I'm Nothing Without You: Help guide a new shooter?

[ryan in maine]

first, let me apologize. I know the subject is rehashed every so often. I feel it's not such a bad thing however, 'cause something new usually gets added/revealed since everyone's situation is a little different.

trust me, this will read faster than it looks.

now, some things worthy of note:
1). I'm a small-framed, lanky guy (5'8", 155 lbs)
2). I think I have smallish hands (maybe the smaller side of whatever is considered average, I usually wear a medium glove but sometimes require a small) with pointy fingertips and swollen knuckles
3). I wear loose-fitting clothing
4). I've only been shooting a couple times total, and only have notes to show for it (might as well say I'm starting from scratch)
5). I am a young guy and I want to spend under $600 (maybe a little over depending on the deal, but even that looks like it could be tough to spare)

now, some more things worthy of note. my notes on caliber I took from my couple trips going shooting:
.22LR: tons of fun.
.380ACP: kind of a pain in the butt. it's not that I found it difficult to shoot, it's just the availability of platforms it has vs. its more effective relatives.
.38special: a really fun round. really peaked my interest in revolvers as well. +P loads were still fun to shoot, and I wouldn't mind a small revolver with 5 shots of it.
.357mag: definitely a step up over .38+P, haaa. it wasn't bad shooting it out of a heavy revolver, but lighter revolvers weren't much fun to shoot after a few goes. still, I'd carry it in a small revolver for defense.
9mm: not bad @ all. almost as fun as the .38 but definitely has a little more zing. +P took a little getting used to in smaller firearms, but it was easy to understand why it's so popular.
.40S&W: not too bad. I thought it actually felt better out of some of the same firearms compared to the 9mm. I thought this was going to be one of the most unpleasant rounds. I was wrong.
.45ACP: maybe my favorite round after the .38? it didn't seem to have any "snap" to it, if y'know what I mean. it seemed to push rather than tilt, and really kept you on target, especially in 1911-style models.
.45GAP: *shrug* it wasn't bad, but I liked the .45ACP better. the .45ACP felt more "natural", I suppose. I didn't see the point of the .45GAP but I understand it has a dedicated following.
.357Sig: another round I thought I'd hate. really not so bad. tho I'd put it behind .38, 9mm, .40, and .45 as far as how much I liked it. didn't really shoot it as much as the others tho. no one had much going in .357Sig.
10mm: there was an initial period of pure awe... then... I dunno. it reminded me of the .45 more than the .40 as far as recoil goes. but you definitely know it's more serious. I didn't get to shoot it much but, it wasn't so bad. too powerful for me tho. it's something I'd have to build up to.
.44mag: okay, this is where they started messing with me. it was 5 rounds of "whoa... whoa... whoa... whoa... whoa... yowza", haaa. I didn't wanna shoot it any more. that was out of a 4" barrel I think.

I stupidly forgot to take down the makes and models of everything I shot. I know I shot every size of Springfield XD and Glock in their available calibers. and I shot a few Sigs, CZ's, and Beretta's. couple others too, but I don't remember. I think they were CZ variants like a Baby Eagle or something. then I shot some S&W and Taurus revolvers. anyways, moving on...

I have a couple problems. I don't really have anywhere to go and try out firearms. and in addition to that, I don't really have anywhere to go and shoot either. there are only two ranges in get-to-able distance (one outdoor, one outdoor/indoor), and one of them requires someone to vouch for you and requires you purchase an NRA membership thru them, which kind of turned me off from them. I'm not a big fan of that concept.

so I'm pretty much just limited to handling and feeling out a firearm, and @ that, really only the most popular, and often not modern firearms @ the local shops. Glock, S&W, Ruger, Beretta and such. anything else will likely require an internet order and a transfer (altho there is a new shop on Main St. that I haven't checked out yet that looks like they might be more defensive-oriented than the rest of the sport-oriented shops around here). right now I'm dependent on pro-2A gun owner friends with land to shoot on, and it's really inconvenient. I believe this is one of the biggest hinders a rural shooter can face. we just can't get out to a gun shop and a shooting range and get things done like most folks seem to be able to.

I mean, I'd like to handle a Kahr K9, Kahr MK9, Sig 220, Sig 239, Para CCW, Para Nite Tac ST, a Dan Wesson Classic Bobtail, etc and save up for one, but it doesn't seem feasible. even the less expensive firearms I've been looking @ aren't really easily available to me, and I'd rather not make a really large investment in my first firearm, since it will act as a feeler. I'd just like something with a dependable reputation that is hand-friendly.

but moving on again, here's what I've been looking @:
Springfield XD (various models)
CZ 75B ST
EEA Witness (various models)
Walther P99 AS
Beretta PX4 Storm
Glock 36
Kahr CW40
Bersa Thunder ST
Smith & Wesson Model 60 5"
and a few other revolvers...

I think you get the trend I'm setting. so now that I've provided a fair amount of information, I'll ask my questions (despite me having searched the forums and read about as much as I can, sorry)...

1). am I on the right track as far as firearms I'm looking @? is there anything else you would recommend I look @ in that sub-$600 (or less) range?
2). is it a bad idea for a new shooter to buy used? I noticed some of the pricier firearms I eyed were in my price range used, but I realize you can never be totally sure of the work the firearm would require.
3). how would I go about finding land to shoot on @ my own convenience? you can never be sure if you're on private land around here.
4). my pants are all 36" and 38" waists. 36" is my actual size I go to but I have some 38" pants in my dresser in case I move up a weight class. is this sufficient for IWB carry, or will finding a holster be largely trial and error (feel free to recommend a holster for a righty if you recommend a firearm).
5). does anyone have any gun shop etiquette advice? or any other general advice for a new shooter? things you think someone should know and you want to pass on to my generation (born in '84) beyond the 4 rules?
6). an afterthought, maybe an odd question, but do gun shops (online or otherwise) commonly accept monthly payments?

 

[rangerruck]

avoid the eaa and the bersa. mags cost a ton on the bersa, and they dont' have the best rep, for quality control. the eaa is actually fine, but it is a cz clone, so go with cz. cz, in all it's forms and shapes is a rarity in the gunworld, whether you are shooting pistols, rimfire rifles, or centerfire, their accuracy is usually quite stunning, and most guys will tell you, that you actually get your money's worth or more, when you buy cz. i have 4 of them, and am about to get number 5, a rimfire rifle chambered in 17m2.

 

[ryan in maine]

thanks for replying.

I really like the CZ 75B ST. it's definitely @ the top of my list and I have found prices in the $480's, which ain't too shabby for a stainless handgun with CZ's reputation. I have yet to check Gun Broker tho. might find an even better price there.

- Ryan

 

[CypherNinja]

You are definitely on the right track. I own a CZ75B Stainless, I recommend it.

