I'm Nothing Without You: Help guide a new shooter?

[ryan in maine]

thanks for pointing out that review.

sounds like the BHP is a real investment. especially with its history.

and to add another question to the discussion, I want to give my hand measurements and ask if the ergonomics of most handguns would likely (I know you can't say for certain) do me aright. I only know that sometimes my gloves need to be purchased in a small rather than a medium, and I've been told that a handgun is actually made to fit your hand better than "like a glove".

palm: 3.5" x 3.5"
thumb = 2.25"
index = 2.75"
middle = 3.10"
ring = 2.90"
pinky = 2.25"

so, yeah. summary of my remaining questions:
1). can you get the Springfield XD9 with the compact frame?
2). should most firearms fit my hands considering the measurements I provided?

- Ryan

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Re: CZ 75 and similar

Ryan,

I've been doing some serious CCW shopping lately, and I've come down to a couple of pistols that, for me, are just about right.

I also have small-ish hands, along with onset of arthritis, which affects both my grip and recoil tolerance.

I can shoot both 9mm and .40S&W but I tend to favor the 9mm for many of the same reasons you do.

My search led me to the Taurus PT911 and the CZ P-01 pistols. They are very nearly the same size, varying by only a couple of tenths of an inch. The PT911 mag capacity is 15 rounds, while the CZ P-01 is 14 rounds. The weights are within an ounce or two of one another.

They are both compact format. The CZ P-01 is noticeably smaller than the CZ 75B. They both have frame-mounted safeties.

Edit: It should be noted that both the P-01 and the PT911 have double-action, self resetting triggers. This means they can be carried loaded and chambered with hammer de-cocked, and the first shot will be double-action. The self-resetting trigger offers the additional benefit of a "second chance" strike on a round that misfires.

I find when I do a "blind draw" (pistol at your side, eyes closed, raise pistol to a pointing position with one or both hands, open eyes) the sights on the Taurus line up more naturally. The CZ is good, too, but the Taurus sights faster. (The PT911 has a larger dot on its front sight.)

They are both comfortable in my hand.

The beavertail on the CZ is better, and keeps the hand below the slide and hammer. The PT911 has a less pronounced tail, but doesn't seem to me like it would be "bite prone."

I will probably get both.

I was initially told that the PT911 was discontinued, but the primary supplier for FFLs here (RSR, Texas) says they are current production and they have a handful in stock.

The PT911 is maybe $60 cheaper, but it's not cheaply made.

The CZ P-01 is quality all the way. (If I'm patient, I think the wife will buy that for me, as she really likes the aesthetics. Go figure.)

If you're really fond of the CZ 75B, and you want to carry concealed, may I suggest you look at the CZ P-01. It is actually designed for concealed carry.

It's got really good genes, good carry characteristics, good availabilty, and shoots the least expensive centerfire ammo out there.

You might also look at the PT911. It's also designed for carry, you can see hints of the BHP and Beretta 92 in its lines, and even though the grips look a little odd, it's very comfortable in the hand. Very smooth action. I mean, really.

So, just to keep you off balance, there are two new candidates for you.

Here's the Taurus:

​

And here's the CZ:

Gorgeous, no?

 

[mindwip]

Its hard to match up measurements to a pistol that will fit you for 2 reasons,

1).There are different grips that change the size AND shape of how your hand will wrap around the pistol, not only after market but factory too. Of course there is some common sense here, pistols with know big grips may not be to your liking just med/small ones.

2). Just because the pistol fits your measurements you may not like it, being do to weight distribution, and personal "likeness" of different grips.

I am 21 yr 6ft 145lb shooting for about 9 months, and take large gloves, I have long skinny fingers.

For example i really like pistols with a smaller grip, this allows my hands to fully engulf the pistol. The only bad thing about this is if i am not careful it puts my trigger finger to far in the pistol resulting in a bad trigger pull.

There are two ways to correct this. Mentally move my finger to its proper place each time i place my finger on the trigger, till muscle memory sets in, or get bigger grips. On my Hi-power this was my problem i was forgetting to place my finger in the proper spot. This gave me groups about 1-2inchs off center. The groups them selfs were great, anywhere from less then 1 inch to 3 inches at 15 yards. So i bought bigger grips to help me move to the center, and not have to think about finger placement. Which has worked. Once my finger (muscle memory) knows where it should go on the trigger, with out me thinking i am going to try the smaller grips again. Hoping the finger remembers its place and with me helping. I swear it has a mind of its own.

Just my 2cents on that area, CZ P-01 and the Sig 229/239 are great pistols and smaller CCWs.

