If the 1911 and Glock 21 were both made in the year 1911

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Posted by TAKtical: You will not find a case to support your claims.
The only claim I have made is that a plaintiff would have little difficulty in finding an expert witness who would testify about the danger of light trigger pulls.

We have searched long and hard to find one case that supports this urban legend.
Have you read the transcript of every trial that has been conducted in every one of the courts of every one of the five thousand or so courts in this country?

The insistance of many police departments on long, heavy trigger pulls, and the modification of DA revolvers to eliminate SA capability before that, were done for a reason. Care to guess what it was?
 
The insistance of many police departments on long, heavy trigger pulls, and the modification of DA revolvers to eliminate SA capability before that, were done for a reason. Care to guess what it was?

Just so. Several years ago, I read an article by Mas Ayoob on that very subject. He strongly advised against carrying guns with modified triggers for that very reason. To wit: "A prosecutor or civil litigator would have little trouble showing that a deliberately created "hair trigger" is reckless and dangerous, and possibly suggests that the owner of a gun with such a trigger intended to take "dead aim" so that he could be assured of killing the victim.

All it takes to sway a jury is to create a doubt or a suspicion in their minds.

You can believe what you wish, but establishing a good shoot is almost never black and white. It can get pretty complicated, and the opposing team will use everything that they can find to prove their case. They're there to either send you to prison or take your assets. That's their job.
 
Personally Id be more concerned about a AD/ND of a carry gun that light in the trigger, rather than a trial or prosecution.

There is a reason experts suggest 4-6lb triggers on carry/use guns.
 
taktical said:
As far as your comment about unintentional discharge, my finger isnt on the trigger until im ready to shoot. Idk how you were trained or how people do things where you are from or how many real life self defense situations you have been in. All I can say is that my argument would be that since I am responsible for every round that exits my barrel, I modify my weapons to make them as accurate as possible. And yes, a good shoot is a good shoot.

LMAO! If you and your wife were real lawyers, you would know that NOTHING in court is as cut and dried as "A good shoot is a good shoot". For example, by all accounts Trayvon Martin was on top of George Zimmerman beating Zimmerman's head against the concrete. That would put the fear of death or serious bodily injury into anyone. Was that a good shoot? If it turns out that Zimmerman's gun has a modified light trigger, will that help his case? A jury will decide. Good luck with that.

Don't think your finger is ever on the trigger till you're ready to shoot? There have been studies with instrumented guns (that WILL be introduced into court) proving that under stress a trained operator's finger can touch the trigger without him being aware of it. All it takes is a little doubt in a jury, especially in a civil case, and they're into your insurance company and you for damages due to negligence.

Massad Ayoob on light triggers. He's been in expert witness in a bunch of self-defense cases. If you don't know who he is, you haven't done much legal research on firearms/shootings.

Massad Ayoob is recognized around the world as an expert in personal defense. He’s been “on the job” with law enforcement since 1972, and has written countless articles, books and courses on self-defense. He’s also been called as an expert witness in hundreds of self-defense cases.

I've highlighted a couple of areas to help you out, but you really should read the whole thing.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/01/brad-kozak/the-massad-ayoob-chronicles-part-v/

The two things I would strongly advise against doing and have strongly advised against doing, would be a trigger pull lighter than the factory recommends, and removal or de-activation of a safety device.

You try not to give weapons to your opponent. If I have an [opposing] attorney trying to nail my scalp to the wall, I’m not gonna give him the sound bite of “Ladies and gentlemen, you’re here to determine whether this man was reckless, and arrogant, and negligent. Ladies and gentlemen, he was so reckless, he deactivated the safety device on a lethal weapon. And he was so arrogant, he thought he knew more about this gun than the designer.” Tell me how you’re gonna get past that.

As far as the light trigger pull, your problem there, number one, is it has historically been linked to unintended discharges. So problem one, under stress, we SAY we’re gonna keep our finger off the trigger.

The trouble with that study done in Europe with trained emergency-response personnel, indicated that several times, the sensors that were put on the test gun picked up a finger touching it [the trigger], when the officers swore that during the high-stress exercise their finger had never entered the trigger guard. It apparently occurs unconsciously, as the mind says “Hey, if we have to shoot this thing, we want to verify we can reach the trigger.”


