I just want to complain about Gun Stores, maybe I'll feel better

[romma]

I have to travel

at least 60 miles for a decent gun shop... But once I do, the deals are way better than at this end of the state, and the selection is better as well. As far as I can tell, most everything is priced under MSRP...

 

[loisfromcenterfire]

Food for thought

OK guys, what's fair? What's a fair percentage over cost? The internet and superstores have changed the way we, as consumers, are shopping. We complain that superstores are driving out small business, but we're not willing to pay the price it costs to support small business.

Let's look at some of the expenses:

Rent
Insurance
Power
Heat/Cool
Phone Service
Paper supplies
Advertising
FFL License
Payroll
Merchant account
and and and...


Do you really think that 20 or 30% over cost is going to keep the dealer in business?

Just food for thought. I'm not trying to start some chaos.

I've worked all my life and I understand the value of a dollar and I'll be the first to admit I shop at Walmart.

 

[rbernie]

I understand retail passably well and I understand the need for 37% to 42% overall margins in order for a business to stay marginally afloat. What I think is being discussed is the fact that the MSRP of an item IS SUPPOSED TO GIVE THE DEALER THAT MARGIN and more, presuming that they've worked out their wholesaler relationships appropriately.

What chaps my butt is when, to quote TXSigMan:

Do they really expect to sell S&W revolvers priced $150 or more ABOVE the MSRP on Smiths' web site?

Do they really expect to sell used shotguns for MORE than new ones by telling me "They dont make them as good anymore" even though its exactly the same thing?

Few of us will begrudge a dealer making an honest living, especially when the parallels between the dealer's livlihood and our own is drawn. But I see no reason to do business with anyone who will go out of their way to rape my wallet.

The desire to keep local brick-n-mortar stores in business has been discussed at length on this forum and others. TXSigMan was fuming at the thought that the locals were making it hard for him to do that by virtue of their outlandish actions. As much as we WANT to keep the little guys in business, they can't make it too hard for us or folks WILL eventually start voting with their feet and buying more and more stuff online.

 

[Phil DeGraves]

The dealers around here have mostly good prices, usually selling BELOW MSRP. The vast majority of stuff I have bought online hasd been junk. They get rid of the stuff that doesn't work because you cannot examine the piece, and they figure (correctly) with the cost of sending, it is cost prohibitive to send it back instead of just getting a smith to fix it.

 

[Manedwolf]

The markup that most amuses me is the milsurp insane markups.

$69 Mosins, still with the Sarco tag, marked up to $198
Yugo SKSs for $250
$78 Nagant pistols for $178
CZ-52s that have been chewed on for $225

The "Add $100 to the online surplus price" seems to be the rule in many shops I've seen.

 

[High_Cap]

Not all gun stores are bad though. I work at one and our prices close to the big box stores sometimes better.

But one thing about this we have a lot of guys come in with a gun saving $4 over our price and want us to fix it because it is broken. I guess if it was me I'd pay the extra money to at least have some customer service. Plus once you start buying from us you start getting to know the employees which a few a gunsmiths and armor's for various manufacturs. Then when you do have a problem we will try to help you as much as we can. We also have a range so when you buy a gun you get a pass to shoot for free.

I guess were I'm at Gander Mountain is terrible for service. Tried to buy a case of shotgun shells a the punk kid wouldn't let me because he was to busy stocking the shells to go into the back and grab a case for me. I had well over $200 worth of stuff in my cart and I guess I kinda wigged out and left the stuff for him in the aisle.

Or if we do put Night sights on the gun that you bought from us we are much more likely to help you adjust them and get them sighted in.

Ahh I feel better too.

 

[AJ Dual]

I've often wondered myself about the other poster's idea for a "stockless" gun-store where they order what you want as you want it, with a low flat markup. Perhaps even having internet terminals to allow people to browse for what they want, then compare the shipped, insured, and FFL'ed internet price to yours from your distributors.