The Sig 229 is a compact and highcapacity. pistol 13rds of 9mm.

 

[10 Ring Tao]

Do yourself a favor, and if you think you'll be carrying this gun, don't get a single action or other gun that requires a safety to be disengaged when drawing.

My advanced CCW class was thus:

2/3 glocks, DAO, or DA/SA autos.
1/3 1911s.

That 1/3 of the class experienced 95% of the problems that day. Mostly function failures (FTF FTE stovepipe etc), and forgetting to flip the safety when drawing.

Stick with a pure point and click interface.

 

[Dark_Harvest]

i'll be quick and honest with you.

you want a Glock 19, and a Smith & Wesson 642.

The Glock 19 is pretty much the paramount of the last 300 years of handgun development wrapped into one amazing little piece. i typically wear a "medium" size glove, and the 19 is an absolutely perfect fit for me. if it's big for you, you can easily have a grip reduction performed by a few different people, no shortage of choices there. that covers your "full size piece" requirements, as i've never seen a G19 not perform at 100%. (if you do, send it to me, i'll get it fixed!!!)

the S&W 642 is just about the best hide-a-way piece out there. i actually do own a Bersa Thunder 380, and do trust it, but the smith is more easily available (typically), so we'll stick with that... very light, and the +p rounds will pretty much cover any of your daily needs...

I think that these two options will serve you well. You will end up wanting to add to this collection, just so you know, but you can take your time, and determine your needs... just evaluate what you will need, and take your time making decisions. Research is key, as is personal range time.

I can only suggest, obviously. It's up to you to make the final decision as to what will work for you...

Good luck, and definitely remember to factor in training cost!!!!

it's more than worth it!!!!
b

 

[ryan in maine]

ArfinGreebly: Ryan,

I've been doing some serious CCW shopping lately, and I've come down to a couple of pistols that, for me, are just about right.

I also have small-ish hands, along with onset of arthritis, which affects both my grip and recoil tolerance.

I can shoot both 9mm and .40S&W but I tend to favor the 9mm for many of the same reasons you do.

My search led me to the Taurus PT911 and the CZ P-01 pistols. They are very nearly the same size, varying by only a couple of tenths of an inch. The PT911 mag capacity is 15 rounds, while the CZ P-01 is 14 rounds. The weights are within an ounce or two of one another.

They are both compact format. The CZ P-01 is noticeably smaller than the CZ 75B. They both have frame-mounted safeties.

Edit: It should be noted that both the P-01 and the PT911 have double-action, self resetting triggers. This means they can be carried loaded and chambered with hammer de-cocked, and the first shot will be double-action. The self-resetting trigger offers the additional benefit of a "second chance" strike on a round that misfires.

I find when I do a "blind draw" (pistol at your side, eyes closed, raise pistol to a pointing position with one or both hands, open eyes) the sights on the Taurus line up more naturally. The CZ is good, too, but the Taurus sights faster. (The PT911 has a larger dot on its front sight.)

They are both comfortable in my hand.

The beavertail on the CZ is better, and keeps the hand below the slide and hammer. The PT911 has a less pronounced tail, but doesn't seem to me like it would be "bite prone."

I will probably get both.

I was initially told that the PT911 was discontinued, but the primary supplier for FFLs here (RSR, Texas) says they are current production and they have a handful in stock.

The PT911 is maybe $60 cheaper, but it's not cheaply made.

The CZ P-01 is quality all the way. (If I'm patient, I think the wife will buy that for me, as she really likes the aesthetics. Go figure.)

If you're really fond of the CZ 75B, and you want to carry concealed, may I suggest you look at the CZ P-01. It is actually designed for concealed carry.

It's got really good genes, good carry characteristics, good availabilty, and shoots the least expensive centerfire ammo out there.

You might also look at the PT911. It's also designed for carry, you can see hints of the BHP and Beretta 92 in its lines, and even though the grips look a little odd, it's very comfortable in the hand. Very smooth action. I mean, really.

So, just to keep you off balance, there are two new candidates for you.

Here's the Taurus:

And here's the CZ:

Gorgeous, no?

thanks for replying.

I really do like that CZ P 01. I came across it on their website when looking @ their 75B models, so it's not quite a new candidate (tho I did not look @ it in the manner I am now). I really wonder what all these new manufacturing standards are tho. it notes improved metallurgy and quality control. also mentions the Czech LEO's will be replacing the 75B with them. also worthy of note is the P 01 is NATO approved.