Also .38, .357, 9mm, .357Sig, .40, .45ACP, and .45GAP are generally considered 'service calibers', and are basically the normal range one looks for for self defense. Smaller calibers like .32 and .380 are generally considered only if your looking for a really small gun. (I carry a P3AT)

Finally, (other than .22LR) 9mm will be the cheapest to practice with by far.


EDIT: You probably already knew all of that, but hey.

 

[Clipper]

If you're planning to carry, remember that you'll be lugging up to 2 pounds of extra weight on your belt or in your pants. I have to wear suspenders to keep my pants up, since I'm not only a big guy, but I don't have hips or butt to snag my belt on. So for me, pocket carry, and the lightest weight pistol I can find is the main concern. I carry a P3AT now, and am waiting for the PF-9 to become available here. I also have a Taurus PT-145 Pro, which is a great pistol, and inexpensive, but it's still bigger than I want to carry every day, and I find myself turning back to my Kel-Tec for my 'always' gun.

 

[Colt46]

Start out with a decent .22 revolver

Smith and wesson double actions or even a ruger single action. The .22 is cheap to feed, accurate and will be a good training platform to concentrate on shooting mechanics.
Several thousand rounds of .22 are easy to afford and give you confidence and some semblence of skill to take on a larger caliber weapon.

 

[ConfuseUs]

This should go in the general handguns forum since the OP seems more concerned with handguns.

+1 on starting out with a .22.

If you're looking at the CZ-75 then the Kadet kit is a good investment. In general, I would recommend that you either purchase a .22 first or purchase a centerfire platform with a .22 conversion kit. Your skills with a handgun will be significantly improved by shooting a ratio of about 10-15 rds of .22 for every round of centerfire.

There are several reasons why focusing on .22 improves your skills
First, it doesn't beat you up, so you can focus on the fundamentals better.
Second you can shoot so much that your muscle memory is better.
Third it's cheap. This is overlooked a lot, but lots of times people don't shoot because they have better things to do with the $50 needed to buy a 250 rd value pack of 9mm, never mind range fees, etc.

 

[whitetiger7654]

First I think you overlooked the most basic step or maybe I missed it in your post. What is purpose of the gun? Range fun, self defense, home defense, other?

Based on the answer to that you could be on the right track or way off.

 

[Jim Watson]

one of them requires someone to vouch for you and requires you purchase an NRA membership thru them, which kind of turned me off from them. I'm not a big fan of that concept

My club requires references to try to weed out the weirdos.
We also require NRA membership, it gets us a better rate on insurance and is the largest organization working to protect our right to buy guns.

If you do not have personal acquaintances who will let you shoot on their property, a membership club is the best approach. Better than renting a lane at a commercial range with signs "No holsters" and "No rapid fire."

 

[Zen21Tao]

Definitely consider checking out the Sig P239 and P245. They seem to fit many people with small hands perfectly plus they are both single stack designs which are great if you decide you want to start carry concealed (laws of your state permitting). The single stack design adds to comfort when carrying and reduces printing (gun pushing out through clothing).

Also, the P239 .40S&W can be turned into a .357 Sig with just a simple barrel change as they both use the same magazine. 2 guns in one for just the cost of a replacement barrel. As for the P245, it also takes P220 magazines and extended 10 rnd magazines.

 

[coelacanth]

just a thought . . . . .

the folks who took you shooting and let you fire all those different weapons and ammo seem like a natural place to start a good relationship with the shooting sports and those of us involved in same. Most shooters are pretty approachable and unless you did all that somewhere besides where you are now it seems they would have a lot of the answers you are seeking. That said I would vote for a good quality .22 LR handgun and/or rifle as they are cheap and easy to shoot and are great for building your skill level quickly. For a defensive weapon/caliber combo I think you would be hard pressed to beat the Springfield XD series in 9mm. Either the 5 inch tactical model or the 4 inch service model would make a good choice in terms of value and practicality. The plus side of the 9mm is the fact that it is probably the least expensive of all centerfire calibers to shoot at this time. If you have no other options re: where to shoot there are some solutions that can keep you shooting pretty much anywhere you are. 1) Wax or rubber bullets powered by a large pistol primer have a very mild report and good accuracy out to about 10 yards. 2) There are snap caps that have a built in laser pointer that flashes when the trigger is pulled showing where the shot would have landed. 3) Airguns are readily available and some of the better ones are phenomenally accurate. They are also very useful for teaching shooting discipline to novice shooters. Hope this was helpful - good luck.

 

[10 Ring Tao]

Stick with the cheapest calibers. 9mm and .22. Your greatest concern at this point is getting used to the mechanics of shooting. That ONLY comes from actually pulling the trigger. Cheaper ammo = more trigger time.

I say 9mm because it is cheap enough to shoot a lot more than the others, and will also serve you just as well as any other self defense caliber when using modern hollowpoints. I started with the basics. I found the cheapest, most reliable guns, chambered in one of the self defense calibers, that was small enough to carry, and that was cheap to shoot. That ended up being a $400 glock 19, and I recommend the same.

I think I've only bought two or three of my couple dozen guns new. Guns made by reputable manufacturers will generally outlast several owners. A perfect example is my first glock, the model 19. Bought it used online. It had some problems feeding that were follower related, so I called up glock. They sent me new followers and springs, no charge.

 

[Ghost Walker]

Interesting post, Ryan! I must say that I’m impressed with your evaluation of the different pistols you’ve tried. The only conclusion I don’t quite agree with is the 44 magnum. The 44 is a dual caliber pistol; it’ll handle either 44 special or 44 magnum. As far as recoil goes, well, that’s something you learn to adjust to. The ability to manage recoil comes over time and improves with increased experience.

(I’m telling you this because the 44 is my all time favorite revolver caliber: very accurate, very flat shooting, and versatile.)

Anyway, because of its size, a 44 might not be for you – especially as a first handgun. I’m perplexed by your intended use for this first pistol. You left this part out of an, otherwise, highly detailed post. What do you want to do with it: learn to shoot, enter a few IDPA matches, or carry around with you all day long?

I’m going to agree with others who’ve recommended, either, the 22 long rifle, or the 9mm chamberings. Personally, I’d take the 9mm as the most universally useful caliber, though. With a 22 LR caliber, you can burn up a lot of ammo, do a lot of plinking, and learn a lot about using a handgun. What you can’t do, however, is rely on it for SD or enter into some of the competition, ‘fun matches’ you might become attracted to as your skills mature.

New shooters, also, need to learn how to manage recoil - to turn it into a, ‘useful tool’ and natural consequence of firing a gun instead of an unpleasant bugaboo to be, either, afraid of or to become confused by. This is an important shooting skill that no 22 caliber firearm is going to be able to instill into your brain and reflexes.

