Wildalaska
member
No actually your words were "question the wisdom"....
My response stands...
WildiknowmanyguideswhousethelevergunsAlaska
Hunting African Lion & Kodiac Bears: What would you chose for rifle?
- Thread starter Glamdring
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No actually your words were "question the wisdom"....
My response stands...
WildiknowmanyguideswhousethelevergunsAlaska
nextjoe
Member
A double has the same weaknesses, yes, but if it's built to use a low-pressure cartridge it should be very reliable. Where you hear about problems is with things like .458 Win Mag doubles, since the Win Mag is belted instead of rimmed and operates at high pressure. Mismatch between the action and the pressure it's being asked to take.
So, if the caliber is appropriate to the action type, things should work well. That's my whole point here. If you take a lever gun built for low-pressure cartridges and start jacking up the pressure, there *might* be problems. And for dangerous game, that's something I won't risk.
Glamdring, know anyone who might fund an expedition to test this?
Best,
Joe
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Glamdrig,
Your reasoning is sound as far as functionality is concerned. But having been in some tight situations I've dicovered that there really is a reason the double gun has become king in close quarters type dangerous game hunting.
If you've ever been in the tall grass with an angry elephant at close quaters you'll soon find out why the double gun is king. Same goes for buffalo, leapord, lion, hippo you name it.
The whole point of a double gun is this it is capable of firing an adequate calibre for knocking down the largest of dangerous game. And it is capable of delivering a second shot faster than any other rifle configuration on earth when using an adequate caliber.
While it is true that in the days of lore many pros/ivory hunters used single falling blocks because that was what was available. They were replaced by turn bolts and doubles as they became available because they are a better tool for the job.
I've been in two situations were I was wishing for the fast handling characteristics of a double. Once on a gut shot buff in the tall grass and the other time with a particularly pissed off cow elephant that I stumbled into also in in the grass at about 25 feet.
My current heavy rifle is a custom built stainless mod 70 in 458 lott. A very adequate rifle and caliber set up. But my double .470 NE arrives next week
I'm not saying not to use what you want, I'm just saying that in a tight situation I like to have more than one round. (And I want more power than even a hot 45-70) The 5000 ftlb magic number has alot of validity....And larger bore diameter/ heavier bullets do make a difference on knock down on thick skinned dangerous game.
Top ten reasons to own a double.
1. Much of the stuff you've heard about doubles and there "weak" action have been solved with modern meturolgy. They really are quite stout now days. (Note never use high pressure rounds in a double .458 win + double=BIG TROUBLE! EAA stopping rifle included!)
2. Think of it as two single shot rifles tied together (at least in one with two triggers/hammers and a non automatic safety) so if one rifle dies you still have the other barrel.
3. Automatic ejectors makes it actually faster to shoot four rounds than a turn bolt. (I know... but it's been proven time and again.)
4. Nothing on earth handles faster than a double rifle that is fit correctly.
5. Nitro express rounds while not any more powerfull than current shorter rounds are so long and fat they just look more powerfull.
6. Most likely you'll be the only kid at the range to have one.
7. You really didn't need all that money in the bank anyway just sitting there collecting all that pesky interest.
8. At $10.00 a round your not just shooting your helping increase the GNP.
9. Chicks dig it.
10. Cool factor is so high that sun glasses are required at all times when carrying it.
Your reasoning is sound as far as functionality is concerned. But having been in some tight situations I've dicovered that there really is a reason the double gun has become king in close quarters type dangerous game hunting.
If you've ever been in the tall grass with an angry elephant at close quaters you'll soon find out why the double gun is king. Same goes for buffalo, leapord, lion, hippo you name it.
The whole point of a double gun is this it is capable of firing an adequate calibre for knocking down the largest of dangerous game. And it is capable of delivering a second shot faster than any other rifle configuration on earth when using an adequate caliber.
While it is true that in the days of lore many pros/ivory hunters used single falling blocks because that was what was available. They were replaced by turn bolts and doubles as they became available because they are a better tool for the job.