I think it's a real beaut', and I thought it was cool that you can purchase it with the laser grips direct from CZ (seems like a new thing for them). not sure of the cost difference between buying them installed by CZ or buying as an after-market piece and installing myself, but I thought this was a good idea as someone around me (most likely my muthr) may have to use the firearm in a home defense situation. the laser sight would aid them greatly, and from what I can see it doesn't add any significant size to the grip. then again, I think it looks better with the checkered grips.

the Taurus, while it may be a fine firearm (not as pretty as the CZ P 01), I've opted not to start out with that company. I hear too many quality control stories, whether valid or not, and would rather not take the chance (even with their warranty). I just can't shake the feeling that it's a little roll of the dice. they make a few firearms I'm interested in and I will probly give them business down the road.

really liking the P 01.

mindwip: Its hard to match up measurements to a pistol that will fit you for 2 reasons,

1).There are different grips that change the size AND shape of how your hand will wrap around the pistol, not only after market but factory too. Of course there is some common sense here, pistols with know big grips may not be to your liking just med/small ones.

2). Just because the pistol fits your measurements you may not like it, being do to weight distribution, and personal "likeness" of different grips.

I am 21 yr 6ft 145lb shooting for about 9 months, and take large gloves, I have long skinny fingers.

For example i really like pistols with a smaller grip, this allows my hands to fully engulf the pistol. The only bad thing about this is if i am not careful it puts my trigger finger to far in the pistol resulting in a bad trigger pull.

There are two ways to correct this. Mentally move my finger to its proper place each time i place my finger on the trigger, till muscle memory sets in, or get bigger grips. On my Hi-power this was my problem i was forgetting to place my finger in the proper spot. This gave me groups about 1-2inchs off center. The groups them selfs were great, anywhere from less then 1 inch to 3 inches at 15 yards. So i bought bigger grips to help me move to the center, and not have to think about finger placement. Which has worked. Once my finger (muscle memory) knows where it should go on the trigger, with out me thinking i am going to try the smaller grips again. Hoping the finger remembers its place and with me helping. I swear it has a mind of its own.

Just my 2cents on that area, CZ P-01 and the Sig 229/239 are great pistols and smaller CCWs.

The Sig 229 is a compact and highcapacity. pistol 13rds of 9mm.

I understand what you're saying. I already experienced that on my prior range trips with the Springfield XD's grip changes. I also noticed I liked the feel of the Glock in my hand more than a few of the revolvers despite them having smaller grips.

the Sig 229 and 239 have had my interest for awhile. just haven't found them for a price I want to pay. might make me take a stronger look @ buying used.

good luck with your finger memory. haaa.

10 Ring Tao: Do yourself a favor, and if you think you'll be carrying this gun, don't get a single action or other gun that requires a safety to be disengaged when drawing.

My advanced CCW class was thus:

2/3 glocks, DAO, or DA/SA autos.
1/3 1911s.

That 1/3 of the class experienced 95% of the problems that day. Mostly function failures (FTF FTE stovepipe etc), and forgetting to flip the safety when drawing.

Stick with a pure point and click interface.

well, I agree and disagree. I shot some 1911's that required the safety to be disengaged upon unholstering. I admit that it was a pain to get to a point where I was drawing relatively smoothly. there is a lot of merit in recommending to avoid manual safeties for a new shooter. the only reason I disagree is that I feel I made pretty good progress within a day of shooting time. it seems like making it your go-to firearm and training with it constantly could overcome the nerves and muscle memory that interfere with a smooth draw with a manual safety. but then again, what the heck do I know? haaa.

I've already agreed with you tho. I haven't been looking @ anything that requires disengaging a manual safety for my first firearm (unless you want to count the grip safety on the Springfield XD's).

Dark_Harvest: i'll be quick and honest with you.

you want a Glock 19, and a Smith & Wesson 642.

The Glock 19 is pretty much the paramount of the last 300 years of handgun development wrapped into one amazing little piece. i typically wear a "medium" size glove, and the 19 is an absolutely perfect fit for me. if it's big for you, you can easily have a grip reduction performed by a few different people, no shortage of choices there. that covers your "full size piece" requirements, as i've never seen a G19 not perform at 100%. (if you do, send it to me, i'll get it fixed!!!)

the S&W 642 is just about the best hide-a-way piece out there. i actually do own a Bersa Thunder 380, and do trust it, but the smith is more easily available (typically), so we'll stick with that... very light, and the +p rounds will pretty much cover any of your daily needs...

I think that these two options will serve you well. You will end up wanting to add to this collection, just so you know, but you can take your time, and determine your needs... just evaluate what you will need, and take your time making decisions. Research is key, as is personal range time.

I can only suggest, obviously. It's up to you to make the final decision as to what will work for you...