As much as I like the concept, it just won't work. To be an operating business, the requirments for zoning for the business itself, and the ATF for the FFL to prove you're not a "kitchen table" hobbyist 01 FFL are tough.

The only way I could see doing it would be to take an existing store with inventory, take over the business, get the FFL, then "devolve" the business into the "internet store" mode over time, and perhaps they'll let you get away with it.

It would still be a struggle though, if people walked into an empty store without the warm fuzzies a ton o guns on the wall gives, they'll walk out again. You'd almost have to form a "buyer's club" and do tons of marketing to sell people on a store devoted primarily to the "order it" concept.

Also, there are two types of gun customers.


Type #1: They are the one time "deer season", "nightstand gun", "just got my ccw", or impulse buy guys who may not come back again for years, if ever. As long as the gun they want costs less or exactly what's burning a hole in thier wallet, they'll pay it.

Then there's type #2: People like us on the gun boards who collect, or have dozens of firearms and want more, or are continualy buying and selling new ones as thier wishes change. They also read and research obsessively.

And if customer type #1 is the majority of the business as I suspect, the one-gun impulse customer, it only makes economic sense to charge what they'll pay.

I only get "offended" when a store refuses to recognize me as type 2 customer, who knows of alternate sources like the few remaining kitchen table FFL's, on-line, and Shotgun News pricing etc.

So I don't get tweaked when I see price tags at or over MSRP, but when I politely tell the clerk who has a gun marked at $600, "Gun X is $400 wholesale, FFL X-fer is $50, and $25 for shipping, so how about $500 for a little more profit in it for you?" and I get a rude response, then I get angry.

So far, the "overpriced" but polite gun store in my area will play the "Wholesale +" game with me often enough, and still be polite when they won't, so I'm happy.

 

[GEM]

In San Antonio - Durys is a good shop. I've bought a couple there for reasonable prices.

Nagels - great knife collection but prices are not their strong points and some can be quite cranky in attitude. Some guys are nice - probably didn't get the message.

However, the monthly Saxet shows are the best for prices on standard Glocks or SW revolvers and the like.

Some folks are just butts behind the counter when you started dealing with specialized stuff. Try the coin store - some are the nicest guys and some are jackholes. And let me tell you about arguing about cheese in the gourmet store in Oregon.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Do you really think that 20 or 30% over cost is going to keep the dealer in business?

Do you really think that charging 20 to 30% OVER MSRP is necessary to keep a dealer in business?

If you can't run a business selling whatever it is using the MSRP, which is an already inflated price, maybe it's your business practices that need some changing, not your price tags.

On my outing Saturday at 3 Ft Worth area gunshops I consistently saw things marked anywhere from 10 to 30 percent OVER MSRP. That's just ridiculous.

 

[CSA 357]

I try to deal with a gun shop a few times, some of them you just cant! there is one here in cullman al. that i have marked off my list , to never darken his door again, a real a$$ hole , one of the know it all kind , these will weed there self out im not the only one in this area that feals this way , and the list gets longer every day, but i can drive the other direction and theres a gun shop i have no trouble dealing with, i buy alot of guns there and the more i buy the better he treats me, as a matter of fact i think ill ride over and see him now! *csa*

 

[dracphelan]

Or if we do put Night sights on the gun that you bought from us we are much more likely to help you adjust them and get them sighted in.

And, that's the kind of service I expect. I also say some people expect to much. Recently, while I was at my favorite gunstore, I saw an example of expecting to much. A guy brought in his gun and $300 scope that he had purchased elsewhere. He bought a $15 set of rings and asked them to mount and boresight the scope for him. They did this and charged him $10 or $15 for the service. He hit the roof. What did he expect when he had spent the majority of his money elsewhere. Besides, they charged less than half of what they charge is someone just brings a rifle in to be boresighted.

 

[RobW]

The market will take care of such "enterprises".

Somehow, a lot of so-called "gun-stores" have never heard of "Shotgun News" and the Internet. They may think about it when their business went downhill.