It's important to keep in mind what you intend to do with just one pistol for an extended period of time. After looking over your list, I see a few pistols I simple don’t like. (enough said!) My suggestion would be for you to, also, consider the following Glock Models: G-19, G-17, and G-34. (all uncompensated) Glocks are affordable, easy to maintain, ridiculously easy to repair, and open to significant modifications along with lots and lots of accessories.

These things said, I’ll try to answer your questions from my own perspective of more than 50 years handling and using firearms:

1). Am I on the right track as far as firearms I'm looking @? is there anything else you would recommend I look @ in that sub-$600 (or less) range?

Yes, I’d say that you are. You do need to think about how you’re going to be using this new pistol, though. The principal use will have much to do with what you should choose.

2). Is it a bad idea for a new shooter to buy used? I noticed some of the pricier firearms I eyed were in my price range used, but I realize you can never be totally sure of the work the firearm would require.

Not at all. You do, however, need to know how to examine a used handgun. If this is the way you want to go, then, do a Google search on how to buy a used handgun; and, it would be a plus if you’re able to shoot the gun before buying.

(Between you and me, I personally wouldn’t buy any used Glock that wasn’t a 3rd generation model; and, on a used Glock, check to see if it will feed Gold Dots.)

3). How would I go about finding land to shoot on @ my own convenience? You can never be sure if you're on private land around here.

I’d ask the local police where they shoot; and, if they know of anyplace where you might be able to go. Ask people at gun shops, too. A quick call to the NRA might, also, be a good idea.

4). My pants are all 36" and 38" waists. 36" is my actual size I go to but I have some 38" pants in my dresser in case I move up a weight class. is this sufficient for IWB carry, or will finding a holster be largely trial and error (feel free to recommend a holster for a righty if you recommend a firearm).

Add 2” to your belt size for IWB carry; and, try to purchase a gun belt with a 7 hole tongue rather than a standard 5 hole model. I’d recommend you take a look at either of these belt manufacturers:

http://www.thebeltman.net/

http://rlcompanyusa.stores.yahoo.net/gunbelts1.html

Now that we’re talking about CCW, you should ALWAYS use a holster that pulls the butt of the pistol, tight, into your body. However, at the range you’re NOT going to be either comfortable or safe practicing from an IWB carry rig. For range use you need to pick up an OWB holster – OK!

If you want to know what I do: I use two Blade-Tech holsters, a standard RH, and a standard LH. I wear the LH holster on my RH side as an IWB holster all day long. When I’m at the range. I pull the LH holster from the inside of my gun belt, and replace it with a standard OWB RH rig that is much easier to use for drawing and reholstering.

(Drawing and reholstering a charged pistol are two of the most dangerous things you'll ever do with a handgun; and, NOT practices I recommend for a beginner - Got it!)

5). Does anyone have any gun shop etiquette advice? or any other general advice for a new shooter? Things you think someone should know and you want to pass on to my generation (born in '84) beyond the 4 rules?

Ryan, the, ‘Four Rules’ are everything!

When I taught her how to handle a combat pistol, I made my own wife memorize the Four Rules by heart - by heart! I used to spring quick quizzes on her just to see if she could repeat these 4 rules back to me at anytime of the day. Happily, she could; and, better yet, she also took them very seriously. (Sometimes she'll even remind me if she sees me doing something around the house that she doesn't quite like!)

As an instructor I can tell you that I’ll jump all over a shooter – any shooter – who demonstrates either (1) a lazy trigger finger or (2) poor muzzle control. These are two cardinal gun handling sins that are completely inexcusable! Do anything like this more than once with me; and, I’ll be done with you – Period.

Learn to keep your trigger finger arrow straight! Learn not to place it inside the guard until AFTER you have made a conscious decision to fire the weapon.

Learn to be extremely careful with where you point a muzzle. If you’re unwilling to see something (or someone) destroyed, then, don’t even let the muzzle sweep across them.

It sounds trite; and, sure, we all take it for granted; but, the most common mistake I’ve seen is other people using or firing an, ‘empty gun’. I’ve seen highly experienced gunmen make this serious mistake; so, don’t ever thing that it doesn’t happen or, especially, that it can’t happen to you. I assure you that it CAN!

I’ll give you a fifth rule: Never play with a firearm! (Think about it because lots of people do.)

6). An afterthought, maybe an odd question, but do gun shops (online or otherwise) commonly accept monthly payments?

A few do. You’ll often see this language in their ads or online literature. (Be careful, though, if you default after, say, 4 months of payment you might not get your money back.

One last thing; trust me: Pick up 10 A-Zoom snap caps for whatever new pistol you buy. (You'll be glad that you did!)

 

[antsi]

Professional instruction would be a really good idea at this stage. Starting off with good habits is a lot easier than trying to eliminate bad habits later.

Agree with those above who suggest shooting a lot of .22; consider a handgun that has a good .22 conversion kit. 1911 pattern pistols and the CZ 75 both have .22 conversions available.

Carrying full size pistols IWB can be a challenging proposition. Will definitely require a quality belt designed for the purpose. Will probably require that you make at least some changes in your wardrobe. Personally I have never been able to carry IWB comfortably but obviously some people do manage. Smaller, and particularly, thinner pistols could be helpful. If I had to carry IWB, I'd consider a SIG 239 chambered in 9mm but that's just me.

To some extent, there is a conflict between wanting to get a small easily carryable pistol and wanting to get a good learning gun for lots of high-volume shooting practice. Smaller lighter pistols are generally less pleasant to shoot and more difficult to shoot accurately. Larger heavier pistols are generally more pleasant to shoot and easier to shoot accurately.

Not sure what the nature of your objection to joining the NRA is. If you have some kind of political disagreement with the NRA remember that political lobbying is a tiny fraction of the NRA's activities - they are 95% a shooting education and competition marksmanship organization - and the $35 you spend on your regular membership does not go to political lobbying. In fact the NRA itself cannot legally do political lobbying - the political arm of the NRA is the NRA-ILA and they have entirely separate funding. That said, if you value your right to carry, you might want to consider donating to the NRA-ILA.

 

[ryan in maine]

CypherNinja: You are definitely on the right track. I own a CZ75B Stainless, I recommend it.

Also .38, .357, 9mm, .357Sig, .40, .45ACP, and .45GAP are generally considered 'service calibers', and are basically the normal range one looks for for self defense. Smaller calibers like .32 and .380 are generally considered only if your looking for a really small gun. (I carry a P3AT)

Finally, (other than .22LR) 9mm will be the cheapest to practice with by far.


EDIT: You probably already knew all of that, but hey.

thanks for replying.

it's good to hear you have confidence in the CZ 75B ST since it is in my top two (along with the S&W Model 60 5"). I'm not looking for a really small gun (then again, when I think small gun I'm thinking along the lines of something still chambered in a serious caliber).

my top two are there largely in part due to ammo costs. 9mm and .38special out of a nicely weighted gun was what I found most pleasant to shoot anyways. so it works out well.

