Ignorance abounds

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Did you ask him if leaving a car battery on concrete will make it go bad?
Okay, so it's completely off topic, and non-gun related, but a lead-acid battery will discharge on concrete. It will charge up just fine afterwords, but 12-24 hours and it will be dead as a hammer.

Funny, that. I keep sometimes up to a dozen lead-acid batteries on the garage floor, including the spare "special" battery for my wife's '03 T'bird and they all hold their charge quite nicely for years sometimes. They will lose charge gradually from internal resistance or if the top is dirty with an ionic solution. Back in the '30s and '40s when batteries were marginal, at best, they would lose charge just sitting around regardless of the surface. BTW and again, off topic, Optima's are the best out there today. They are expensive but they are excellent batteries. Oh yeah, if an L/A battery is "as dead as a hammer", it probably will never have the capacity it did before, even if it does take a charge. I've worked with UPSs for thirty years and at the telco, where L/A batteries run the system.
 
The later model excuse for batteries discharging is because of the incredible amount of crud on the battery top that never gets cleaned off. There is a slow leakage of current on top post batteries that will allow self discharge - especially from the guys who leave them laying around in a garage because they have no car to put them in.

It's not the concrete, but that's all that some folks see.

Now, aside from old springs in old guns that old men knew would go soft - they saw it happen - we have a newer generation who think that any gun can be a CCW gun - especially a certain venerated military model. Frankly, same kind of thought pattern - not up to speed with modern design and tactics. God forbid someone should suggest that a single action design with exposed hammer and multiple safeties is a bad choice for anywhere but a range, especially one with a metal frame that's customized with dozens of expensive modifications.

Seems I remember the zenith of developement was to make them double action, bob the hammer, and alloy for light carry. Don't see those anymore. Striker fired compacts do a better job. :evil:

Urban mythology is quite fun when you see it daily all around you.
 
Wet Cell Battery

I am an ASE certified/re-certified automotive electrician and I can emphatically say that concrete WILL NOT discharge a wet-cell battery! Now back to your regular programming.
 
Many gun myths, and myths in general are based on things that used to be true. For example, I have heard older people say "never let the sun set on a dirty gun". Back in the days of corossive primers and black powder that was absolutly true.
Many people still think that a shooting victim must have the bullet removed in order to recover. Bullets used to be lubricated with animal fat during the Civil War and that was true. Any forign protien (anything that was once living) will set up a massive infection if not removed. With modern jacketed bullets and antibiotics, surgeons often leave the bullet in because removing them may do more damage.
 
Good to hear the truth about the batt concrete myth, so many ASE techs swear by that old myth. but i have a good friend with an hk p2000 " a new firearm " that had a few FTF"s. New mag springs cured it. Old timer says springs wear with time. well i'm inclined to agree. some do. maybe even on a walmart marlin.
 
I guess if I have 10 mags for a certain gun, I would just keep half of them full just in case the old man was right.
 
It was the hammer-spring, not a magazine spring. Not too long ago, springs weren't quite as well built as today, and could take a "set" if left compressed. The lubricants of the day also dried up if left alone for months, and that could also cause problems with spring actions. The springs would still work, but the combination often caused light-strikes, and, as springs were cheap, they were replaced.

we have a newer generation who think that any gun can be a CCW gun - especially a certain venerated military model. Frankly, same kind of thought pattern - not up to speed with modern design and tactics. God forbid someone should suggest that a single action design with exposed hammer and multiple safeties is a bad choice for anywhere but a range, especially one with a metal frame that's customized with dozens of expensive modifications.
Click to expand...

WHY do we have to always have someone try to impart their mall-ninja wisdom like this? Unless you wish to acknowledge that this is a Glock-troll, let's stick to the subject, and spare us the inane opinions. Do try to remember that up until very recently, striker-fired handguns were felt to be unsafe carried with a round in the chamber, due to their abundance in cheap, unreliable, handguns. :barf:
 
I have several 1950 vintage M1 carbine 30 round magazines inherited from my father-in-law that were always kept loaded. When I got them I unloaded them. It was very easy because the springs were so weak. Some of them will not raise the follower all the way up because they are so weak. They did not see a lot of use, they were just kept loaded. Feel free to make your own conclusion.
 
I started to post this earlier but thought it may be too off topic, but anyway here goes.
This is in regards to springs and fatigue. Here we say the new springs are better and the springs do not get weak, OK I believe that.
Now on another forum I frequent regarding cars they state the clicker type of torque wrenches need to be set to "0" so the spring doesn't take a set. Just asking.