Regularly, retailers have to calculate a 100 to 120% markup to cover anything from inventory, theft, insurance, employee wages, and everything your wife does at home... Gun-stores have more expenses than a grocery-store, thanks to the Klintonians. Buuut, over MSRP? That's Lemmingism.

Who said that the gun-grabbers are not successful?

 

[Gord]

I would imagine that quite a few shops stay in business because a lot of the old codgers (pardon...) don't know a thing about computers or the internet. They've probably heard that you can buy guns online, but they don't know how. So, they continue to patronize their local shop(s), even if prices are quite a bit higher, simply because they have no alternative.

As my generation matures and becomes the buying force, I think we'll start seeing a lot of these shops go out of business as people do the majority of their purchasing online. In a lot of markets, the online and brick-and-mortar retail prices of products are similar after shipping; this isn't true, however, with guns.

I'm happy to pay somewhat more for local service and to foster a sense of goodwill and camaraderie with local shops, but there's a line between "reasonable" and "purposeful rape" - and all my loal shops are so far over that line it's not even funny. $275 Bulgie Maks? Check! $560 CZ-75Bs? Check!

Gunshops need to get competitive, lose the attitude, or perish. I'm not gonna miss them if they do. If you really have to charge MSRP or more to break even on your monthly rent, you need to rethink your business strategy and get some better wholesalers.

 

[TexasRifleman]

lose the attitude

That seemed to be the biggest thing I ran into.

I tried to nicely tell one guy that i could get the same gun for a couple hundred less and could he move at all on the price, only to be told anything ranging from "the one you will get will be stolen" to "it won't have a warranty".

Rather than move one dollar off his price tag (a paper tag which by the way had an inch of dust on it, it's been sitting there that long) he let me walk out, after practically begging him to take my money.

They seem to be truly shocked that someone would NOT pay that, and really don't believe even now that there are alternatives.

 

[Bobhwry]

Never buy a gun without doing your research!! The internet auctions are a great resource for determining fair pricing. Look at the closed auctions to see what they really sell for.Dealer's that price at full retail or MSRP are destined to fail!

 

[t49si83]

Like I said, we need to double or triple the number of FFLs.

High prices are being discussed a lot so it needs to be mentioned what the CAUSES are. I special order a lot of guns because I like guns that government really HATES (i.e. the non "sporting purpose" stuff, because most of the guns in a store are "sporting purpose"). Gun stores, even large ones tend to stock either expensive stuff, or brands everyone's heard of instead of a variety of lesser known or less expensive brands (they also like to call things they DON'T carry "junk").

SHIPPING has just gotten ugly because of bush's oil cartel buddies tripling gas prices (by shutting down refineries for decades). THAT and the fact that we're forced to use certain carriers.

Just general inflation (which I call war related "bush-flation") has taken a toll on everything, ESPECIALLY if you're smaller than Wal Mart. Businesses either have to raise prices or take it on the chin. They USED to have some leeway to lower prices sometimes, but if small businesses do that NOW, they'll get killed and lose money.

 

[Gord]

High prices are being discussed a lot so it needs to be mentioned what the CAUSES are.

The causes are either incompetent business management or simple jackassery. If someone is trying to sell me a firearm for MSRP + 10%, they either have a terrible relationship with a terrible wholesaler and an ineffective business plan (not my problem) or they're willingly trying to screw me, plain and simple. I do not consider the latter to be my friends, ardent supporters of the 2nd though they may be, and while I don't wish any particular hardship on the former, I am not going to pay for someone else's incompetence when I can go home and have my firearm delivered for $100 less in five minutes from an online seller.

Seems a lot of gunshops these days are in the business of making as much money as they possibly can from clueless buyers purchasing things at firm (and firmly outrageous) prices, instead of being willing to negotiate with people who actually know their stuff.

Fine with me - that shop gets Joe Bob buying a new dehr rahfle every couple of years along with a few boxes of ammo, and Delilah the single mom buying a .25 to keep in the sock drawer for 30 years; some other shop gets my business, which I'd wager is worth considerably more in both volume and dollars.