I would like a .22LR in the future, but am not planning on starting out there. I already know I can comfortably shoot 9mm and .38special. the firearm I'm looking for will be for learning, training, home defense, and concealed carry.

Clipper: If you're planning to carry, remember that you'll be lugging up to 2 pounds of extra weight on your belt or in your pants. I have to wear suspenders to keep my pants up, since I'm not only a big guy, but I don't have hips or butt to snag my belt on. So for me, pocket carry, and the lightest weight pistol I can find is the main concern. I carry a P3AT now, and am waiting for the PF-9 to become available here. I also have a Taurus PT-145 Pro, which is a great pistol, and inexpensive, but it's still bigger than I want to carry every day, and I find myself turning back to my Kel-Tec for my 'always' gun.

thanks for replying.

I actually prefer lugging something heavier around (I often carry a 12" khukri instead of my Buck 110). I know I'll eventually want something smaller for summer carry, but I'm looking for something that covers all angles to start out with.

Colt46: Start out with a decent .22 revolver
Smith and wesson double actions or even a ruger single action. The .22 is cheap to feed, accurate and will be a good training platform to concentrate on shooting mechanics.
Several thousand rounds of .22 are easy to afford and give you confidence and some semblence of skill to take on a larger caliber weapon.

thanks for replying.

I'm opting not to make my first handgun purchase a .22LR as I do not consider it a self-defense caliber. I know it would probly be best for form, but I think 9mm/.38special is a fine runner-up. I already know I am comfortable shooting them.

ConfuseUs: This should go in the general handguns forum since the OP seems more concerned with handguns.

+1 on starting out with a .22.

If you're looking at the CZ-75 then the Kadet kit is a good investment. In general, I would recommend that you either purchase a .22 first or purchase a centerfire platform with a .22 conversion kit. Your skills with a handgun will be significantly improved by shooting a ratio of about 10-15 rds of .22 for every round of centerfire.

There are several reasons why focusing on .22 improves your skills
First, it doesn't beat you up, so you can focus on the fundamentals better.
Second you can shoot so much that your muscle memory is better.
Third it's cheap. This is overlooked a lot, but lots of times people don't shoot because they have better things to do with the $50 needed to buy a 250 rd value pack of 9mm, never mind range fees, etc.

thanks for replying.

I posted in the General Gun Discussions forum rather than the Handguns: General Discussion forum due to a couple of reasons. I thought I'd get a broader range of information, and 35,023 threads/733,431 posts vs. 7203 threads/162,184 posts.

the Kadet kit is something I could very well invest in down the road if I purchase the CZ 75B ST, but for now I'm not buying a .22LR to start out with. I already know I am comfortable shooting 9mm and .38special, so I'm not worried about forming bad habits.

the firearm I'm looking to purchase will not only be a learning tool, it will also be my home defense and concealed carry. no disrespect to .22LR, but I don't trust it in a defensive scenario.

I do agree with everyone that .22LR is a good bet to start with, but I find it unnecessary.

whitetiger7654: First I think you overlooked the most basic step or maybe I missed it in your post. What is purpose of the gun? Range fun, self defense, home defense, other?

Based on the answer to that you could be on the right track or way off.

thanks for replying.

all applicable. I will be taking it to the range for learning and fun, I will be keeping it by the bed for home defense, and I will be using it for concealed carry.

Jim Watson: My club requires references to try to weed out the weirdos.
We also require NRA membership, it gets us a better rate on insurance and is the largest organization working to protect our right to buy guns.

If you do not have personal acquaintances who will let you shoot on their property, a membership club is the best approach. Better than renting a lane at a commercial range with signs "No holsters" and "No rapid fire."

thanks for replying.

I have nothing against the NRA. plus, I'd probly be one of the folks weeded out.

Zen21Tao: Definitely consider checking out the Sig P239 and P245. They seem to fit many people with small hands perfectly plus they are both single stack designs which are great if you decide you want to start carry concealed (laws of your state permitting). The single stack design adds to comfort when carrying and reduces printing (gun pushing out through clothing).

Also, the P239 .40S&W can be turned into a .357 Sig with just a simple barrel change as they both use the same magazine. 2 guns in one for just the cost of a replacement barrel. As for the P245, it also takes P220 magazines and extended 10 rnd magazines.

thanks for replying.

I have checked them out, actually. I really like them. especially the P239. the P245 seems to be kind of scarce.

coelacanth: just a thought . . . . .
the folks who took you shooting and let you fire all those different weapons and ammo seem like a natural place to start a good relationship with the shooting sports and those of us involved in same. Most shooters are pretty approachable and unless you did all that somewhere besides where you are now it seems they would have a lot of the answers you are seeking. That said I would vote for a good quality .22 LR handgun and/or rifle as they are cheap and easy to shoot and are great for building your skill level quickly. For a defensive weapon/caliber combo I think you would be hard pressed to beat the Springfield XD series in 9mm. Either the 5 inch tactical model or the 4 inch service model would make a good choice in terms of value and practicality. The plus side of the 9mm is the fact that it is probably the least expensive of all centerfire calibers to shoot at this time. If you have no other options re: where to shoot there are some solutions that can keep you shooting pretty much anywhere you are. 1) Wax or rubber bullets powered by a large pistol primer have a very mild report and good accuracy out to about 10 yards. 2) There are snap caps that have a built in laser pointer that flashes when the trigger is pulled showing where the shot would have landed. 3) Airguns are readily available and some of the better ones are phenomenally accurate. They are also very useful for teaching shooting discipline to novice shooters. Hope this was helpful - good luck.

thanks for replying.

stick in the spokes on that one. that family now resides in Arizona. I'm not very good @ making new connections, but I guess I'm going to have to make an effort. I'm hoping I have an "in" with the instructor I'm going to take my NRA handgun class from. he's sort of a friend of a friend. we will see as things play out this summer.

I'm electing not to go with a .22LR handgun, but I am going to be getting my grandfather's .22LR Savage rifle that he's had since he was 12. I'm pretty psyched about that.

I have shot the Springfield XD series. luv them (didn't get to shoot the .45ACP compact model tho). felt a lot better on my hand than the Glock rectangularityness (which is why I've been leaning towards the Glock 36's slightly slimmer grip if I go with a Glock), but I've got some painful joints in my fingers that are easily aggravated. I have to alleviate that problem as I start shooting anyways, right?

would you opt for the 9mm in something like the XD series over the .38special in the S&W Model 60 with 5" barrel?

good suggestions on sharpening skills. snap caps I already have on my list of accessories. I wasn't aware that wax/rubber bullets were available for self-defense firearms. that's pretty cool, since I find 10 yards to be an acceptable practice range. an airgun might be something I can invest in even on top of the firearm I'm looking for. I often see well-received airguns available for surprisingly low prices. they could also be a good alternative to snap caps on nice days when I want to get outdoors without venturing into the wilderness.