Second, you can go to court and say “I didn’t accidentally discharge the gun, I always keep my finger outside the trigger.” And they will then hit you with the bomb. “So, you want this jury to believe that you’re incapable of making a mistake? You’re the first perfect human being in two thousand and ten years. Is that what you’re telling this jury?” Now that is gonna be a pretty tough sell.

Where the accidental discharge theory comes, is they know you have a justifiable shooting, but you’ve got either the rare prosecutor that is politically driven and has some political hay to make by hanging you out to dry, or the much less-rare plaintiff’s lawyer who’s trying to sue you or your insurance company for something – mainly your insurance company.

They know there is no such thing as a justifiable accident. They know that in a state like Florida, or many other states now, even on the street, the so-called Castle Doctrine has been extended. Basically, particularly if you’re attacked in the home, the presumption is that you were right to shoot the intruder.

If you read the fine print, you’ll find all those laws are worded so they do not cover negligence. So all the other side has to come up with is say “Yeah, well, but he killed him by accident, and that’s not what this law is about. Our theory is, he accidentally shot him.” The light trigger lends itself to that. And you’ve basically just given them an argument they can use against you.


The prosecutor who is politically-motivated will use that argument, because he knows it’s a very tough sell to convince the jury that somebody like that, somebody like you, a productive member of society, with a clean criminal record has suddenly turned into Hannibal Lecter and decided to maliciously murder another human being for sport. They know it’s an easy, slam-dunk to convince the jury that somebody just like them got careless for just one second, and did something stupid.

So that becomes their theory of the case, and it’s a much easier sell. They don’t get bonus points for convicting you for murder instead of manslaughter. It’s really real simple, pass/fail. If you win the conviction, you done good. If the guy is acquitted, you’ve made an ass of yourself. So a lot of them will go for that low-hanging fruit, and that is where the false theory of “he shot him by accident” comes from. And that’s one of the reasons I don’t want to see a lighter-than factory spec trigger on a defensive firearm.

The other is in the civil case. The plaintiff’s lawyer is not looking for justice – they are looking for money. There are damn few people who are both so rich and so stupid, that if I won a civil judgement of a million dollars against them, there would be an unprotected, liquid million dollars that I could put my claws on and seize to satisfy the judgement.

Probably everybody reading your blog has a million dollar homeowner liability coverage. The insurance company has the money. And bingo, that’s where they go. If they make their theory that he shot them by accident, it’s homeowner negligence, they can get into the deep pockets of the insurance company. If they say, no, he deliberately, maliciously shot my client to watch him die, the attorney knows there’s not a homeowner’s policy in America that covers you for what’s called a willful tort, the deliberate act that harms another person.

So if they say you deliberately shot him, basically, they are closing off their access to where the money is. So that’s why it’s so attractive to them to say you shot him by accident with a hair-trigger gun. I do not like to leave blood like that in the water for the sharks.

Someone might argue that with a lighter trigger, I’m gonna hit better, so therefore it comes under your thing it’s safer for the bystanders. Actually, no, it fails to pass another legal test called the doctrine of competing harms. History tells us that light triggers are so often associated with accidental shooting tragedies, that trying to say “Well, I did it for safety,” just is not going to pass muster. It doesn’t pass the balance test.

So what I tell folks is, nothing lighter than “factory spec” in the trigger. Certainly make your trigger smooth, I’ve never seen anyone accused of having too-smooth a trigger pull, in 31 years as an expert witness, and 39 years of teaching this stuff, and 40 years of writing about it. But what I have seen again and again, is that the trigger is too light, and therefore reckless and negligent, and guilt-producing, and culpability-producing.

If I don’t like the disconnector safety on a Browning, I would get another gun, or have the one I have smoothed up so my problems with it are solved. If I don’t like the grip safety on a 1911, I’d buy a pistol that did not have a grip safety and be done with it. And the other modifications I think are going to be very defensible, and I my experience has been that they are very defensible.
 
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There is a reason experts suggest 4-6lb triggers on carry/use guns.

6 pounds on a 1911, I'm good with. That's ordnance spec. 4 pounds, not so much. I remember a night about 12 years ago that if my LW Commander had a 4-pound trigger, a father wouldn't have gone home to his little girls, and I'd have been facing a heavy legal burden proving that it was a "good shoot." (And it would have been)

I'd already centered on his chest from about 10 feet away, and had about 3 pounds of pull started on a 5-pound trigger when he suddenly stood down.