I've been in two situations were I was wishing for the fast handling characteristics of a double. Once on a gut shot buff in the tall grass and the other time with a particularly pissed off cow elephant that I stumbled into also in in the grass at about 25 feet.
My current heavy rifle is a custom built stainless mod 70 in 458 lott. A very adequate rifle and caliber set up. But my double .470 NE arrives next week
I'm not saying not to use what you want, I'm just saying that in a tight situation I like to have more than one round. (And I want more power than even a hot 45-70) The 5000 ftlb magic number has alot of validity....And larger bore diameter/ heavier bullets do make a difference on knock down on thick skinned dangerous game.
Top ten reasons to own a double.
1. Much of the stuff you've heard about doubles and there "weak" action have been solved with modern meturolgy. They really are quite stout now days. (Note never use high pressure rounds in a double .458 win + double=BIG TROUBLE! EAA stopping rifle included!)
2. Think of it as two single shot rifles tied together (at least in one with two triggers/hammers and a non automatic safety) so if one rifle dies you still have the other barrel.
3. Automatic ejectors makes it actually faster to shoot four rounds than a turn bolt. (I know... but it's been proven time and again.)
4. Nothing on earth handles faster than a double rifle that is fit correctly.
5. Nitro express rounds while not any more powerfull than current shorter rounds are so long and fat they just look more powerfull.
6. Most likely you'll be the only kid at the range to have one.
7. You really didn't need all that money in the bank anyway just sitting there collecting all that pesky interest.
8. At $10.00 a round your not just shooting your helping increase the GNP.
9. Chicks dig it.
10. Cool factor is so high that sun glasses are required at all times when carrying it.
Last edited:
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The term "tall grass" gets seriously over used. Here is an example of true african tall grass. This was taken on the Kilombero river sept 2002.
Oh and by the way how long did it take you to pick out the mature bull elephant standing at less than 75 yards!
This is double gun country.
I was standing on top of a 20' fly deck from a river boat when I took these. This grass is between 8 and 15' tall.
Oh and by the way how long did it take you to pick out the mature bull elephant standing at less than 75 yards!
This is double gun country.
I was standing on top of a 20' fly deck from a river boat when I took these. This grass is between 8 and 15' tall.
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Maybe this will clear it up for you.
In the first picture the gray blot in the middle of the picture just sticking out of the grass is the top of the elephants head. Next time you go to the zoo look at an african elephant and try to figure out how tall and dense the grass has to be to completley hide an elephant.
This is the same elephant that has just moved into shorter thinner grass.
In the first picture the gray blot in the middle of the picture just sticking out of the grass is the top of the elephants head. Next time you go to the zoo look at an african elephant and try to figure out how tall and dense the grass has to be to completley hide an elephant.
This is the same elephant that has just moved into shorter thinner grass.
Preacherman
Member
Thanks for posting those pictures, H&H... brings back fond memories. Aah, nostalgia!
cooch
Member
I'd be interested to know how many of these penetration tests used identical projectiles. If not, the test is of projectle performance, and is not a valid test of the respective cartridges.
The other valid question, is how often people get charged/bitten/gored/stomped by the wet newsprint that seems to be the usual media for such tests.???
The problem with large, irritated and rapidly impending wildlife is that they don't represent homogenous targets. They have soft bits and hard bits,,,, and some of the soft bits that you really need to make holes in are behind hard bits.
No doubt this one will go on.....
Cooch
The other valid question, is how often people get charged/bitten/gored/stomped by the wet newsprint that seems to be the usual media for such tests.???
The problem with large, irritated and rapidly impending wildlife is that they don't represent homogenous targets. They have soft bits and hard bits,,,, and some of the soft bits that you really need to make holes in are behind hard bits.
No doubt this one will go on.....
Cooch
Keith
Member
Two different subjects, almost - hunting and guiding.
