Is it impolite to point a gun with your hand over the muzzle?

[rainbowbob]

...its about being in a gun store with guns that have been checked and checked again most likely.. and stored unloaded...that is my point no ad's have ever ever ever occurred with a unloaded gun...

That makes me wonder...Anybody know if any AD/NDs have ever occurred in a gun store?

Based on the above rational - that would be impossible.

I trust myself with an unloaded weapon and I am willing to risk looking down the barrel of a firearm under my control that I personally have certified as unloaded.

Putting your hand over the barrel only indicates that YOU believe it is unloaded. Unless I'VE cleared the weapon - I don't know it is unloaded.

So the answer is yes - it would bother me if you pointed a firearm at me in a gun store (or anywhere else).

Period.

That's was the question...wasn't it?

 

[benEzra]

If it was a .22LR I wouldn't be too worried, the hand might just stop it.

No, the only thing your hand might stop is a load of mouse shot from a .22 shotshell. Any .22 bullet will go right through your hand and deep into someone else's body.

I generally "point" the gun at the floor and would advise others to do the same. But in the course of fondling said firearm at the counter should it "face" in someone's direction, I don't believe they are in the right to get upset about it.

I will get upset about it. If someone is so uncoordinated as to be unable to point a gun at the ceiling, the floor, or a masonry wall while examining it, then I am hardly going to trust their chamber-checking competence with my life.

Point it at your own head or torso if you want, but don't sweep me with it.

 

[feudalson]

in crowded gunshops and shows... craps happens ppl get swept and guns get pointed if you would get upset...

I will get upset about it. If someone is so uncoordinated as to be unable to point a gun at the ceiling, the floor, or a masonry wall while examining it, then I am hardly going to trust their chamber-checking competence with my life.

Point it at your own head or torso if you want, but don't sweep me with it.

i suggest you stick to small shops that dont get to crowded

 

[Slamfire]

That makes me wonder...Anybody know if any AD/NDs have ever occurred in a gun store?

You would not believe the stupid customers that come in gunstores. One gunstore told me of an irate customer that came in. Let’s name the customer Estupido.

Estupido had purchased a rifle, took it out in cold weather, and the rifle would not fire. (Seems the mainspring recess was filled with grease). To prove the rifle was at fault Estupido racked the bolt, chambered a round, and pulled the trigger before anyone could grab the rifle! Incidentally, the gun shop used its second floor for offices.

Luckily the rifle did not discharge, but just imagine who upstairs might have been killed if Estupido’s gun had functioned?

 

[Atticum]

You might have checked it, but I might have not.

Until everyone in the store knows 100% for certain that the weapon is not loaded it is at the very least impolite to sweep someone with it.

 

[3pairs12]

I simply can't believe how many people in this thread have either forgot or don't know the 4 rules. There are thousands of stories where somebody gets shot by a gun believed to be unloaded. Actiom open cylnder open is one thing, but for God's sake people all this well you have been to a gun show crap is getting old. People do dumb shart all of the time that doesn't make it excusable. All the guy has to do is ask for people to step back so he can check the gun out properly or wait until its less crowded. I f he really has an interest in the gun he has plenty of time to put safety first.

 

[Justin]

its not personal zak... i dont know you and no disrespect ment dont care what you think on any matter so far... would i listen to you about 3 guns tactics and training.. yes i would and probaly write down every word... my main and only true arguement here was that everything in life is relative... unloaded guns dont kill ppl... and the rules are bent when enough ppl get together and deem it okay... i would love to compete in 3 gun and plan too but as of right now im a gun type short lol

You are absolutely, unequivocally wrong. As Zak has already pointed out, the four rules do not get violated at any properly-run practical shooting competition.

In fact any violation of those safety rules, inadvertent or deliberate, will result in the immediate disqualification of the competitor from the match. Pack up your gear, go home, and no refund on your match fee. As you might imagine, at a local match where the fee is probably $10-$15, that kind of stings (on top of the blow to one's pride.) At the large matches, where competitors are not only paying hundreds of dollars in match fees, but also for transportation, room and board, and vacation time off of work, a safety violation can end up costing hundreds of dollars.

in crowded gunshops and shows... craps happens ppl get swept and guns get pointed if you would get upset...

Not in one that's professionally run. I go to great lengths to avoid sweeping other people or myself with a firearm, doesn't matter if I'm the only person in the room, or standing in the middle of a gun show with a crowd of hundreds. If you hand me a weapon, I chamber check it.

