1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
So you can be more versa-tile? Like learnin' to drive a stick-shift car when yours has a slushbox transmission.
If the 1911 and Glock 21 were both made in the year 1911
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So you can be more versa-tile? Like learnin' to drive a stick-shift car when yours has a slushbox transmission.
allaroundhunter
Member
Plans are great and all.... Until you realize that the bad guys don't follow your plans. What if you ever have to use a firearm (that isn't yours) that does have a manual safety? It helps to be knowledgeable and fairly proficient at disengaging a safety, even if it isn't on a gun that you typically carry. It actually is a good idea to have a basic to very good understanding of the manual of arms of many modern pistols.
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waterhouse
Member
My duty belt weighs about 23 pounds. While I would
Love to shed weight, I doubt the 10 ounce difference between a steel gun and a plastic gun makes a huge difference in my energy level at the end of a
Shift and I doubt it is the largest factor that agencies choose polymers.
allaroundhunter
Member
What the heck is on your duty belt to make it weigh 23 lbs?
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I learned stick when I got one, I'll train on a 1911 if it looks like I'll actually ever use it.
Why, when I carry the same gun every day, would I have to use someone else's handgun? If I do, I can use the safety on it, I'm just not very quick. Also, there are different types of safeties. From what I understand, the 1911 goes down, Beretta's goes up, the FiveseveN has it in a place where no thumb should ever go. I know how they work, but my initial reaction to grabbing a pistol isn't to turn off the safety.
I'm going to use the oft-quoted "fear the man with only one gun", if I keep the same MOA, I shouldn't get confused.
Sounds great--until one has to defend himself with a different fierarm.
Consider the possibilities--your firearm fails, or you are separated from it, or you don't happen to have it....
There was a scenario on one of the self defense programs showing how to figure out what do do--I think the skit involved a disabled LEO in an active shooter situation.
Exactly. There are three things upon which one should not place excessive reliance:
- I need only to know how to handle my gun
- No one else wii ever pick up my gun
- I'll keep my finger off the trigger until I'm going to shoot
The first has to do with more than safeties; SA vs strIker vs DA/SA variations can all make a difference when the going gets serious.
Yes, it is.
But the original question had to do with the selection of a cavalry weapon, and anyone who knows anything about handguns and horses surely knows the answer,
Brockak47
Member
I think the firearm chosen still would be a 1911, my reasoning is you can't fate. Plus I mean C'mon the 1911 is sooo purrrdy.
If my firearm fails I'm drawing my backup...which has the same MOA (it's just smaller). I consider the situation where I do not have a working firearm and someone else has a firearm that I will have access to is a sufficiently rare occurance that I'm not going to train for it. Like I said, I'm not going to be stumped by a 1911 or a Beretta, I just won't be as quick with it.
There's also a difference between an understanding of the MOA and muscle memory for the MOA. I have the understanding, I just might forget a step before being able to fire. What I don't have is the muscle memory for it.
Like I said, I know how to handle a 1911. Doesn't mean I'm practiced on it. If I were to practice on a 1911 enough to get to the point where I can draw and use it without thinking, where does that get me? How do I get that level of practice with the drawstroke on a 1911 without having my own? (places I've gone to rent you can use the gun, but they don't offer holsters for you to practice drawing with). That sounds like a whole lot of time and money spent on training that really would only come into play in the extremely rare situation mentioned above.
I'm not really sure how this is relevant to the discussion of 1911 vs. Glock.
This seems to be a manual safety vs. passive safety argument, one which I disagree with. If the belief is that someone who trains enough on a 1911 can use muscle memory to deactivate the safety on draw, why does the same logic not apply to keeping the finger off the trigger? Not firing when you want it to can be just as dangerous as firing when you don't.
There's also a difference between an understanding of the MOA and muscle memory for the MOA. I have the understanding, I just might forget a step before being able to fire. What I don't have is the muscle memory for it.
Like I said, I know how to handle a 1911. Doesn't mean I'm practiced on it. If I were to practice on a 1911 enough to get to the point where I can draw and use it without thinking, where does that get me? How do I get that level of practice with the drawstroke on a 1911 without having my own? (places I've gone to rent you can use the gun, but they don't offer holsters for you to practice drawing with). That sounds like a whole lot of time and money spent on training that really would only come into play in the extremely rare situation mentioned above.