I will definitely be taking a strong look @ the XD series. I'm excited about their .45ACP compact version. snap caps will be purchased no matter what I go with and an airgun is something that I didn't even consider, despite reading about their usage in a Combat Handguns magazine not long ago. *shrug* oops!

10 Ring Tao: Stick with the cheapest calibers. 9mm and .22. Your greatest concern at this point is getting used to the mechanics of shooting. That ONLY comes from actually pulling the trigger. Cheaper ammo = more trigger time.

I say 9mm because it is cheap enough to shoot a lot more than the others, and will also serve you just as well as any other self defense caliber when using modern hollowpoints. I started with the basics. I found the cheapest, most reliable guns, chambered in one of the self defense calibers, that was small enough to carry, and that was cheap to shoot. That ended up being a $400 glock 19, and I recommend the same.

I think I've only bought two or three of my couple dozen guns new. Guns made by reputable manufacturers will generally outlast several owners. A perfect example is my first glock, the model 19. Bought it used online. It had some problems feeding that were follower related, so I called up glock. They sent me new followers and springs, no charge.

thanks for replying.

I agree with the caliber cost to range time ratio. that's why I'm looking @ 9mm and .38special. I've only ruled out .22LR since I want the firearm to be Mrs. Everything. after I find her, I will definitely start saving for a .22LR.

what is the price comparison between 9mm and .38special (including +P calibers)? anything major? actually I don't even need to ask. I ought to look that up my damn self. haaa.

do you think the Glock 19 (or any of their models with similar-sized grips) would be friendly towards small hands during extensive shooting? 'cause that's a great vote of confidence. not even the first owner and sending replacement parts free of charge. I, for one, am impressed.

 

[ryan in maine]

Ghost Walker: Interesting post, Ryan! I must say that I’m impressed with your evaluation of the different pistols you’ve tried. The only conclusion I don’t quite agree with is the 44 magnum. The 44 is a dual caliber pistol; it’ll handle either 44 special or 44 magnum. As far as recoil goes, well, that’s something you learn to adjust to. The ability to manage recoil comes over time and improves with increased experience.

(I’m telling you this because the 44 is my all time favorite revolver caliber: very accurate, very flat shooting, and versatile.)

Anyway, because of its size, a 44 might not be for you – especially as a first handgun. I’m perplexed by your intended use for this first pistol. You left this part out of an, otherwise, highly detailed post. What do you want to do with it: learn to shoot, enter a few IDPA matches, or carry around with you all day long?

I’m going to agree with others who’ve recommended, either, the 22 long rifle, or the 9mm chamberings. Personally, I’d take the 9mm as the most universally useful caliber, though. With a 22 LR caliber, you can burn up a lot of ammo, do a lot of plinking, and learn a lot about using a handgun. What you can’t do, however, is rely on it for SD or enter into some of the competition, ‘fun matches’ you might become attracted to as your skills mature.

New shooters, also, need to learn how to manage recoil - to turn it into a, ‘useful tool’ and natural consequence of firing a gun instead of an unpleasant bugaboo to be, either, afraid of or to become confused by. This is an important shooting skill that no 22 caliber firearm is going to be able to instill into your brain and reflexes.

It's important to keep in mind what you intend to do with just one pistol for an extended period of time. After looking over your list, I see a few pistols I simple don’t like. (enough said!) My suggestion would be for you to, also, consider the following Glock Models: G-19, G-17, and G-34. (all uncompensated) Glocks are affordable, easy to maintain, ridiculously easy to repair, and open to significant modifications along with lots and lots of accessories.

These things said, I’ll try to answer your questions from my own perspective of more than 50 years handling and using firearms:

1). Am I on the right track as far as firearms I'm looking @? is there anything else you would recommend I look @ in that sub-$600 (or less) range?

Yes, I’d say that you are. You do need to think about how you’re going to be using this new pistol, though. The principal use will have much to do with what you should choose.

2). Is it a bad idea for a new shooter to buy used? I noticed some of the pricier firearms I eyed were in my price range used, but I realize you can never be totally sure of the work the firearm would require.

Not at all. You do, however, need to know how to examine a used handgun. If this is the way you want to go, then, do a Google search on how to buy a used handgun; and, it would be a plus if you’re able to shoot the gun before buying.

(Between you and me, I personally wouldn’t buy any used Glock that wasn’t a 3rd generation model; and, on a used Glock, check to see if it will feed Gold Dots.)

3). How would I go about finding land to shoot on @ my own convenience? You can never be sure if you're on private land around here.

I’d ask the local police where they shoot; and, if they know of anyplace where you might be able to go. Ask people at gun shops, too. A quick call to the NRA might, also, be a good idea.

4). My pants are all 36" and 38" waists. 36" is my actual size I go to but I have some 38" pants in my dresser in case I move up a weight class. is this sufficient for IWB carry, or will finding a holster be largely trial and error (feel free to recommend a holster for a righty if you recommend a firearm).

Add 2” to your belt size for IWB carry; and, try to purchase a gun belt with a 7 hole tongue rather than a standard 5 hole model. I’d recommend you take a look at either of these belt manufacturers:

http://www.thebeltman.net/

http://rlcompanyusa.stores.yahoo.net/gunbelts1.html

Now that we’re talking about CCW, you should ALWAYS use a holster that pulls the butt of the pistol, tight, into your body. However, at the range you’re NOT going to be either comfortable or safe practicing from an IWB carry rig. For range use you need to pick up an OWB holster – OK!

If you want to know what I do: I use two Blade-Tech holsters, a standard RH, and a standard LH. I wear the LH holster on my RH side as an IWB holster all day long. When I’m at the range. I pull the LH holster from the inside of my gun belt, and replace it with a standard OWB RH rig that is much easier to use for drawing and reholstering.

(Drawing and reholstering a charged pistol are two of the most dangerous things you'll ever do with a handgun; and, NOT practices I recommend for a beginner - Got it!)

5). Does anyone have any gun shop etiquette advice? or any other general advice for a new shooter? Things you think someone should know and you want to pass on to my generation (born in '84) beyond the 4 rules?

Ryan, the, ‘Four Rules’ are everything!

When I taught her how to handle a combat pistol, I made my own wife memorize the Four Rules by heart - by heart! I used to spring quick quizzes on her just to see if she could repeat these 4 rules back to me at anytime of the day. Happily, she could; and, better yet, she also took them very seriously. (Sometimes she'll even remind me if she sees me doing something around the house that she doesn't quite like!)

As an instructor I can tell you that I’ll jump all over a shooter – any shooter – who demonstrates either (1) a lazy trigger finger or (2) poor muzzle control. These are two cardinal gun handling sins that are completely inexcusable! Do anything like this more than once with me; and, I’ll be done with you – Period.

Learn to keep your trigger finger arrow straight! Learn not to place it inside the guard until AFTER you have made a conscious decision to fire the weapon.

