Is it impolite to point a gun with your hand over the muzzle?

[Sharps-shooter]

I think that's awful. Not only do I not want you to point a gun at me, but I especially don't want you to put your hand in front of the muzzle.

If it goes off, you'll get blood and bone fragments into my wound, and soon after getting out of the hospital for the gunshot I'll find out I have whatever hideous disease you might be carrying around.

It's like sweeping me with a gun and a biological weapon at the same time. Maybe it's not loaded, but maybe it is.

 

[Zak Smith]

The standard 4 gun safety rules are a system which both reinforces safe habits and helps to ensure nobody gets shot even if one (or sometimes more) of them are broken. This doesn't mean it's "OK" to violate them: it means some redundancy is built into the system.

 

[PT1911]

kevin dunn shot his 12 year old son while cleaning an "unloaded" gun... the boy died...etc... not really necessary to bring up here, but does show the consequences of poor decisions...

 

[feudalson]

and i think zac is probaly a great shooter... i personally am not doubting anyones efficency with a gun,, im just disagreeing with this particular point...

 

[rbernie]

You're just as bad as the antis that think guns will kill everyone based on a few news articles

You may believe that. You are entitled to any belief that you want.

I feel compelled to point out that I have never stated that guns should be banned or restricted. I have stated that people that hold guns in their hand should do so within the context of The Four Rules.

Always.

You can delude yourself into believing that somehow placing your hand in front of the muzzle magically makes those rules null and void, but frankly that's simply irrational.

And as an aside, I know a lot of people who live by a simple notion - point a gun at me and I'll point a gun at you.

kevin dunn shot his 12 year old son while cleaning an "unloaded" gun... the boy died...etc... not really necessary to bring up here,

It absolutely *IS* necessary to bring that up here. Do you think that Kevin Dunn wanted to shoot his kid? Of course not. Do you think that he thought for a second that the gun was loaded? Of course not.

Yet somehow, it was. And because he failed to observe the Four Rules, he killed his own kid. I cannot IMAGINE that kind of mental trauma, and I hope that I never do. It's beyond horrible.

That's what happens when you get sloppy with guns.

Don't get sloppy.

 

[feudalson]

thats a truley sad story and its terriable that things happen like that ... but nobody has ever been killed or shot by an unloaded gun.. this forum isnt about just picking a gun up and swinging it around its about being in a gun store with guns that have been checked and checked again most likely.. and stored unloaded... that is my point no ad's have ever ever ever occured with a unloaded gun

 

[benEzra]

i dont know who kevin dunn is but regruardless if he was killed or shot with a LOADED gun... then he and his misfortuntion have no bearing on this conversation

No, he was shot and killed with an "unloaded" gun, just like most victims of accidental shootings.

If you point a gun you think is loaded at someone and pull the trigger, it's murder. Accidental shootings usually involve guns that are "unloaded," except they turn out not to be sometimes.

No, guns are not too dangerous to be handled. They should, however, be treated with respect, and sweeping other people with the muzzle of a gun with the action closed is offensive, hand in front of the muzzle or not.

 

[PT1911]

3,2,1.... this is about to get worse...

 

[BigBlock]

I have pointed out that people that hold guns in their hand should do so within the context of The Four Rules

Just so I'm clear - are the gun "experts" here recommending that we never clean or check our weapons?

 

[feudalson]

he shot his kid because he didnt check the firearm before cleaning it.. not because he did and magically the impossible happened..

 

[feudalson]

ok people lets get one thing straite as a simple brutally honest fact... a fact ... a unloaded gun cannot fire any projectile because... and heres the kicker.... there is no projectile..
so no bullets bullets no bang bang pretty simple really...

 

[PT1911]

abide by my postings and you will be fine Bigblock... to answer your original question.. yes, it is impolite to point a gun at someone with or without your hand over the muzzle.. the more they know about guns, the more seriously they will take that particular action..

 

[Zak Smith]

this forum isnt about just picking a gun up and swinging it around its about being in a gun store with guns that have been checked and checked again most likely.. and stored unloaded.

Let me relate a story. It's about a high-volume gunshop, with a lot of people who should have known better. A manufacturer (who is local) walks in with a .338LM semi-auto rifle (that he makes). Several employees handle the rifle, and eventually it is handed to one of my shooting partners who works there. Well, he racks it and out flies a loaded .338 Lapua round. He is an intimidating guy already but reads everyone the riot act and the manufacturer leaves with his tail between his legs.

Complacency is bred by having guns you "know" are unloaded, and sit in a case, then are handed to a customer, put back in the case, etc. This is why we have four rules, to develop habits which are not broken for "convenience."

ETA:

There was also a local gunsmith (at another shop) who shot himself in the stomach with a .25-06, which was in his shop for work. The rifle was in some state of disassembly, I believe, at the time.

 

[benEzra]

he shot his kid because he didnt check the firearm before cleaning it.. not because he did and magically the impossible happened..

Many people have been shot by "unloaded" firearms that have been checked. Because people are not perfect all the time, and that "checked" firearm may in fact have a round in the chamber that you (or the guy who handed it to you) missed.

But if you want to point that checked gun at yourself, fine; it's your body. Just don't sweep me with it, because I didn't personally check it and I wouldn't point it at my torso or head even if I had. The original question was about sweeping others with the muzzle, not oneself.

Just so I'm clear - the gun "experts" here are recommending that we never clean or check our weapons?

No, just don't let the muzzle sweep anybody else, whether or not a hand is over the muzzle.