 

[gezzer]

And just what do you think the discount from MSRP is? Note it is also Suggested retail not chiseled in stone.

Make 30% markup on a new gun? I doubt it to many internet buyers who leave out the delivery costs, overhead such as building cost, tax on property, lights, help, and licenses. While you buy the gun there and then buy all your ammo at Wally-World. I might add then complain about them not going to sell guns anymore.

I hate new gun sales as I like to eat after a day’s work and selling them at 10% or so mark-up myself and family would starve.

As for buying it online guess what you still got delivery cost AND Transfer fee, saved a bunch taking a chance from some folks on line and when it breaks or don't work, deal with it yourself.

You want shotgun news prices get your own FFL or C&R. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

 

[oswulf]

I feel your pain, especially as a retail FFL. Do you know what I have to pay wholesale and how little I make if I sell at suggested retail? Maybe 25% markup. That low a markup is the slow kiss of death for a small retail business. My only chance is to hope to sell enough little stuff and used guns to keep me in business because if all I had to rely on was selling new guns I'd go under in a week.

Wanna really bitch and moan, do it to the manufacturers and wholesalers who force guys like me to try and squeeze a little extra out of a sale to pay the bills.

Example: Remington 700 SPS in .243 costs me $474.94 wholesale, plus shipping. Suggested retail is $625.00, less than $150.00 profit. Not bad until you cruise gunbroker and find that same rifle for sale for $429.95 brand new, about $45.00 less than what my own wholesalers will sell it to me for. Now realistically I can probably actually get maybe $595.00 out of this rifle in my shop, if it hangs out on the shelf too long more likely I'll have to mark it down to $550.00, and you could still get it cheaper at Bi-Mart or Sportsman's warehouse. Same goes for ammo, maybe 25% markup and I'm still priced higher than the big box stores. If it weren't for used guns and misc accessories I'd drown in my own tears. As it is I drive an old beater suburban that needs work I can't afford right now, the kids are getting their school clothes a couple pieces at a time when we can afford it, the mortgage breaks my back..................

I love running a small town gunstore, being my own boss etc. and I'll keep doing it until the market finishes me off completely, fighting every step of the way. And I understand your frustration at what I have to try to charge just to stay in business when we both know you could get a better deal online, but those guys won't boresight it for you, or recommend a good load, or point you to a good place to bag that big buck, or just bullsh*t with you about the weather or politics like I will.

You'll miss me when I'm gone.

Oswulf

 

[TexasRifleman]

You'll miss me when I'm gone.

And I'm doing my best to avoid that.

So in your example, your wholesaler sells you this Remington for $474.94 but I can get it online for $429.95.

Why don't you buy from the same guy that has it online then sell it to me for below MSRP and I'm likely going to be happy.

Why are your wholesalers making so much? Why can't you cut them out of the loop? What benefit do they provide?

Genuinely curious, not trying to be a smart a**.

 

[oswulf]

Why don't you buy from the same guy that has it online then sell it to me for below MSRP and I'm likely going to be happy.

I do, fairly often, but dealing with a wholesaler gives me and you advantages that dealing with some nameless online seller doesn't. I buy that Remington from a wholesaler and it sits on my shelf for six months, customer buys it andit turns out to be defective from the factory. My wholesaler is going to stand behind that gun, Joe from Gunbroker has already changed his user name four times, try to get an exchange. Now to keep you happy and coming back to my store I'm going to order a replacement from my wholesaler and give it to you since I guarantee everything I sell. I'll have a gunsmith fix the P.O.S. I got from gunbroker, sell it as a used gun for less than what I have in it and lose a fair bit of money on the whole deal. And I'll do it with a smile just to keep you coming back to my store.

My wholesalers will charge me actual shipping costs or none at all depending on how much I buy or how I pay, Joe from Gunbroker is going to make a few bucks on shipping, guaranteed.