It came just that close. If it had gone the other way, a 10-pound pull wouldn't have made any difference. It was a win for both of us. Maybe...hopefully he'll remember it should he get drunk and fly into another rage and decide to grab an ax handle and corner somebody.
 
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Posted by 76shuvlinoff: My 5" Kimber is at 3.5 to 4 lbs using a buddy's Lyman tester.

From Kleanbore: This post suggests that that might be a little on the light side.

No argument from me on that but I have done nothing to mod this gun. Maybe my buddy's tester is reading light.
 
6 pounds on a 1911, I'm good with. That's ordnance spec. 4 pounds, not so much. I remember a night about 12 years ago that if my LW Commander had a 4-pound trigger, a father wouldn't have gone home to his little girls, and I'd have been facing a heavy legal burden proving that it was a "good shoot." (And it would have been)

I'd already centered on his chest from about 10 feet away, and had about 3 pounds of pull started on a 5-pound trigger when he suddenly stood down.

It came just that close. If it had gone the other way, a 10-pound pull wouldn't have made any difference. It was a win for both of us. Maybe...hopefully he'll remember it should he get drunk and fly into another rage and decide to grab an ax handle and corner somebody.

While in this particular case it saved the man's life, I'm not counting on my trigger pull to be the detterent between shoot and no-shoot. My finger is staying outside of the trigger guard until I've made the decision to shoot, and then it's going to pull the trigger back before the assailant can react. I'm counting on it to prevent the gun from going off accidentally.

From what I've read, most people consider under 4# with a manual safety or under 5# with a passive safety system to be unsafe (you consider under 6# to be unsafe, which means you also consider under 4# to be unsafe, that's how I'm justifying "most" here). That's what I consider, at least for prevention of NDs. If you want a harder pull, that's your peragotive.

I also read one article that suspects that NY triggers on Glocks are part of why police departments have such abysmal accuracy in shootouts.
 
While in this particular case it saved the man's life, I'm not counting on my trigger pull to be the detterent between shoot and no-shoot.

Nor would I, but that's the way it worked out in that particular instance.

My finger is staying outside of the trigger guard until I've made the decision to shoot, and then it's going to pull the trigger back before the assailant can react.

Then, I advise you not to stand still while you try to decide what his reaction will be. I've demonstrated the reality to more than a few people...cops included...that a man standing with a pistol in one hand, pointed straight at the ground...can raise it and fire a killing round before they could react and pull the trigger. After about three tries, the best of them were able to fire at the same instant that I did...but none were able to beat me...AND...they were fully expecting my move...AND...I'm an old man with bad shoulders. It was a real eye-opener for all who participated.

I recently took a fall and wrecked what was left of my right rotator cuff, so I can't play "Beat the Drop" any more...or I'd offer to demonstrate it to any who are within driving distance.
 
Posted by Skribs: My finger is staying outside of the trigger guard until I've made the decision to shoot,...
that's what we all say, but as previously posted,
So problem one, under stress, we SAY we’re gonna keep our finger off the trigger.

The trouble with that study done in Europe with trained emergency-response personnel, indicated that several times, the sensors that were put on the test gun picked up a finger touching it [the trigger], when the officers swore that during the high-stress exercise their finger had never entered the trigger guard. It apparently occurs unconsciously, as the mind says “Hey, if we have to shoot this thing, we want to verify we can reach the trigger.”
 
The reality is that the study is probably very correct and is exactly the reason I have relagated my 1911's to a more recreational use and have chosen to carry guns with a more forgiving trigger for defensive purposes.
At this moment I have only one 1911 and 3 Glocks handy and no scale but I can say with my crude method of measurement that the Kimber Raptor has about 1/16" take up and the Glocks all run around 7/16". I'll check the weights later but I'm guessing they are within 1-1.5 lbs of each other.
Once the lead starts flying I think it's pretty much a wash since I don't percieve that much difference in the reset of either.
If it was my job to train up to operator status in some elite Military or LE team with the intent of very specific surgical targeting the trigger of the well tuned 1911 would shine and be invaluable, in the EDC world of joe citizen who isn't charged with kicking in doors and rescuing hostages or neutralizing groups of terrorists the extra 3/8+" of trigger take up might make the difference in everyone going home with the same holes they came with but if the attack plays out in full it won't make enough difference to one who shoots and knows his gun to matter.
 