Learn to be extremely careful with where you point a muzzle. If you’re unwilling to see something (or someone) destroyed, then, don’t even let the muzzle sweep across them.

It sounds trite; and, sure, we all take it for granted; but, the most common mistake I’ve seen is other people using or firing an, ‘empty gun’. I’ve seen highly experienced gunmen make this serious mistake; so, don’t ever thing that it doesn’t happen or, especially, that it can’t happen to you. I assure you that it CAN!

I’ll give you a fifth rule: Never play with a firearm! (Think about it because lots of people do.)

6). An afterthought, maybe an odd question, but do gun shops (online or otherwise) commonly accept monthly payments?

A few do. You’ll often see this language in their ads or online literature. (Be careful, though, if you default after, say, 4 months of payment you might not get your money back.

One last thing; trust me: Pick up 10 A-Zoom snap caps for whatever new pistol you buy. (You'll be glad that you did!)

thanks for replying.

I've got nothing against the .44mag (only my hands do). I do know it takes .44special but I've never fired that round, unfortunately.

I understand exactly what you're saying about managing recoil improving with experience. all be it a small-scale example, I improved in leaps and bounds in a single day of shooting. recoil management was kind of a dance for me. as the power of your firearm increases, your poise and reflexes must adapt to it and learn the dance. this was most obvious in my transition from .38special to .357mag (a close 2nd was the transition from .40S&W to 10mm). experience is what I'm hounding for right now.

sorry I left out my intentions. a couple other good folks pointed this out as well. I need this first firearm to do everything. it will be what I learn to shoot on, it will be my home defense firearm, and my self-defense firearm for CCW (and as you touch on, might be what I want if I gain interest in competition). this is why my case may be difficult to diagnose and prescribe a cure to.

I already know I can comfortably shoot 9mm, so I have decided to forego the .22LR for now. I have received some good ideas headlined with finding a firearm that takes a .22LR conversion kit. a very good idea that I really hadn't considered (even tho I was aware of the option *shrug*).

managing recoil is something I definitely need experience with, but I think I was doing quite well by the end of the day (I enjoyed shooting the 10mm out of a 1911 platform and out of CZ's Hunter model). I didn't find anything so unpleasant as to find it a turn off except the .44mag, but that was the very last thing I shot, so fatigue could be a factor there.

I have considered the Glocks. perhaps more strongly now based on a couple of replies. the only thing that seems to hinder me from being sold on a Glock is the grip. I don't know how friendly it will be to my smallish hands during extensive practice (I only shot a few hundred rounds of every caliber). this is part of the reason why I was strongly looking @ the Glock 36, but the price of the .45ACP round seems to be ruling that out, based on the replies I've received and searches I've done here on THR. Glock ought to release a Glock 19 with a slimline grip similar to the Glock 36 (or have they?). it would jump right into heavy contention. haaa. you wouldn't think a couple of millimeters would make much difference, but I think it does due to the shaping of the grip (if it were just a little bit curvier I think it would make a big difference). okay, I'm done maundering. Glock's reputation as a quality tool isn't disputed too rabidly, I've noticed. there's got to be something to it, right?

I hadn't even thought to learn how to examine a used handgun. I will definitely get to it. just how many generations of Glocks are there? and is the ability to feed Gold Dots a personal preference or a plain ol' good sign?

to find a place to shoot, I think you might have nailed my best option. that would be asking folks I see @ the local gun shops. I don't have any shooting buddies any more any how. the folks who took me shooting have moved to Arizona to escape our northern Maine winters. haaa. not sure about asking the local PD about where they shoot. it's kind of hit or miss around here on getting a nice LEO who will take some time to talk these things over with a 23 year old in loose-fitting clothing. I have already searched all available sources that the NRA would be able to assist me in finding. I think your "hit the gun shop" idea is spot on.

okay, good on me for keeping the 38" waists I have. lucked out there. I had figured I would need various holsters since I have factored them into my budget. I'm glad to have that confirmed.

I wont jump into drawing/holstering a loaded handgun too soon. promise!

I have the 4 rules memorized already! that was the first bit of confidence I found. I memorized the 4 rules when I was 20. that was the cheapest part of my training (but with the highest resale value, what a deal!).

could you elaborate on "a lazy trigger finger"? is there a difference between a "lazy" trigger finger and a "relaxed" trigger finger? or would a "relaxed" trigger finger be semantics (meaning as in, "see how freaking locked onto my trigger I am? that's relaxed! got it? *wink*")?

I have already learned to keep my finger off the trigger until I'm actually engaging a target. well, I say I have @ least. obviously there is more experience to be had there.

muzzle conciousness is something I can confidently say I've got down b4 I even own my first handgun. I was preached to about it, and took the words beyond religious. haaa. this is one of the reasons I did not want a cross draw holster or shoulder holster. I'm right-handed and I feel most comfortable with my holster right beside that hand.

I will also take the "empty gun" to heart. I promise! I've ready a number of stories on THR about ppl who have made that mistake, sometimes their very selves (and thank you all for the stories, haaa).

I also promise not to play with any firearms. I'm taking this whole experience very seriously in practice. this does bring about another odd question I have tho. I like to sleep with my home defense weapon (I'm single and hate sleeping alone, haaa). currently thi is a 15" khukri and a staff. they are always on the wall side. would you recommend against this with a firearm? I don't see how I'm going to accidentally fire it in my sleep, but I want to take every precaution. should it stay on the nightstand?

now all I have to do is find a shop that takes monthly payments and I could start my purchase within a few weeks. haaa. I haven't found any that do so yet tho, so I'm left to continue saving for now.

snap caps are already in my budget I have written out. I appreciate you mentioning a brand.

antsi: Professional instruction would be a really good idea at this stage. Starting off with good habits is a lot easier than trying to eliminate bad habits later.

Agree with those above who suggest shooting a lot of .22; consider a handgun that has a good .22 conversion kit. 1911 pattern pistols and the CZ 75 both have .22 conversions available.

Carrying full size pistols IWB can be a challenging proposition. Will definitely require a quality belt designed for the purpose. Will probably require that you make at least some changes in your wardrobe. Personally I have never been able to carry IWB comfortably but obviously some people do manage. Smaller, and particularly, thinner pistols could be helpful. If I had to carry IWB, I'd consider a SIG 239 chambered in 9mm but that's just me.

To some extent, there is a conflict between wanting to get a small easily carryable pistol and wanting to get a good learning gun for lots of high-volume shooting practice. Smaller lighter pistols are generally less pleasant to shoot and more difficult to shoot accurately. Larger heavier pistols are generally more pleasant to shoot and easier to shoot accurately.