I'm not really sure how this is relevant to the discussion of 1911 vs. Glock.
This seems to be a manual safety vs. passive safety argument, one which I disagree with. If the belief is that someone who trains enough on a 1911 can use muscle memory to deactivate the safety on draw, why does the same logic not apply to keeping the finger off the trigger? Not firing when you want it to can be just as dangerous as firing when you don't.
allaroundhunter
Member
Skribs, keeping your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire is not connected in any way to what gun is in your hand. If you have drawn your weapon and it has a manual safety, it should be disengaged as you clear the holster. If you do not have a manual safety, then there is not one to worry about. In both situations, the operator's finger is now the only thing keeping the gun from discharging. That means that regardless of what gun is in your hand, keep your finger off the trigger.
The chances of you having an AD/ND from having your finger on the trigger when it shouldn't be are too high to risk, especially with adrenaline flowing.
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The chances of you having an AD/ND from having your finger on the trigger when it shouldn't be are too high to risk, especially with adrenaline flowing.
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I realize that. But some people argue that you need a manual safety because, even though you train for keeping your finger off the trigger, in a situation where you're stressed you might forget that training.
The argument I was making is that if you forget that training, you would also forget to swipe the safety. I guess you're right, though. Safety off, the same training should apply - trigger finger in the trigger guard only when ready to shoot.
The G21 would not have been adopted by the US military. You'd think even the most rabid fanboy would realize that, since they don't use it now.
The nice thing about knowing how to drive a stick is, there's no affect on your ability to drive an auto equiped car.
The nice thing about knowing how to drive a stick is, there's no affect on your ability to drive an auto equiped car.
76shuvlinoff
Member
As far as running a different sidearm. In the defensive handgun course I took we had a drill where we fired a couple from our own pistol as we approached a table of 5 different sidearms with various stoppages like stovepipes in place and/or dummy rounds sprinkled though their mags. We had to clear the stoppages and send rounds downrange with all of them as the clock was running.
I think it was time well spent ..... and I vote 1911.
I think it was time well spent ..... and I vote 1911.
Safety.
I was referring to the risk of an inadvertent discharge, but there is another aspect: experience has shown that safeties can help when weapons fall into the wrong hands
Already discussed. See Post 155.
It's not a matter of "possibly forgetting". It's a matter of subconscious behavior denied by the actor.
I no longer ride a horse, but I will neither own nor carry a semi-auto without a positive safety or two.
The Austrian military disagrees. The Croation army selected a different concept. Fine. It's a simple matter of risk management.
That doesn't address the other half of my issue. How is it that someone can be so well trained to flip off the safety on a 1911, but will bo so inept in basic gun safety that they can't remember to keep their finger out of the trigger guard? On the draw, my finger is outside the trigger guard, and I have no reason to move it in until I shoot. It's part of my draw stroke to put my finger in a safe position. So why is it so easy to turn off the safety, but hard to keep the finger off the trigger?
I only let people handle my guns at the range, where they are given a safety briefing and only point it downrange. The only people who would know where to grab my gun should I be unable to use it are capable of using it safely - they have the same model. Or they'd just use theirs.
Only time someone is going to get my gun is if they take it out of my hands (if I had a 1911, safety would be off at that point) or if they took it from my safe (which would give them ample time to figure out the MOA).
That's the "plan", but tests have shown that trained persons sometimes do otherwise, even though they are not aware of it.
One can only speculate. I do not know how one would design an experiment to determine the reason.
Why is it important?
How many inadvertent shootings by children and others, and how many deliberate shooters by wrong-doers, are done by persons who had been knowingly and willfully permitted to handle the guns?
Assumptions, upon which one should not place excessive reliance.
The Illinois State Police found that the safety devices in their Model 39 pistols provided an extra margin of safety that saved lives. Tests conducted by officers I know show that people who gain control of 1911-based back-up guns often cannot fire them.
X-Rap
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I would say switching the safety off is or can be very intuitive with the draw, the problem I see is turning it back on if a situation diffused itself. In that way I think it is much like what has been discussed about what I will call "phantom trigger finger" movements because it is done under stress and applied as a disconnected motion from the practiced draw.
Hunters will have probably noticed it when they check their rifles after a shot at a BG animal and find a fresh round chambered and safety off after their game is down. Hunting and defense both require some time to compose after the adrenilin rush and the rules are very important in this time since much has happened in a very compressed amount of time.