Ever get in and out of a car all day, in a 10 hour shift, with a 1911 on your hip? The weight/energy savings alone, in that 10 hr. period, is THE largest factor that agencies choose polymers.



I don't jump in and out of a car for 10 hours, but I do 12 hrs out of a truck. In and out all day. I don't carry my lighter M&P9, I carry the 1911. I am also no olympic athlete. Glocks are great guns, I just don't understand the constant discussions comparing them to something else. Relax....

LNK
 
Umm...really?


3) I'm pretty sure that comparing the DA and SA pulls of a revolver is entirely different than the striker-fired pull and single-action pull of an autoloader. On the DA side, I'm probably at less than half the weight on my XDm as I am on my SP101. On the SA side, I don't have a SAO autoloader, but I'd hope it doesn't have quite the hair trigger that my SP101 has in single action mode. I wouldn't carry a gun like that.

I have both a M&P9 and a 1911. Neither is a target trigger. The M&P has a much longer, smooth trigger. With a rather vague, compared to the 1911 which is very short and crisp. Someone posted about a really nice revolver having both triggers. SA is close to 1911, DA is more like M&P. That is the closest you will find without shooting both.

LNK
 
Uhhhhhh, relax about what: the entire thread is about a G21 comparo. to a 1911. Duh?



I don't jump in and out of a car for 10 hours, but I do 12 hrs out of a truck. In and out all day. I don't carry my lighter M&P9, I carry the 1911. I am also no olympic athlete. Glocks are great guns, I just don't understand the constant discussions comparing them to something else. Relax....
 
If the 1911 and G21 were both made TODAY...

Here's another thought: You have multiple assailants headed your way, and you have to choose one - a NIB 1911 or a NIB G21. Which one are you going to bet your life on - untested?

Every 1911 I've ever owned needed some tuning to be reliable. Every Glock has functioned perfectly right out of the box. I love 1911s, but I'd grab the Glock.
 
Here's another thought: You have multiple assailants headed your way, and you have to choose one - a NIB 1911 or a NIB G21. Which one are you going to bet your life on - untested?

Personally? Definitely Glock. I have very little experience or practice with 1911s, but what I've read suggests the 1911 might need some work, the Glock should be fine. I'm also more trained on a Glockish platform (XDm, in this case) and so would be more apt to succeed with that particular weapon.
 
Here's another thought: You have multiple assailants headed your way, and you have to choose one.

It won't matter much. If they've all got guns, you probably won't live long enough to empty the magazine. If they're not, they'll disappear like snowflakes in a hot fire when the first one gets tagged. We're probably not talkin' about highly trained and motivated people here.

Walter Mitty fantasies aside, of course.
 
It won't matter much. If they've all got guns, you probably won't live long enough to empty the magazine. If they're not, they'll disappear like snowflakes in a hot fire when the first one gets tagged. We're probably not talkin' about highly trained and motivated people here.

Walter Mitty fantasies aside, of course.

Then it would matter for me. Glock would be draw-fire-they run. 1911 would be draw-click-"oh yeah, there's a safety"-safety-fire-they run.
 
Here's another thought: You have multiple assailants headed your way, and you have to choose one - a NIB 1911 or a NIB G21. Which one are you going to bet your life on - untested?

Since we're fantasizing and I don't have a rifle or shotgun... I have two hands, why would I choose one?

:evil:
 
Since we're fantasizing and I don't have a rifle or shotgun... I have two hands, why would I choose one?

The symmetry-OCD in me could never akimbo two different guns.
 
Fantasy or not I have owned a few new ones of each and the truth is what everyone knows without me saying it.
Out of the box I bet the reliability of the first 50-100 rds is at least 5 to 1.
 
why would that be any worse than carrying a Glock? The grip safety is still active right?

Would the trigger be too light to make it worrisome or dangerous?
 
why would that be any worse than carrying a Glock? The grip safety is still active right?

That's right. Still gotta pull the trigger to fire it. As long as it's in the holster, the grip safety blocks the trigger.

Would the trigger be too light to make it worrisome or dangerous?

Only if ya get on it too quick before it clears leather.
 
Well, I guess if ya can't teach yourself to wipe off a safety...

It's not that I can't, it's just that I haven't. Why do I need to teach myself to when my current handguns are XDm, SP101, and LCP, and my planned setup is XDm and XDs?
 
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