Not sure what the nature of your objection to joining the NRA is. If you have some kind of political disagreement with the NRA remember that political lobbying is a tiny fraction of the NRA's activities - they are 95% a shooting education and competition marksmanship organization - and the $35 you spend on your regular membership does not go to political lobbying. In fact the NRA itself cannot legally do political lobbying - the political arm of the NRA is the NRA-ILA and they have entirely separate funding. That said, if you value your right to carry, you might want to consider donating to the NRA-ILA.

thanks for replying.

professional instruction is coming up as soon as I purchase a handgun. I have found a single NRA-certified instructor near my town who is luckily a permanent resident.

I would gladly invest in a .22LR conversion kit for the firearm I settle on. it would probly be a better alternative than buying a separate .22LR handgun. the only reason I'm not starting with .22LR is that I don't trust it as a defense caliber, and that is one of my main requirements. I want it to be my practice firearm, my home defense firearm, and my self-defense firearm, y'know? Mrs. Everything.

I have heard concealing full-sized handguns can be challenging, but I'm confident I can manage it, due to my loose-fitting clothing that I favor. I often elect to carry a 12" khukri over my Buck 110 on my belt and to this date only one person ever noticed, and he was an LEO. but that is not in the waistband, obviously. that's a new area for me, but I don't see how concealment will be a problem. comfort sounds like the biggest area of concern for me.

I would consider something like the Sig P239 (and other firearms in that vein) for IWB carry, if I go that route. I agree with you there. slimmer would probly be more comfortable for me, loose-fitting clothing and all.

I'm currently involved in the conflict between small/easy carry vs. large/easy practice. that's why I keep a constant ear to the tracks and listen for smaller firearms that shoot softly and accurately. examples of smaller firearms that I've heard time after time to shoot very comfortably and maintain an impressive degree of accuracy are the Kahr K9, the Para CCW, and the Glock 36 (among a few others).

I didn't mean to give off the impression that I object to joining the NRA. that is not the case @ all. of course I have some political disagreement with the NRA, but that is not what I would base a membership on. I'm also very open to donating to the NRA-ILA and frequent their website.

my objection was to it being a requirement of joining the private range (along with the requirement that someone vouch for you). I'm not a fan of such requirements. I feel an NRA membership should be optional. they claim it is for insurance purposes. a valid claim, but I just can't shake my dislike of requirements being involved in order to exercise my 2nd Amendment rights. in fact, they even have a good deal there, in my opinion. their requirements aren't excessive or anything. they simply require you to be present @ a regular meeting (the 2nd Monday of every month in a heated clubhouse with an airgun range), a $20 per year membership fee, and an NRA membership starting @ $10. all in all, a good deal as far as I'm concerned. after jumping thru their hoops, I'd have access to the heated clubhouse that contains an indoor airgun range, and access to a well maintained outdoor range (which may or may not be the only one within an hour of me, I think there may be one other but I cannot say with any certainty that it is well maintained). other membership benefits involve a monthly newsletter (not sure of its contents but we probly have a pretty good idea) and pretty generous access to military surplus rifles.

but don't worry, by no means would that prevent me from joining in the end. I just have to get over my general dislike of requirements to exercise my 2nd Amendment rights. you'd think we'd all be used to it by now, right? haaa.

thanks again to everyone who took some time out of their day to help me out. I appreciate it immensely and am proud to have THR on my 2nd Amendment family tree.

- Ryan (oh, and sorry for taking a week to reply)

 

[peterotte]

Ryan, Ghost Walker has pretty well said it all as have others.

May I suggest, just as a thought, that you look at a nice, long barreled (6 inch), second hand 22lr target pistol. They range from the rediculous to very normal looking pistols. The thing is, they are great fun to practice a lot with, are easy to aim well and to shoot instinctive if the fit is good. A 22lr revolver is fun to shoot too and can be very accurate but I found reloading a bit of a pain and after a while you will actually want to feel some recoil. Otherwise, the 22lr conversion kit makes a lot of sense. So does starting out with a 9mm.

Good luck and happy shooting! And good on your thorough approach.

 

[antsi]

------quote-------
I just can't shake my dislike of requirements being involved in order to exercise my 2nd Amendment rights
------------------

Well, to be technical, you have a 2nd ammendment right to keep and bear firearms, but you do not have a 2nd ammendment right to shoot them on anyone's private property including this range. The range certainly could not restrict you from owning a gun, carrying a gun, or keeping one at home - but they do have the right to set conditions on your use of their private property.

That said, I am no great fan of having to jump through hoops either - even if the hoop-setters are within their rights to do so

 

[10 Ring Tao]

38 spl will be at least 30% more expensive, and you'll be limited to revolvers. Revolvers are fun, but with the much larger selection of 9mm semiautos, I doubt I'll ever buy one for carry.

9mm over 38spl, no contest.

The single best way to try new stuff is to go shooting with experienced locals.

Find online forums geared toward people in ME.

Here is the state section for those in maine on glocktalk... http://glocktalk.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=142

 

[ryan in maine]

peterotte: Ryan, Ghost Walker has pretty well said it all as have others.

May I suggest, just as a thought, that you look at a nice, long barreled (6 inch), second hand 22lr target pistol. They range from the rediculous to very normal looking pistols. The thing is, they are great fun to practice a lot with, are easy to aim well and to shoot instinctive if the fit is good. A 22lr revolver is fun to shoot too and can be very accurate but I found reloading a bit of a pain and after a while you will actually want to feel some recoil. Otherwise, the 22lr conversion kit makes a lot of sense. So does starting out with a 9mm.

Good luck and happy shooting! And good on your thorough approach.

thanks for replying.

yeah. it seems whatever firearm I end up with, it is going to be in 9mm and I'll also snatch up a .22LR conversion kit.

I agree that .22LR can seem boring after some time. especially when there's a group of folks with you who have brought a long a large sampling of various firearms. haaa.

antsi: Well, to be technical, you have a 2nd ammendment right to keep and bear firearms, but you do not have a 2nd ammendment right to shoot them on anyone's private property including this range. The range certainly could not restrict you from owning a gun, carrying a gun, or keeping one at home - but they do have the right to set conditions on your use of their private property.

That said, I am no great fan of having to jump through hoops either - even if the hoop-setters are within their rights to do so

haaa. yeah. if I want to use the nice range I do have to be respectful of the ownership, staff, and members.

@ this point I think I might just be getting frustrated with the wait. but that's what I've gotta do to make sure I'm prepared when the learning really begins.

10 Ring Tao: 38 spl will be at least 30% more expensive, and you'll be limited to revolvers. Revolvers are fun, but with the much larger selection of 9mm semiautos, I doubt I'll ever buy one for carry.

9mm over 38spl, no contest.

The single best way to try new stuff is to go shooting with experienced locals.

Find online forums geared toward people in ME.