Guides like to carry short, handy, heavy-caliber rifles because they may have to root some wounded critter out of the brush after their client has botched a shot. So, a Guide Gun or big double makes a lot of sense.
For pure hunting, you're better off with a .375 (or something in that class) that gives you additional range.
Of course, either class of rifle will do either job if called upon. You can always get closer with your double or guide gun, or pull the scope off your .375 and follow up a critter in the brush.
Keith
Guides like to carry short, handy, heavy-caliber rifles because they may have to root some wounded critter out of the brush after their client has botched a shot. So, a Guide Gun or big double makes a lot of sense.
For pure hunting, you're better off with a .375 (or something in that class) that gives you additional range.
Of course, either class of rifle will do either job if called upon. You can always get closer with your double or guide gun, or pull the scope off your .375 and follow up a critter in the brush.
Keith
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S&W
The 45-70 is an adequate round for buffalo. As is a 375H&H as are many other rounds. It all boils down to personal preferance. I have no problem what so ever hunting buff with a .375 or a .45-70. Under good conditions.
It's the bad days that make me more happy with a cartridge that fires a 500gr bullet at 2100 fps or greater. It's just my comfort zone in the thick stuff.
A 300gr 375H&H penetrates better than just about anything out there. But a .458 lott with 500gr solid does too and there is a noticable difference in knock down between the two.
When my first glance at a target coming at me in the thick stuff is measured in feet not yards I want something with major authority. A true heavy has a chance of turning a buff to a shoulder shot. I don't think a .375 or a 45-70 will. (and the heavy may not).
Keith,
You have a valid point. And one in which I won't argue. To my way of thinking what happens when the guide ain't there to save your butt?
I always have two rifles in the truck/ boat. A scoped .375 and a proper heavy. Depending on the situation depends on what comes with me on a stalk.
I do believe that a thick skinned dangerous game gun should be iron sighted fast handling and of capable power.. Or be equiped with an extremly low mounted low power variable scope if you shoot that better.
I like ghost rings, Short barrels and positive feed.
The 45-70 is an adequate round for buffalo. As is a 375H&H as are many other rounds. It all boils down to personal preferance. I have no problem what so ever hunting buff with a .375 or a .45-70. Under good conditions.
It's the bad days that make me more happy with a cartridge that fires a 500gr bullet at 2100 fps or greater. It's just my comfort zone in the thick stuff.
A 300gr 375H&H penetrates better than just about anything out there. But a .458 lott with 500gr solid does too and there is a noticable difference in knock down between the two.
When my first glance at a target coming at me in the thick stuff is measured in feet not yards I want something with major authority. A true heavy has a chance of turning a buff to a shoulder shot. I don't think a .375 or a 45-70 will. (and the heavy may not).
Keith,
You have a valid point. And one in which I won't argue. To my way of thinking what happens when the guide ain't there to save your butt?
I always have two rifles in the truck/ boat. A scoped .375 and a proper heavy. Depending on the situation depends on what comes with me on a stalk.
I do believe that a thick skinned dangerous game gun should be iron sighted fast handling and of capable power.. Or be equiped with an extremly low mounted low power variable scope if you shoot that better.
I like ghost rings, Short barrels and positive feed.
Keith
Member
Well, the subject is African lions and Kodiak bears. For them, either a .375 or a .45/70 (with a 530 grain Garret Hamerhead!) will serve!
The only difference is the package the rounds are delivered from and the terrain in which you're confronting them. Most of Kodiak will rival any of the tall grass of Africa - it's only July and the grass is already head high here!
I wouldn't want to be forced to stalk up too close to shoot, so to me the .375 makes a better hunting rifle. For a guide, who may be forced to confront a Kodiak bear up close in the brush (or for those of us who simply need a heavy to pack around for defense), the short, handy Guide Gun makes an awful of sense. A double rifle would be an equally good choice, but I don't think you'll find anybody willing to drag around a rifle of that cost in this climate.
Keith
The only difference is the package the rounds are delivered from and the terrain in which you're confronting them. Most of Kodiak will rival any of the tall grass of Africa - it's only July and the grass is already head high here!