If I post in the auto forum "guns" are off topic.
Posting here wrenches are off topic.

Just wondering about the springs.

If this is to far out please delet. But thanks for any info.
 
We have always had to zero micro/click torque wrenches when putting them away. Whatever the reason,they WILL become inaccurate and have to be recalibrated.
 
My Edison cabinet phonograph was built in 1916. Its spring is a piece of coiled steel, kept wound for the better part of ninety three years in great aunt's attic. Still works fine.

I found a Procter "Little Nipper" (patented 1913) mousetrap in my great grandfather's house, which trap I'm told was set in 1919 for a mouse espied during the influenza panic. I tapped the spring release with a pencil, and the trap snapped the tip off the pencil.

Springs don't wear out from compression; only tired myths wear out from compression.
 
Better check with a gunsmith before making blanket statements. Small springs, from years ago, did "wear out", and lose height, and power, when compared to new springs. The loss of power resulted in light strikes, and feed problems. Springs from years ago weren't made of today's materials. Not even were they COIL springs. Many were leaf-springs, and routinely broke. Ask anyone who has worked on the Old Colts, or Remingtons.

Blanket statements rarely disprove myths, as, in many cases, they're as goofy as the myth they purport to dis-spell.
 
It is common sense that a compressed spring will loose its force.
We have always had to zero micro/click torque wrenches when putting them away. Whatever the reason,they WILL become inaccurate and have to be recalibrated.
Click to expand...
I always zero my torque wrenches when I am done with them.
 
Statement and question,

In my experience you can't sway an 80yo guys opinion no matter who you are.


Now a question,

does leaving a couple Uzi mags loaded to capacity do any harm to them at all, say for months at a time?
 
Springs weaken from compressing and decompressing, not from being left compressed. Nothing "common sense" about that myth.


Unless it's lying out on your workbench, every spring is under some tension. Compressing it a little adds a little to the potential energy of the system, but leaving it that way doesn't stress the system.
 
that's still not a silly as the "American made 7.62x39mm .308" bore and bullet myth"

That likely many posters on this very thread believe
 
Why Bother

From the original OP, the guy was probably so set in his ways and it would not have mattered what you said.
Click to expand...

I agree. We should only live that long?............:eek:
 
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Springs weaken from compressing and decompressing, not from being left compressed.
Click to expand...
Ok, one more time, just for the heck of it.

The idea that springs don't weaken from being left compressed is only true in the ideal case. A well designed spring, properly manufactured from good materials that is not over-compressed will not weaken from being left compressed. When you change any of those factors you end up with a spring that can weaken from being left compressed.

Every airgun mainspring manufacturer, airgunsmith and airgun maker will advise you not to leave the airgun cocked for any longer than is necessary as it weakens the springs. You COULD make the spring strong enough so that this wouldn't happen, but then the user wouldn't be able to cock the airgun. OR, you could redesign the gun to prevent the spring from being over-compressed---but then you'd need a much larger airgun and/or a more complicated cocking linkage to get the same power level.

Here's a test demonstrating that leaving a spring piston airgun cocked (spring compressed) weakens the spring. Note that the longer the spring was left compressed the more it weakened.

Here's a summary of another similar test from Tom Gaylord's book on the R1.

In the same way, some gun manufacturers tried to squeeze every last bit of capacity out of their double-column magazines while constrained by an overall size limit and the need for the spring to be compressed easily enough that loading it doesn't require special equipment. That resulted in some magazines that, when loaded fully, would overcompress the springs resulting in the springs weakening even without cycling.

Most magazines are not affected by being left fully loaded, but some, primarily double-column magazines, can weaken noticeably from being left fully loaded. Offhand, I can't recall EVER hearing of this being an issue with good quality single-stack magazines.

Wolff Gunsprings acknowledges this on their website, but they overstate their case by making it sound like it's a universal problem. These days, it's pretty rare to find a spring in a quality firearm or quality firearm magazine that will weaken from being left compressed but it can happen. Which means that it's a good idea to check your equipment from time to time to see how it's holding up.
 
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Geez- rough crowd! :p

Should I live to be 80, I want young folk to listen to me and nod in agreement with my proclaimations. That's one of the advantages of being old. You know, the old Grandfather thing.

