CubPilot]

Why should a United States of America citizen own a modern style semi-auto rifle or pistol? And magazines with more than 10 rounds?

Because our governments, State and Federal, seem to be so terrified that we do.

 

[9MMare]

Second question, kinda: Any one not familiar with these conversations/threads might well wonder where all of us live that we are so concerned with break-ins, multiple attackers in our homes at night and so on. I am not asking to know where you live but I do wonder about the likelihood of these dark scenarios. That being written....I am also fond of saying to people the "you only have to be wrong once" for a life to change. Are break-ins common where you live?
Pete

This kind of thinking just takes my breath away. If you read American news (or most other countries') you'll see daily...robberies, rapes, home invasions, car jackings. Occasionally, yes, these are in my town or rural community.

Who does not take any responsible means they can to protect themselves & their families? Is ignoring it responsible? Hoping that it always passes you by, like cancer, is that responsible? I fear cancer and try to maintain a lifestyle to minimize it. Please tell me....how will the govt or community cops or anyone else SAVE you from crime, violence? They can only respond AFTER.

I try to maintain a lifestye that minimizes my being a victim of violent crime. I do not believe that a gun is the answer for everyone. It is only one thing that I have at my disposal on my rural property, in my vehicle, on my person.

Why on EARTH would I not take advantage of keeping firearms that I enjoy training with and can make that difference in saving my life? Why should I ignore the advantage that they give criminals who most surely do have them?

 

[thump_rrr]

I live in Canada where we have a 5 round limit on semi auto rifle magazines.
I have a 5/30 P Mag which is a 30 round P Mag with a 1/8" aluminum POP rivet
limiting it to 5 rounds.
Anybody who asks my opinion gets a visual explanation whenever possible that an aluminum POP rivet will not stop somebody who has criminal intent.

 

[Hokkmike]

Strictly speaking, the reason I own a semi-automatic rifle is because they are fun to shoot. A larger capacity magazine is simply more convenient. I do not think in a gun battle with the type of intruder that I am likely to face that the 23, 24, etc., shot would be critical. I have to says also that I just think the 30 round magazine look the best with the gun.

Not very technical, not very "needy".....but accurate.

 

[hq]

Do these people really think that five or ten shots is ok, but subsequent ones are somehow evil? Or, in the highly hypothetical case when a criminal really can't get his/her hands on higher capacity magazines, what problem, exactly, will changing from inefficient spray&pray to aimed shots and fast reloads solve?

How does a high capacity magazine become perfectly acceptable in the hands of a policeman, then?

 

[Roadking Rider]

If the Gov't would like to buy my 10+ rd mags from me that's fine I'll just buy twice as many tens. How long does it take to change a mag in a rifle or pistol a whole two seconds?
I myself will never get into a high cap mag discussion with a gun hater. Total waste of time.

 

[k_dawg]

Since the objective of Anti Rights Groups is not an increase in safety, and a reduction in violence; there is no reason to expect that gun bans will achieve it.

 

[gwsut]

IF I can be trusted and have a 10 round magazine .... Why can't I be trusted with a 30 round?

 

[Pete D.]

Mis interpret

I live in the United States of America, where these events occur. By your logic I should give up my homeowner insurance since the likelihood of my house burning down is very remote. (I know it is an old argument but appropriate here)

You have misinterpreted my post. "By your logic"??? I drew no conclusions....I asked a couple of questions. I also stated that I am on your side.
Even as I wrote that note, there was a pistol not more than ten inches from my hand.
Similarly,

This kind of thinking just takes my breath away. If you read American news (or most other countries') you'll see daily...robberies, rapes, home invasions, car jackings. Occasionally, yes, these are in my town or rural community.

Who does not take any responsible means they can to protect themselves & their families? Is ignoring it responsible? Hoping that it always passes you by, like cancer, is that responsible? I fear cancer and try to maintain a lifestyle to minimize it. Please tell me....how will the govt or community cops or anyone else SAVE you from crime, violence? They can only respond AFTER.

Questions....I asked.....drew no conclusions, offered no criticism, no recommendation to ignore.
If you read more into the questions, you needn't have.
The first question did not get answered.
Ultimately, the second question resolved itself to "Are break ins common where you live." That is a yes/no question.
Pete

 

[84B20]

You have misinterpreted my post. "By your logic"??? I drew no conclusions....I asked a couple of questions. I also stated that I am on your side.
Even as I wrote that note, there was a pistol not more than ten inches from my hand.
Similarly,

I don't see how I am misinterperting your message. If you say there is little likelyhood that there is a need for large mags then my point is correct and there is no need to justify your position by stating you have a gun nearby.

 

[wacki]

Hog hunting... in some areas hogs are pests and you are trying to eradicate an entire herd.