I dont need no stinking CCW!

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If it's a "shall-issue" state, why not get the stupid permit and be done with it? The consequences of getting caught are too steep. The consequences of getting caught a second or third time are probably worse.

I have the right to vote. The constitution mentions it. But I can't just walk into a booth and pull levers. The government severely restricts me, limiting me to a specific precinct, not letting me vote unless I register. Whazzup with that? Maybe a "shall-issue" ccw is something like that.

And I'm all for the required training. The more the better. Heck, we should have "ccw" as a required course in high school, sort of like "applied civics".

Regards.
 
Good points.

I think I should point out that the "shall issue" movement started about 20 years ago (actually in Washington State, but Florida gets the credit in the popular mind) and now 3/4s of the states have "shall issue" laws. This is entirely due to two things -- responsible gunowners obeying the laws, and gunowners working within the political system.

Alaska just went to "Vermont Carry" (no permit needed) and there are rumblings that a couple of other states may do the same.

If we simply obey the laws, exercise our rights lawfully, and keep working within the political system, in another 20 years, who knows -- we may actually pump life back into the 2nd Amendment.
 
I have the right to vote. The constitution mentions it. But I can't just walk into a booth and pull levers.
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Not at all the same issue ... the only reason for having register to vote is to prevent a citizen from voting multiple times :rolleyes:

Now when are you going to get your RTS (Right To Speak) permit, and your GTC (Go To Church) permit, etc ....... :p :D
 
Now when are you going to get your RTS (Right To Speak) permit, and your GTC (Go To Church) permit, etc .....
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Newspapers, radio and television stations must all be licensed by the government, not only for business and tax purposes, but the feds also control the airwaves ... We - the listeners/watchers/subscribers also pay in one form or another to have the right to a free press exercised. Churches must be registered with the government (among other things, as non-profit entities) as well ...
Let's face it, all of our Constitutional rights are regulated by some form of government in one way or another, and we all pay fees to the government in one way or another ...
 
CO Open Carry with No Permit?

I'm glad that Colorado is now a 'Shall-Issue' state, part of a growing trend. In fact, as of now over 2/3rds of the U.S. population resides in states that are Shall-Issue.

If your friend feels so strongly about not getting his CCW permit, he can just go with Open Carry if he's willing to carry copies of the state's laws on it and is willing to repeatedly 'educate the officers' as the members of the Virginia Citizens Defense League had to do on the East Coast.
 
I'm one of the "old guys".
I carried for over 30 years in lovely New York City.
Certainly not a "shall issue" place.
Never got questioned or spotted.
I don't know what I would do now with the Subway searches going on.

No I don't need no stinking permit. All I had to do was keep my mouth shut.

Now I'm in Florida and I got the CCW.
I'm a vet it was easy as can be.

AFS
 
But what's the deal with Denver now though - do they still believe they can 'opt out' of the Colo. Const. and laws? I guess if there's shall-issue, then you can CCW in Denver. But can one legally open carry in Denver? And if it is legal, can you do so without being harassed by cops?
 
A business associate I met about a year ago was talking about guns. Eventually, the discussion got around to concealed carry, and the fact that I had a license (have had since 1980). I asked if he had one, and he said he didn't believe in them. "Uh oh," I thought to myself, "this guy must be some kind of antigun liberal." Then, after continuing the conversation a little more, I realized that he meant he didn't believe he needed one to carry (even though the law requires it), and didn't want to cooperate with a system that he thought was in violation of his rights. Apparently, he carries quite often without a license. Well, to each his own. Since then, I've met someone else who carries concealed without a license, and for similar reasons (or, so he says). I admire the principle, but since it is not very difficult in Florida for me to carry within the law, that's what I choose do. Don't mind jumping through a few hoops, so long as it doesn't get ridiculous.
 
I agree with him, but with an eye on the consequences. Here in CA, it's a misdemeanor if the handgun is 'registered' to you, otherwise it's a felony.
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I've heard the second offense is a felony even if it's your gun.
 
I've heard the second offense is a felony even if it's your gun.
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Yes, it is also my understanding that the second time that you are caught with a concealed (registered) gun, it is a felony.

Sawdust
 
Because laws totally stop felons dead in their tracks *puts gun back in safe and puts up a "no crime allowed" sign isntead*.