Granted I'll tell plenty of whoppers, but there are usually some grain of truth in the old stories. :) Like the day I took out the bumblebee at 100 yds with my trusty old single shot Ithaca lever action .22. :evil:

Of course, I'll have grandkids if I live that long and they'll likely not even understand how I owned a rifle to begin with.
 
In other words if you don't want to spend unecessary time checking to make sure your springs aren't being stressed just leave them in the uncompressed state when possible.
Ok, one more time, just for the heck of it.

The idea that springs don't weaken from being left compressed is only true in the ideal case. A well designed spring, properly manufactured from good materials that is not over-compressed will not weaken from being left compressed. When you change any of those factors you end up with a spring that can weaken from being left compressed.

Every airgun mainspring manufacturer, airgunsmith and airgun maker will advise you not to leave the airgun cocked for any longer than is necessary as it weakens the springs. You COULD make the spring strong enough so that this wouldn't happen, but then the user wouldn't be able to cock the airgun. OR, you could redesign the gun to prevent the spring from being over-compressed---but then you'd need a much larger airgun and/or a more complicated cocking linkage to get the same power level.

Here's a test demonstrating that leaving a spring piston airgun cocked (spring compressed) weakens the spring. Note that the longer the spring was left compressed the more it weakened.

Here's a summary of another similar test from Tom Gaylord's book on the R1.

In the same way, some gun manufacturers tried to squeeze every last bit of capacity out of their double-column magazines while constrained by an overall size limit and the need for the spring to be compressed easily enough that loading it doesn't require special equipment. That resulted in some magazines that, when loaded fully, would overcompress the springs resulting in the springs weakening even without cycling.

Most magazines are not affected by being left fully loaded, but some, primarily double-column magazines, can weaken noticeably from being left fully loaded. Offhand, I can't recall EVER hearing of this being an issue with good quality single-stack magazines.

Wolff Gunsprings acknowledges this on their website, but they overstate their case by making it sound like it's a universal problem. These days, it's pretty rare to find a spring in a quality firearm or quality firearm magazine that will weaken from being left compressed but it can happen. Which means that it's a good idea to check your equipment from time to time to see how it's holding up.
Click to expand...
I knew this had some merit to it. Thanks for providing evidence.
 
WHY do we have to always have someone try to impart their mall-ninja wisdom like this? Unless you wish to acknowledge that this is a Glock-troll, let's stick to the subject, and spare us the inane opinions. Do try to remember that up until very recently, striker-fired handguns were felt to be unsafe carried with a round in the chamber, due to their abundance in cheap, unreliable, handguns.

Gee, someone is showing a sensitivity.

Military and LEO sidearms now avoid exposed hammer design. They fact they are striker fired isn't because cheap versions no longer fail - heck, bolt actions are striker fired since Mauser made them in the 1800's - it's because exposed hammer sidearms don't do as well in close combat. Gun grabs disable hammers when the hand interferes with striking the firing pin. Multiple external safeties exist because internal ones weren't originally designed. Double action exists because thumbing the hammer takes too long on a light strike.

Popular as they may be, Walther P38's, Berettas, 1911's, Browning High Powers, etc., don't get the nod anymore for concealed carry among professionals - decision makers deliberately chose the cheap striker fired designs for other reasons, like polymer frames, DA action, and ease of use.

I like to bust old school myths,too - guess what, warming up your car is a total waste of gas and does nothing for the rest of the drivetrain. Jump starting with the auto running is bad for your electronics, and alternators don't charge dead batteries - they will overheat and fry the electronic regulator. It's the #1 reason for rebuilt alternator returns. If you have a dead battery, get a battery charger. When Lee Ioccoca said "This changes everything," he meant it. Modern fuel injection cars are different. Do not bring quaint old '60's thinking into a modern auto parts store.

As a 22 year Retired Reservist, veteran, and Military Police soldier, I have carried and used exposed hammer pistols - in holsters, where they belong. CCW? I'm not so keen on Glocks - double stack magazines are not an advantage or even necessary. The 1911 is better there, it's only attribute. Otherwise, it's heavy, and antiquated - best left in the range bag, not the street.

I'm not the old guy trapped in an ancient mindset here.
 
I had to reply

Sorry - but springs don't weaken when compressed or operated for zillions of times. It's a little thing called Youngs Modulus and Hystereis. As long as the spring isn't stretched past it's fatigue point (youngs modulus), the hysteresis of the material will always ensure it returns back to it's original position.

(so - why then do garage door springs snap? - they don't, the loop on the end breaks because of case hardening but the spring remains viable)

:eek:
 
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