I wouldn't want to be forced to stalk up too close to shoot, so to me the .375 makes a better hunting rifle. For a guide, who may be forced to confront a Kodiak bear up close in the brush (or for those of us who simply need a heavy to pack around for defense), the short, handy Guide Gun makes an awful of sense. A double rifle would be an equally good choice, but I don't think you'll find anybody willing to drag around a rifle of that cost in this climate.
Keith
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My original reply
Keith,
And that is exactly what I recomended for bear and lion. I should add that in that circumstance I also recomend a scoped rifle. Especially for bear and it is almost a given for lion especially while hunting off a bait due to often poor lighting conditions.
I wonder why no one has ever tried a stainless synthetic double like a ruger red stainless only in .45-70 or .375flanged. What an awsome Alaskan double that would be. I wonder if that could be done? Use a stainless red label action and barrell to a rifle round...Hmmmmm...Sorry I've got double rifles on the brain.......
Searcy built a .470 stainless & wood rifle for a while and said he sold several of them to Alaskans but at $16,000 a copy they never went to far.
H&Hhunter:
My point was they used "worse tools" to kill more elephant than I will ever see, let alone shoot. [I don't ever plan to hunt elephant or buff it holds no interest for me.]
Some ivory hunters picked calibers like 303, 7x57, & 6.5's over big bore doubles for much of their shooting even when they had both with them.
I suspect economics, logistics, and ammo capacity (not for firepower, but to counter all the bad primers & other ammo related problems) were couple of the reasons.
I have also noted that most guides/ph's would prefer that their client shoot well with a little caliber vs poorly with a big one.
***
Talk about drifting threads though
My point was they used "worse tools" to kill more elephant than I will ever see, let alone shoot. [I don't ever plan to hunt elephant or buff it holds no interest for me.]
Some ivory hunters picked calibers like 303, 7x57, & 6.5's over big bore doubles for much of their shooting even when they had both with them.
I suspect economics, logistics, and ammo capacity (not for firepower, but to counter all the bad primers & other ammo related problems) were couple of the reasons.
I have also noted that most guides/ph's would prefer that their client shoot well with a little caliber vs poorly with a big one.
***
Talk about drifting threads though
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Glamdrig,
No doubt a true statement.
They are even happier when the client can shoot a big caliber well
As far Ivory hunters using small calibers it's a matter of personal prefrence. Use what you shoot well and you'll stay out of trouble. Professional cullers of today almost all use .458win mag or .375H&H. As in the days of old people will use what is most readily available.
One thing you will never see however is P.H. using a single shot rifle as a back up weapon that would be pure insanity.
Of course as Keith so eloquently mentioned hunting and guiding are two different subjects.
I have a good friend in who owns a ranch in Namibia and has killed 7 or 8 cattle killing lions with his one and only rifle a Ruger #1 in 7X57 mauser.
If you've got the hots for a single shot go for it. All I'm saying is there are better choices for dangerous game in my humble opinon.
No doubt a true statement.
They are even happier when the client can shoot a big caliber well
As far Ivory hunters using small calibers it's a matter of personal prefrence. Use what you shoot well and you'll stay out of trouble. Professional cullers of today almost all use .458win mag or .375H&H. As in the days of old people will use what is most readily available.
One thing you will never see however is P.H. using a single shot rifle as a back up weapon that would be pure insanity.
Of course as Keith so eloquently mentioned hunting and guiding are two different subjects.
I have a good friend in who owns a ranch in Namibia and has killed 7 or 8 cattle killing lions with his one and only rifle a Ruger #1 in 7X57 mauser.
If you've got the hots for a single shot go for it. All I'm saying is there are better choices for dangerous game in my humble opinon.
more 45-70 proof
please look below
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/lupoindex.asp
one mans expierence with the 45-70 on flesh and bone also check the pictures of game taken
please look below
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/lupoindex.asp
one mans expierence with the 45-70 on flesh and bone also check the pictures of game taken
HBK
member
Would an M-14 work?