Here is the state section for those in maine on glocktalk... http://glocktalk.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=142

wow! I'm surprised to see the pricing of .38special. I thought it would cost less than the 9mm. plus, you're right, I have noticed the disparity in availability of revolvers vs. their continuously researched and improved upon semi-auto competition. after looking around it seemed to me like S&W was the only company even paying attention to revolvers after seeing their Model 327 TRR8. that's got to be the ultimate home-defense revolver, eh? haaa.

thanks for the link, but they don't often get me anywhere. northern Maine is a bit isolated from the rest of New England. I've never seen a New England gathering closer than 4-5 hours away from me. I know there are @ least two other individuals on THR who live in my county tho. maybe I ought to say hello.

- Ryan

P.S. thanks for sticking with the post. I would've got back to everyone sooner but THR seemed to be down for a few days. no biggie.

 

[mindwip]

Get a browning high power, there great come in .40 and 9mm. Been around for 70 years, Classic lines. And they have a smallish grip. And you can get even thiner combat grips (like the ones on mine), if you need. Easily get one for 600, got mine for 450 used and in great condition. Great website about them
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/ Also the god John Browning made the pistol, thats the guy who made the other somewhat well know pistol 1911.

Link to the highpower club on the thehighroad
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=262087

Also you can search here for "BHP" "browning high power" "high power"

Dont worry if you cant shoot one before you buy. Its good that you know what cal. you want. The CZ 75 feels like the hipower but the hipower is skinnyer, and "flater". I bought mine from here off the sale forums, never fired one before, just held it in a store. And its the best pistol ever. No regrets.

The NRA basic pistol safety course is a good one to take. The sigs are nice and are considered top of the line pistols. In fact there was a post about sigs vs hi-powers and they tied about which one was better. Both great pistols.



Another bonus to hi-powers is the fact that they are thin, this allows for carrying of a full size pistol, in ccw and makeing it easyer to hide then other full size pistols

 

[MrPeter]

There's a lot of long detailed replies here so I won't read them all, I'll just make my recommendation:

Get yourself a CZ 75B if you like it (I'm jealous that you could find a stainless!) in 9mm if you have small hands (I have big ones and like my 40 S&W) and get yourself a Kadet kit as soon as possible. There is no better way to make yourself proficient in shooting your carry gun than actually shooting your carry gun! .22lr is also great at getting you accurate and flinchless without breaking the bank. I know your budget is only 600, but the kadet kit will pay for itself in a couple thousand rounds easy.

Also, if you do get a CZ, be sure to only buy mags from Mec-Gar. I found that out the hard way. You may also want to 'upgrade' the excractor spring. It's a common issue with the .40's, but I'm not sure about the 9mm's.

Welcome to the wonderful world of shooting sports

 

[Bazooka Joe71]

Get a flavor of the CZ 75B and don't look back.

Their well under 600, but worth well over 600.

 

[ryan in maine]

mindwip: Get a browning high power, there great come in .40 and 9mm. Been around for 70 years, Classic lines. And they have a smallish grip. And you can get even thiner combat grips (like the ones on mine), if you need. Easily get one for 600, got mine for 450 used and in great condition. Great website about them
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/ Also the god John Browning made the pistol, thats the guy who made the other somewhat well know pistol 1911.

Link to the highpower club on the thehighroad
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=262087

Also you can search here for "BHP" "browning high power" "high power"

Dont worry if you cant shoot one before you buy. Its good that you know what cal. you want. The CZ 75 feels like the hipower but the hipower is skinnyer, and "flater". I bought mine from here off the sale forums, never fired one before, just held it in a store. And its the best pistol ever. No regrets.

The NRA basic pistol safety course is a good one to take. The sigs are nice and are considered top of the line pistols. In fact there was a post about sigs vs hi-powers and they tied about which one was better. Both great pistols.

Another bonus to hi-powers is the fact that they are thin, this allows for carrying of a full size pistol, in ccw and makeing it easyer to hide then other full size pistols

thanks for replying.

the "somewhat well known 1911", eh? haaa.

I have been intrigued by the BHP for a long time. it was one of the first firearms that I ever came across. I would certainly add it to my list (I am going to try to handle these firearms b4 I buy, and the BHP might be one I can actually get my hands on).

I didn't realize they were a thin firearm until now, either. that's a big bonus, since I am planning on CCWing whatever I end up with.

MrPeter: There's a lot of long detailed replies here so I won't read them all, I'll just make my recommendation:

Get yourself a CZ 75B if you like it (I'm jealous that you could find a stainless!) in 9mm if you have small hands (I have big ones and like my 40 S&W) and get yourself a Kadet kit as soon as possible. There is no better way to make yourself proficient in shooting your carry gun than actually shooting your carry gun! .22lr is also great at getting you accurate and flinchless without breaking the bank. I know your budget is only 600, but the kadet kit will pay for itself in a couple thousand rounds easy.

Also, if you do get a CZ, be sure to only buy mags from Mec-Gar. I found that out the hard way. You may also want to 'upgrade' the excractor spring. It's a common issue with the .40's, but I'm not sure about the 9mm's.

Welcome to the wonderful world of shooting sports

thanks for replying (and the welcome).

I don't know if I'll regret this, but I'll share my source for the CZ 75B ST (this could come back to bite me in the ass when I go to order one and they're all sold out, but hey what are y'gonna do?). source = Bud's Gun Shop.

Mec-Gar sounds familiar. I will look them up and make sure to keep the info nearby.

I don't think I'll worry about the springs. I'm 90% certain I'm going with 9mm.

Bazooka Joe71: Get a flavor of the CZ 75B and don't look back.

Their well under 600, but worth well over 600.

thanks for replying.

that is the big clincher for me. I have heard constant praise for CZ's price to product ratio. and I also really like the look of the 75B in stainless. being able to add a .22LR kit is the cherry on top.

my short list is looking like nnn, CZ 75B ST, Glock 19, Browning High Power, Springfield XD9.

which brings me to a question someone may be able to answer without me having to contact Springfield... can you get the 9mm in the compact frame? it seems that only the .45ACP is available in the compact frame.

- Ryan

 

[mindwip]

There is a review between the CZ and hi-power on that sight i linked to, but here is the direct link

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/CZ-75 or BHP.htm

ps there both great guns. Cant go wrong either way, pick the one that fits you and looks the best. Also remember there are MANY after market grips out there.

Mods done to my Hi-power before i bought it, new trigger a "wider combat trigger", a stronger main spring, also the new trigger got rid of the mag safty at the same time (i love the feel of my trigger). I also have thin wood grips but they were too thin for my hands so i just bought some Hogue rubber ones that are thicker then the wood and i love them. Basicly all the mods i wanted to do to the hi-power were done for me, i lucked out. The only thing i may do next is night sights, but i have no real need for them.

+1 to the mec-gar mags only buy them they are great, they make factory mags for lots of gun manufacturers. They sell the factory ones with the factorys name stamped on them for $40 ish but you can buy the ones they make that just say mec-gar stamped on them, they sell for $19 ish. THeres nothing different but the name stamped on them.