Frankly, its quite clear you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[feudalson]

i was stateing that running around at a 3 gun course is dangerous... plain and simple... im fine with it and also as stated would like to compete... talk about dqs all you want running around a obstacle course with loaded and chambered weapons is not safe by 4 rule standards

 

[ArmedBear]

talk about dqs all you want running around a obstacle course with loaded and chambered weapons is not safe by 4 rule standards

Exactly.

WRT "politeness" I'd say, no, it's not polite. In order to be truly polite, you'd need to block the muzzle with your testicles.

I still avoid ever pointing a gun at a gun shop, even open, at anyone. But it's also ridiculous to believe that it's possible to handle a gun indoors and not point it at anything.

You have to prioritize.

What if the checked gun actually were loaded? What if it did go off? In that case, what would you rather hit with a stray round? A person, or a shelf.

 

[Justin]

i was stateing that running around at a 3 gun course is dangerous... plain and simple... im fine with it and also as stated would like to compete... talk about dqs all you want running around a obstacle course with loaded and chambered weapons is not safe by 4 rule standards

How many 3 gun matches have you competed in again?

While running a course of fire at a 3 gun match is a dynamic event with certain inherent risks, those risks are quite plainly minimized by requiring that all competitors abide by the four rules of gun safety. Safety officers often go to great lengths to explain where there are possible safety issues including targets near the 180 or places where one might stumble.

 

[feudalson]

im guessing you like zac also run 3 gun... face it buddy loaded guns,, obstacal course ,, spectators.. not 100% safe... so in violation of the 4 rules... but also i must say again ... i personally would love to compete in 3 gun... and plan too... and unless i stated something that doesnt happen at 3 gun comps.. then what exactly do i frankly not know about... is there not classic running and gunning at 3 gun comps.. with loaded guns... with spectators

 

[ArmedBear]

While running a course of fire at a 3 gun match is a dynamic event with certain inherent risks, those risks are quite plainly minimized by requiring that all competitors abide by the four rules of gun safety.

I was unaware that ADs caused by dropped loaded autoloading rifles had any place in the four rules.

As I recall, it was one of you, or maybe both, who supported the idiot who said he'd shoot someone for having an open, empty O/U on his shoulder at a skeet range.

I understand that 3-gun range rules minimize the inherent danger, as well they must. "Minimize" sure doesn't mean "eliminate."

Gun shop safety is, of course, a whole different ball of wax.

 

[feudalson]

so your saying a unloaded gun in a gun shop is possibly more dangerous than a gun and runner at a 3 gun comp ... .. your basically proving my point... you deem 3 gun ok because you want it to be ok.. but by 4 rule standard its not... period.. and you convince yourself it is because you want to .... your minimized risk iside a 3 gun comp are no different than the minimizing risk of checking if a gun is loaded or unloaded at a gun show or shop... and again i am in no way bashing 3 gun

 

[feudalson]

get em bear

 

[Justin]

im guessing you like zac also run 3 gun... face it buddy loaded guns,, obstacal course ,, spectators.. not 100% safe... so in violation of the 4 rules... but also i must say again ... i personally would love to compete in 3 gun... and plan too... and unless i stated something that doesnt happen at 3 gun comps.. then what exactly do i frankly not know about... is there not classic running and gunning at 3 gun comps.. with loaded guns... with spectators

Yes. I compete in USPSA as well as multigun matches. I've had the distinct pleasure of not only competing with Zak, but acting as a Safety Officer at one of the matches he sponsored.

You don't seem to understand that the people who run practical shooting matches go to great lengths to ensure that safe procedures are followed, including the four basic rules of gun safety. For you to blithely state that just because a competitor is moving through a course of fire there will therefore be violations of the four rules is patently idiotic.

I was unaware that ADs caused by dropped loaded autoloading rifles had any place in the four rules.

Of course they do. The four rules are in place so that in the event of an AD/ND, no one will be hurt.

 

[Sam1911]

you deem 3 gun ok because you want it to be ok.. but by 4 rule standard its not... period

This statement is fundamentally and entirely WRONG.

Break any one of the four rules in USPSA, IPSC, or IDPA and you're OUT, IMMEDIATELY.



Gun shop, range, home, or the street, safety is the same. Arguing against it is just bizarre.

-Sam

 

[Justin]

so your saying a unloaded gun in a gun shop is possibly more dangerous than a gun and runner at a 3 gun comp ... ..