Hunters will have probably noticed it when they check their rifles after a shot at a BG animal and find a fresh round chambered and safety off after their game is down. Hunting and defense both require some time to compose after the adrenilin rush and the rules are very important in this time since much has happened in a very compressed amount of time.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Happens a lot. Under stress, people tend to keep doing whatever they were doing when the stress was introduced. That's why cars that flip onto their tops in high-speed accidents are often found with blown engines. The driver just keeps his foot nailed to the floor as the car rolls.
And...
That's why the thumb safety was added to the 1911 during the final tweaks. The Army Ordnance Board thinkers realized that a man might not remember to remove his finger from the trigger guard, but with a manual safety within reach and in close proximity of the natural thumb range of motion would be easier to train for. Thumb down...safety off. Thumb up...safety on.
I've manipulated that thumb safety so often for so long, that it's become automatic, and I never have a clear memory of sweeping it off or on. If I pick up a handgun...any handgun...my thumb just goes to the thumb safety position...or where it would be if there isn't one.
Same thing when I pick up a guitar. I play the Merle Travis/Chet Atkins fingerstyle with a muted thumb-picked 5-4-6-4 alternating bass. My hand rests on the bridge and my thumb finds the 5-string as soon as it's across my knee. I don't have to think about it or remember it.
HorseSoldier
Member
Unless you're in CAG (the artist formerly known as Delta Force), who've been using Glocks for years now. Or are in one of the white side SOF units that managed to scrounge up Glocks for downrange use (admittedly this phenomenon is as much about Beretta hate/dissatisfaction as it is about Glock enthusiasm in many cases, and is the same engine driving units pulling 1911s out of storage and rebuilding them, and the use of other non-standard pistols).
I would rate Glock as a pretty strong contender for the next US service pistol contract, if we ever get around to doing one of those. Glock was willing to play ball on the issue of US production and such for the now defunct Joint Combat Pistol program a few years back. It's a design that has served effectively with US law enforcement across a wide range/quality of firearms training programs among different departments. It's inexpensive. It may be inelegant, but our next service pistol will either be a Glock or be another polymer framed design marketed to fight Glock for market share.
HorseSoldier
Member
Within the last decade they've issued most major flavors of the Glock except for the big frame 45 and 10mm's, with the G17/19 combo being replaced by the G22/23 combo (with which they reportedly had some problems, and switched back to the 9mm's).
45_auto
Member
We sometimes have SEALs from the local unit show up to shoot our pistol matches. They're using Glock 21's.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Apparently, they did okay...or the complaints would have prompted the Army to take action, the way they did when they modified the firing pin stop after complaints of the difficulty in hand-cycling the pistol with the hammer down.
And the change to the arched mainspring housing because the troops had a tendency to shoot low under stress.
And the change to the short trigger after complaints that the long was was too hard to reach.
If things like that had been common, we'd have heard about it.
The way to train yourself to perform an action is to do it repetitively...to make the same move the same way every time...over and over. After a while, it becomes an auto response. No "remembering" needed.
As the pistol comes up on target, the safety goes off. As it comes back down to low/ready...it goes back on. Do it 200 times, and it's part of you.
X-Rap
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That comment was a little tongue in cheek but since the safety is most often originally attributed to the needs of the mounted rider I thought I'd throw it out there.
Back in those days most everyone was an accomplished rider by necessity if they rode at all but having spent some time on horseback myself and been in a few rodeos along the way I question my own presence of mind to flip on the safety, especially in the heat of battle. I just wonder how much or often it was deployed as designed or requested.
Back in those days most everyone was an accomplished rider by necessity if they rode at all but having spent some time on horseback myself and been in a few rodeos along the way I question my own presence of mind to flip on the safety, especially in the heat of battle. I just wonder how much or often it was deployed as designed or requested.
76shuvlinoff
Member
That is true, I had never ran a de-cocker until I had to borrow a SIG .40 to finish a course. Since I did not want to switch back I used it the next day through another 600 rounds.
By the end of the first 1/2 hour no one had to remind (yell) at me to de-cock before I moved to the next target. I'm a lefty so I was using my index finger and at the end of a day and a half of shooting I had raised a decent blister on my double duty trigger finger.
I decided I hated de-cockers right there.
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