It is just a feelgood thing. Saying that murderers cant have guns is like saying that they cant murder. Duh. They obviously arent taking the wishes of society into account when planning their actions.

If people are released into society, they should get all their rights back. If this is too soon, then dont release them so soon! The problem is the sentencing, not the rights that prisoners might abuse as freed citizens. We didnt murder anyone. Dont punish the citizenry, punish the people who break the laws. If the punishment isnt long enough or harsh enough, then make it longer or harsher. This isnt rocket science.
 
First. How ya doing Tropical!!! :D

Second, I have always said that the CCW is nothing more than voluntary gun registration. The benevolent big brother might not know exactly WHAT you got, but if you have a CCW, then they know you got something!! That becomes useful, if and when, .gov decides to round up all the guns and people who know how to use them!! I also believe that the government's real definition of terrorist is anybody with a gun!! Hey, don't laugh!! That's how it is in England and Australia!!!!
 
Friends,

I don't like getting government permission to exercise a right. Here in Georgia, you have to have a carry permit for open carry. Before CCW, you could open carry without permission.

But I've been there and done that. I've got the T shirt.

I was arrested for carrying a concealed weapon in August, 1998. 1st offense in Georgia is a misdemeanor. Even so, I'm a registered nurse. I had no idea how the State Board of Nursing would view renewing my license with a weapons violation on my record. So I hired the very best criminal law firm in Augusta, Georgia. Expensive. Plea bargained the prosecution dropping the carry charge in exchange for a guilty plea on the traffic charges. Paid a whopping fine. Paid a whopping lawyer fee. Retained my nursing license. I went from the court to the probate judge in my home county and picked up my carry license. He had been holding it for me while waiting to see if the charges would be dropped. Second offense in Georgia is a felony. Total about $4K.

Hey, I just wouldn't ever let violent criminals out on the street again. I will make a prediction for all the staunch law and order fellows here who asks questions such as,"Would you want him living next to you? Especially if he's a sex offender?" My answer friend is that I don't want him living next to you...I want him to be killed by the girl he tried to rape. With the handgun that I trained her to use.

But my prediction is this: Just wait, the government will come up with a felony for you sooner or later. Then they'll take your firearms away for life. The felony bar to firearms ownership is a threat to law abiding gun owners. Just check out felony growth over the past fifty years.

Open carry without a license was legal for most of my life in Georgia. The 2nd offense of this once legal activity is now a felony and is aimed directly at you and your ownership of firearms. Happy?
 
CCW is nothing more than voluntary gun registration. The benevolent big brother might not know exactly WHAT you got, but if you have a CCW, then they know you got something!! That becomes useful, if and when, .gov decides to round up all the guns and people who know how to use them!!
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Yeah, like all those 4473s we've all filled out over the years aren't going to be used against us, and the server logs here and on a dozen other gun forums won't be used against us, like your credit card records (remember that one time you bought a box of .22lr with your credit card?) won't be used against us.

If you NEVER bought a gun through an FFL.
If you NEVER bought ammo and/or reloading supplies with anything but cash.
If you NEVER subscribed to a gun rag.
If you NEVER joined the NRA/GOA/JPFO or a local gun club.
If you NEVER posted on a gun related internet forum.

THEN you might have a point that getting a CCW might put you on the gun grabbing JBTs radar :p


To be honest, once America gets to the full on gun confiscation stage, I don't care if I die soon after because it won't be a free country again within my lifetime (if ever).
 
I find some interesting ideas earlier on this thread.

One side thinks felons should not own guns since they don't want violent felons owning guns. They think felony laws should be realistic and misdemeaners should not be turned into felonies. They are focused on serious felons, not all the minor crap.

The other sides thinks laws should be changed so released felons are given back their full rights after serving their time and minor felonies would not prevent gun ownership. They also mention violent felons shouldn't be released anyway, but they are focused on minor felonies.

Both sides have good points and actually agree in many ways, but both sides need the laws changed. The end result appears to be the same thing.


On the topic, live by your 2nd Amendment principles all you want, but just be prepared to accept the legal consequences if you get caught.

On an earlier post, I agree with the NRA representatives sentiment. You have to take what gun law improvements you can get NOW. If you wait around for perfection, you will be long dead before it happens. You may not like it, but that is reality. There are still too many people out there who have a look of horror on their faces when pure 2nd Amendment ideas are expressed to them. Give licensed CCL's a chance to sink in and allow those scared people to get more confortable with it and we can improve it. We can't lose sight of our end goals, but we have to understand that we can't have everything we want right now.
 