I do believe that it is a bad idea to clean or check a weapon with the action closed and the muzzle pointed at your or someone else's vital organs, but again, if you want to point a functional, closed-action pistol at your own head or heart, fine. Just don't point it at me.

 

[rbernie]

Just so I'm clear - are the gun "experts" here recommending that we never clean or check our weapons?

Only if your idea of checking or cleaning them has you not opening the action and then pointing the gun at someone else or yourself. That *is* the scenario you presented in your original post, and that is what we are objecting to. Do not do THAT SPECIFIC THING, and you'll be OK standing next to me at a gun store.

I do not grasp why that notion is so hard to understand or so onerous to implement.

 

[feudalson]

its like saying someon drove a car from florida to califronia with no gas... its not possible ... its that simple...

 

[FlyinBryan]

i dont like guns pointed at me when someone is looking at one.

of course it happens. like when someone is beside you and you just let it sit in your hand, palms up, with it pointed sideways, your gonna sweep folks with it.

what makes it different is when you are holding the gun as if you were going to fire it. i.e. by the grip.

you can look a pistol over pretty good without holding by the grip like you would if you were gonna fire it.

when you want to see what it feels like in your hand, you point it at the floor between your feet, or straight ahead at the display behind the counter. thats what i do, and if i see someone on the way to pass in front of the muzzle, i point it straight up till they cross by.

i make a vrey consertive effort not to sweep anyone, and certainly not point it at anyone.

 

[feudalson]

you ppl are beyound reasoning im not saying that its good to go swinging a gun around the local gun shop for any reason.. im just stating that a unloaded firearm has never killed anyone.. maybe a LOADED firearm that someon didnt check properly... if this thread was titled hey would it be impolite to point a gun at someone with my hand over the barrel that i think is unloaded? then i would see the reasoning but since its not i dont

 

[benEzra]

if this thread was titled hey would it be impolite to point a gun at someone with my hand over the barrel that i think is unloaded? then i would see the reasoning but since its not i dont

That was, indeed, the original question:

Is it impolite to point a gun with your hand over the muzzle?

As with most, my local gun shop is pretty small and gettting more and more crowded. It's hard to really look a firearm over well without accidently pointing it at someone. So, generally, if I'm looking at a revolver, I keep my hand over the muzzle.

Would you be offended if I accidently pointed that at you?

And the overwhelming answer is yes, that is offensive.

im just stating that a unloaded firearm has never killed anyone.. maybe a LOADED firearm that someon didnt check properly...

If I don't know you well enough to trust my life to your competence, I am not going to take your word for it that "you checked and it's unloaded." Making that presumption is part of why it's considered rude, IMO.

The fact that one thinks a firearm is unloaded does not excuse careless or inconsiderate handling of the firearm. If a gun is in your hand, don't sweep me with it, period. Even if you would bet your own or your child's life on it not being loaded, don't presume to point it at me.

 

[feudalson]

hmmm i think i changed the thread title in my head as the debate progressed haha... i concede to ben ezra.

 

[feudalson]

on everything except the unloaded has killed ppl point... fact wise... not theory of compitance.., anyways good debate...

 

[Hungry Seagull]

I work hard to practice Muzzle confinement and cannot stand to consider the implications of having to deal with a gunshot compounded by body parts and fluids from the shooter inside my own system to boot.

No point gun at anyone, if you cannot find room in that store to properly examine the weapon YOUR way with lots of room around you, put 100 dollars to hold that partiuclar weapon, go away and come back Tuesday am when no one is in the store except staff and try it again.

I wont post anymore here, it's bad enough the pointing, even worse when presumtion is made hand over muzzle some how repeals a commandment paid in blood and lives about gun safety.

 

[Gryffydd]

A lot of the posts in this thread that adhere to the majority opinion (which I by and large agree with) keep mentioning the condition "With the action closed" or similar. Are you saying you would feel different if the slide were locked back or the Cylinder swung out (DA) or removed (SA only), or the bolt were removed etc?

 

[feudalson]

i dont care either way for the most part but i do think to the average person the bolt out and the cylinder open would change the position i could see how one would agrue the slide could fall to battery and cause a discharge

 

[Zak Smith]

Gryffydd,

I do not feel differently in that situation, for the scenario in the first post. A gun in the hand should be treated as if loaded and not pointed at anything you are willing to destroy, even if the action is open. The benefits of this are:

1. it reinforces safe habits

2. it allows for safe failure of two other of the 4 rules (finger off trigger and treat as if loaded) without having someone get shot, e.g. in the example where the action closed on its own but the finger was on trigger and it wasn't unloaded (it is not too uncommon for the slide/bolt on AR-15's or some semi-auto pistols to fall when jarred -- and there are plenty of designs where it's hard for an onlooker to see the breech).

With regard to the bolt removed: posters have rightly pointed out that at some point someone will have to on the muzzle end of a barrel or rifle. If the firearm is substantially disassembled to the level that major parts necessary to ignite a round are not present (such as the slide, bolt carrier group, etc), it can be considered to be an inert part. In the case when others cannot visually discern than those parts are absent (like an AR-15 reassemble with no bolt/BCG), it should be treated like a fully-assembled firearm.

Gun safety is everyone's responsibility. We have the responsibility to handle guns safely ourselves and we have the responsibility to make sure others are safe as well. Part of both of those is behavior that allows others to see we are safe (like the no-BCG AR-15 example in the last paragraph).

When I see someone put their hand in front of the barrel on a pistol, I see someone who is unsafe: unsafe to a level where he is willing to put even himself at risk. This sets off red flags that he is probably about to put others at risk as well.