I buy mostly from wholesalers because they stand behind their product, online auctions maybe give you 3 days to inspect and return it, maybe. Which is fine for you if you're buying the gun for yourself, but not for me looking to stock my shelves. I inspect every gun I get in but short of shooting it not all problems are going to be discovered, and it doesn't get shot until you buy it and take it out to shoot it yourself.

I don't try to sell for more than MSRP, in fact I usually sell for less if I want to sell at all, and I do. I can maybe get away with 25% above my cost on a new gun and that's from any wholesaler you can name, I've got about 10 that I use and shop for the best price. Chances are though with a bit of research you can find a better deal online or at one of the big box stores.

Is it any wonder that many small retailers are grumpy, or offended when you try to lowball them not knowing what their true cost for a certain item is? My true cost for that rifle I paid $474.95 for is actually closer to $525.00 when you figure overhead. When I have to mark it down to $550.00 to move it, how do I feed my kids? Good thing the old lady has a decent job.

Oswulf

 

[brolin_1911a1]

Looking at the posts on this topic makes me realize just how lucky I am to be living in the locale I am. In this town of 10,000 people we have eight or so pawn shop/gun dealers who stock a wide variety of weaponry. And they're prices are cut-throat competitive. Most will order anything one wishes for cost + shipping + $25 or $30.

It's a far, far cry from the gun shops I had to put up with when I lived in Nebraska ten years ago. There, the stocking dealers seemed to feel that their FFL and business license entitled them to whatever price they felt like demanding and, as others have said, way too often that price was MSRP plus markup. In one case, prior to the 1986 Gun Owners Protection Act, a friend went to one such dealer to order about $500 worth of varmint ammo that the dealer didn't normally stock. He offered to pay in advance for cost+shipping+15% profit for the dealer. "Nope," he was told. "Our standard markup is 50%. It's that or nothing." My buddy went to a "kitchen table" dealer who ordered the desired items for cost with no markup as a favor in order to encourage future business. The stocking dealer in this story who was unwilling to take a 15% profit with no risk involved has since gone out of business but there are others just as arrogant out there.

Again, I'm very, very happy that I now live in a place with an abundance of dealers who are friendly, knowledgeable, fair, and willing to order what you want if you don't have it in stock. Yeah, I buy the bulk ammo at Wal-mart. But I also make a point of buying a box every so often from my local gun dealers just to keep them in business even though it does cost a bit more. I also buy as many of my gun cleaning supplies from those dealers -- the price isn't that much higher than Wal-mart's and I know these guys aren't going to suddenly become politically correct and leave me with no other options so long as I (and others) buy stuff from them.

 

[Famine]

I have a totally different experience from my local gun store. Every time I go in there, there is one guy who just looks pissed that I want to spend money. I've never been rude, I've never assumed too much, and I've always acted in a mature and educated manor. But every time, and I do mean every time, the owner plays it up like a hard a@@. He acts like it is a chore to open the case and let me hold a gun. When I buy ammo, he acts as though I'm asking him to make it on the spot. Even after I dropped a grand in his store, at prices that were too high, he still acted like I was invading his space.

Now I could understand if I was a young punk who dressed in a certain manner, or if I pretended to know more than I did, or if I was absolutely clueless. But none of this is the case. What's this guy's deal?

 

[rbernie]

A certain percentage of the world's population are natural born lemon-suckin' pissants. They're everywhere.

No reason why the gunny community would be immune from that.

 

[History Prof]

Last one I bought locally was about $20 under MSRP. I could have gotten it online for $70 less than the local guy (but add in shipping and the local guy's transfer fee, which is even reasonable and my savings is only about $40). I'd prefer to spend the additional $40 to keep him in business. I'd probably have bought from him even AT MSRP. But over MSRP? No way! I know they need to make a profit to stay in business, but they need to manage their business to keep themselves open. My local shops do that quite well, and local prices here are reasonable.

When I used to live in Phoenix, I had a list of placed to avoid and places to shop. When I go back, I check them out, and most of the places I avoided are GONE. The ones where I shopped are still there. Go figure.