BeerSlurpy Said: If people are released into society, they should get all their rights back. If this is too soon, then dont release them so soon! The problem is the sentencing, not the rights that prisoners might abuse as freed citizens. We didnt murder anyone. Dont punish the citizenry, punish the people who break the laws. If the punishment isnt long enough or harsh enough, then make it longer or harsher. This isnt rocket science.
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That sums up my view pretty well too.
 
Give licensed CCL's a chance to sink in and allow those scared people to get more confortable with it and we can improve it.
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So many gun fearing people argue about the issue as if CCW isnt widespread. They are afraid of people carrying guns around. Then when you remind them that Florida has had CCW since the 80s and many of the people they deal with ever day are armed and theyre like whoa. Its very hard to stay afraid of guns when you realize they are all around you and not causing any harm. CCW is what makes this possible.

I think a lot of antis got completely shocked in the late 90s when people started trotting out the CCW statistics and the antis had nothign with which to rebut them. Comprehensive surveys like Lott's were never supposed have been possible because they would require the legal arming of a broad swath of the populace, something which many beleived to be impossible in the face of widespread fear of guns.

I dont worry about CCW causing the government to come for my guns. The government already knows something like 50 percent of the homes have a gun in them. They wouldnt have to wait long to start finding firearms once they declared a confiscation. I beleive many might come out of their homes bearing them and even demonstrating their use. The more likely scenario is that both sides will continue to try and slowly push American society in one direction or the other. All indications are that people are becoming more and more gun-tolerant and even gun-enjoying. I am working on some of my coworkers, getting them interested in going shooting, etc.

Also, since 9/11 and the other terrorist acts, people seem less inclined to base their political views on the acts of crazy people, so the old massacre newsreels dont really have the same lightning bolt effect they used to.
 
Sometimes good things come from unexpected directions. In Virginia, for example, it is illegal to carry concealed in an establishment with an on-premises liquor license. That means you can't carry concealed in most restaurants. And attempts to correct this resulted in hysteric claims that people wanted to "carry guns in bars."

However, Virginia also has an open carry law -- which doesn't mention liquor licenses. So Virginians got to taking off the cover garment and openly carrying in restaurants.

The result was a "de-sensitizing" of the public. People soon saw how many were carrying, and how it was no big thing.
 
I agree with him in principle.

If he's got the time and money to make an effective fight against it, more power to him!

This is why the government hates the rich. People living paycheck to paycheck making $66k/yr on salary with 2 new cars just can't *afford* any civil disobediance!
 
Well, in MT persons with a CCW permit must report to the local sheriff(s) whenever they move - just like registered sex offenders.
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The same is true in NY, but not only do you have to report every move you make, and promptly, but even every time you change your job you have to report immediately to the police, and pay to fill out a modification to the records. I remember when I first realized this back in the early 1980s, I couldn't believe that just because I had a CCL I was being treated like some kind of dangerous criminal that the police needed to keep tight tabs on. They take this VERY seriously, and threaten you with legal troubles if you are slow to do it. So glad I moved out of that God forsaken place and to a state that recognizes that I'm not a potential threat to law and order because I want to carry a weapon for self defense.
 
TRH, I don't know about other states, but Texas has ALWAYS wanted you to update your driver's license whenever you move to a different address. Just guessing, but I'd bet most other states are the same.

Got little or nothing to do with guns, particularly; other than the same view holds for any sort of official state or federal license. Probably holds for a business license for a small retail store; move, and update.

Art
 
Texas has ALWAYS wanted you to update your driver's license whenever you move to a different address. Just guessing, but I'd bet most other states are the same.
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Here in Colorado the would like you to update your drivers' license whenever you move, but as long as you write the new address on the back you're okay :D

As long as your insurance is up to date that's all they really seem to care about.
 
TRH, I don't know about other states, but Texas has ALWAYS wanted you to update your driver's license whenever you move to a different address.
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My MT DL address is my PO Box ;)

(which is also the address we use with all the :cuss: relatives that we don't want to find us)

When paying with a check at a store, I don't like displaying my home address, so it is not on either my checks or DL.
 
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