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
HBK, the .308 will kill the bear or the lion. The primary question is whether they'll die before chomping on you. Killing and stopping are two entirely different issues.
Depending on who you read, it is said that an African lion can charge across 100 yards in three to five seconds. Having twice seen mountain lions moving at Maximum Effort, I believe! I believe! And so I'll leave the scenario to your own imagination...
And keep in mind the discussion is in the context of the hunting ethic, not with full-auto equipment.
Art
Depending on who you read, it is said that an African lion can charge across 100 yards in three to five seconds. Having twice seen mountain lions moving at Maximum Effort, I believe! I believe! And so I'll leave the scenario to your own imagination...
And keep in mind the discussion is in the context of the hunting ethic, not with full-auto equipment.
Art
My personal opinion is that any good deer cartridge will work on lion, they are not a huge or thick skinned critter. IIRC many ordinary people have used cartridges like 7x57, 30-06, 303, etc to take many African lions with no problem.
But were would the fun in that be? That said I would really like at least a medium bore if it was up close and personal.
I recall Teddy Roosevelt saying somewhere that African Lion seemed easier than grizzlies he was used to hunting in lower 48. But I don't remember if he used his '06 or 405 (maybe both?) on lion.
But were would the fun in that be?
That said I would really like at least a medium bore if it was up close and personal.I recall Teddy Roosevelt saying somewhere that African Lion seemed easier than grizzlies he was used to hunting in lower 48. But I don't remember if he used his '06 or 405 (maybe both?) on lion.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Seems to me that there's a bunch of difference between a calm and peaceful critter that doesn't know you're there, and some critter that's pumping a big load of adrenalin.
It's this latter case which redefines the word "insurance".
, Art
It's this latter case which redefines the word "insurance".
, Artcooch
Member
Wasn't it Sir George Grey who made the terminal mistake of trying to stop a Kenya lion with a .280 Ross Rifle?
Possibly the major issue was bullet construction, as I've seen sketches of bullet fragments recovered from the lion.
All the successful users of smallbores seem to have used solids of the greatest weight-for-calibre that were available. Penetration alone was not the issue, but reliable penetration from any angle and without deviation.
I'll have to dig out my copy of Pease' "The Book of the Lion"... but I seem to recall him advocating the use of 12, 10 and possibly even 8-bore rifles as close-range lion-stoppers. Perhaps watching Grey get mauled (he was present) influenced him.
It would me........
Possibly the major issue was bullet construction, as I've seen sketches of bullet fragments recovered from the lion.
All the successful users of smallbores seem to have used solids of the greatest weight-for-calibre that were available. Penetration alone was not the issue, but reliable penetration from any angle and without deviation.
I'll have to dig out my copy of Pease' "The Book of the Lion"... but I seem to recall him advocating the use of 12, 10 and possibly even 8-bore rifles as close-range lion-stoppers. Perhaps watching Grey get mauled (he was present) influenced him.
It would me........
AmericanFreeBird
Member
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Just my .02 but I've done some "normal" bear hunting and I've not seen anyone remind you to bring your backup in either .357mag or .44mag.
A nice six shooter on the hip for close encounters. If you choose the .357mag, solid steel HP bullets will do a grizzley nicely with a head shot or two. The .44mag will do nicely with just about anything, I'd reccommend a JHP Hornady XTP load.
AFB
A nice six shooter on the hip for close encounters. If you choose the .357mag, solid steel HP bullets will do a grizzley nicely with a head shot or two. The .44mag will do nicely with just about anything, I'd reccommend a JHP Hornady XTP load.
AFB
HBK
member
Would a 10mm with the proper ammo work as a backup gun?
Wildalaska
member
I know a young man who just killed a small griz with a 10mm after it charged him. Hes gonna buy another 10 mm for his girlfriend.
Heres a lion shot I just got in:
WildgrowlAlaska
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