No. I'm saying that when I handle a firearm, physically loaded or not, I do my absolute best to abide by the four rules of gun safety. They apply whether I'm looking at a firearm at a gun store, or charging through a course of fire at a practical shooting match.

your basically proving my point... you deem 3 gun ok because you want it to be ok.. but by 4 rule standard its not... period.. and you convince yourself it is because you want to .... your minimized risk iside a 3 gun comp are no different than the minimizing risk of checking if a gun is loaded or unloaded at a gun show or shop... and again i am in no way bashing 3 gun

RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED

RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY

RULE III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET

RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET

Which of those rules would I be violating by moving through a course of fire and engaging multiple targets?

 

[feudalson]

your running around with and firing a loaded gun... please feel free to justify this within the 4 rules are you beyond reason... do you not get it... this is simple stuff

 

[Justin]

your running around with and firing a loaded gun... please feel free to justify this within the 4 rules are you beyond reason... do you not get it... this is simple stuff

Which rule is being violated by doing this?

Rule 1?
Rule 2?
Rule 3?
Rule 4?

If, as you claim, practical shooting competitions naturally involve violating the four rules it should be extremely easy for you to name which rule(s) are being violated.

 

[Sam1911]

I was unaware that ADs caused by dropped loaded autoloading rifles had any place in the four rules.

Well, that's an awfully dumb statement. (Meaning no disrespect, of course.)

Dropping ANY loaded gun is grossly breaking the rules. AD is grossly breaking the rules.

EITHER will get you tossed immediately from a competition, but if the remaining rules are being followed, that's the extent of the damage. That's WHY there are FOUR (or more). Redundancy in safety gives you layers of safety so that you're still protected when you manage to break one.

It feels surreal to have to argue for safety -- HERE of all places!

-Sam

 

[rswartsell]

I cannot for the life of me understand the motivation of supposed "gun people" coming on an open forum and doggedly arguing against the strictest possible application of the safest possible practices.

There are a bunch of people who for their own reasons delight in seeing this. If you really are a "gun person" these people want to disarm you. You give them a pretty fair argument when you proceed down the slippery slope of rewriting the accumulated wisdom and experience of those who have gone before and have "seen the elephant".

The nature of the danger inherent in handling firearms is lightning fast, unforgiving in the extreme and irreversible in potential effect. Because of this the strict adherence to the 4 rules is generally accepted in this community as a minimum for claiming responsible gun ownership and handling. The High Road is dedicated to responsible gun ownership.

IF INDEED it is not possible as you seem to argue to be in perfect adherence with these rules, the issue immediately becomes getting as close as humanly possible. Not creating justification for some other course.

Should you examine your motivation for being a High Road member? Are you in the right place? I'm not trying to answer these questions for anyone else, just suggesting that self examination on these points might be profitable.

 

[Funderb]

To the moderators,

please stop. You guys are moderators because you are level and good at moderating. Right now, this has devolved into a stupid pissing contest, full of personal insults. Don't pretend like you aren't contributing.

To everyone else:

A question was asked and opinions were given, there was a disagreement, oh well. Lets agree to disagree. There is not a lot else we can do in this world.

 

[Justin]

EITHER will get you tossed immediately from a competition, but if the remaining rules are being followed, that's the extent of the damage. That's WHY there are FOUR (or more). Redundancy in safety gives you layers of safety so that you're still protected when you manage to break one.

Sam, I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[feudalson]

well this sir is gettin old... as ive stated please dont interpate this as an attack on 3 gun or multigun comps.... and im not argueing against safety im just saying a unloaded gun is a unloaded gun... and to get upset because someone sweeps you at a gunshop or show is idiotic .... given the 4 listed here 3 gun and multigun is fine... but im pretty sure do not run with loaded and charged weapons in or around crowds is kinda a common sense rule .... and honestly i thank if you were outside of a combat condition to folllow even the listed 4 rules rule no1 stating treat all guns as loaded would involve not running and gunning with them where mistakes may cause injuries for sport... but hey maybe not...

 

[Justin]

A question was asked and opinions were given, there was a disagreement, oh well. Lets agree to disagree. There is not a lot else we can do in this world.

This isn't a matter of arguing over whether strawberry ice cream is better than chocolate. It is a topic that quite literally deals with actions that can have life and death consequences. There is no room to "agree to disagree" when it comes to gun safety. Either one abides by the fundamental rules of safe gun handling, or they don't. In the event that they are not abiding by those rules, such people are not only a danger to themselves, but those around them, and the perception of gun owners as safe among the general public.