Good luck, and definitely remember to factor in training cost!!!!

it's more than worth it!!!!
b

thanks for replying.

I agree. I do want a Glock 19 and an S&W 642 (and with laser grips on that S&W). haaa. I luv Glock's reputation and would luv a J-frame in the Centennial style. S&W's 642 also is available in a Lady Smith model (altho I don't think my hands are that small).

still have to debate over where to take this. and narrow it down to but a single firearm.

I'm hoping I get the chance to handle as many firearms as possible over the summer. I know this will lead to a semi-addiction. I went thru it with flashlights and blades already.

range time is one of my question marks. as is training in general. I know I found a gentleman who is qualified to teach the NRA Basic Pistol course. friend of a friend kind of thing, so I hope I might have a foot in the door already. after that, I'll see what other training he has available and get as much as I can (it's tough to find diverse training when you live way the heck up in the North Woods of Maine tho, haaa).

thanks again for sticking with this thread thru THR's hardships, folks. I appreciate it. really luving all the information gathered in this one thread.

- Ryan

 

[ryan in maine]

aright now, I said I'd contact Springfield about the XD Compact in other calibers. done and done!

initial e-mail I sent:
Hello Springfield. This is a question regarding your XD series. I went to check out the XD Compact and realized it was only available in .45ACP. I was wondering if it's possible (custom or maybe on the future agenda) to see an XD Compact in 9mm? This would be ideal for many new shooters who are looking for a gorgeously-priced handgun that can multi-task as a trainer, home-defense firearm, and CCW, all the while shooting the most cost-effective caliber on the market at this time. I would imagine it would shoot beautifully. I'm sure you've heard this before, but I thought I'd ask for myself. Regards, Ryan Eslin

very speedy and concise reply from Springfield:
Hi Ryan – Your wish has come true.

We are also offering the compact in 9mm & .40 cal.

Part numbers are – XD9781HCSP06 – 9mm

XD9782HCSP06 – 40 Cal

We are suppose to release these sometime this fall.

Thanks, <employee name here>

I'm excited. I dunno about everyone else! employee's name and e-mail is available upon request. I decided to keep it out to avoid bombardment of one employee. my initial e-mail was sent to sales @ springfield-armory.com and I got my reply the same day.

am I the last to find out? haaa.

 

[10 Ring Tao]

it seems like making it your go-to firearm and training with it constantly could overcome the nerves and muscle memory that interfere with a smooth draw with a manual safety. but then again, what the heck do I know? haaa.

Under life threatening stress, the only commands your brain is going to pump out are "point arm in general direction" and "mash trigger/squeeze hand". Those are both gross motor skills. Fine motor skills, like flicking a safety, go right out the window.

 

[peterotte]

ryan in maine

Just a thought. There are pistols, like Browning’s, that are natural pointers. It has to do with the stepped slides. They have pretty comfortable grips as well (or was that due to Pachmeyers)? I personally like a longer barrel - which has no bearing on what you should like - but helped me shoot better.

On the subject of arthritis, mine has become scarcely noticeable after about three years of Glucosamine and Chondroitin (with zinc and copper I think) capsules.

 

[mindwip]

Under life threatening stress, the only commands your brain is going to pump out are "point arm in general direction" and "mash trigger/squeeze hand". Those are both gross motor skills. Fine motor skills, like flicking a safety, go right out the window.

Flicking a safety is not a fine motor skill any more then aiming a gun at the bad guy, aiming a gun at some one so you hit them is a fine motor skill. Muscle memory is the key. How you train is how you fight, no if ands or buts.



If you think someone cant flick a safety to save there life, someone should tell the military that. Seeing as how they have saftys on all there weapons.

Second How you train how you fight. When they taught cops with revolvers to pick up there ammo after each reload for practice. To keep the range clean. Notice this is a fine motor skill. Reloading and picking up spent ammo and putting it in your pocket. Guess what cops started doing when in gun fights they started to pick up there own ammo, and putting it in there pockets. Mean while they are being killed by bad guys. Cops found died with brass in there pockets.

So yes you lose fine motor skill, though that is not true because some people in high stress gain more motor skill, brain works faster so time slows down so you have more time to think about what to do. Even if you lose fine motor skill and other senses your body will go on auto pilot if your auto pilot knows how to work a safety you will be fine.

There are many things that can happen to you in high stress, generally you dont know which ones before hand. Time speed up, slow down, tunnel vision, blind, deaf, selective hearing, superhuman hearing, increased strength, increased focus, too not being able to focus on anything, memory loss, dissociation, paralysis. Alot of this depends on your heart rate/pressure, and what chemicals your body is releasing. If you keep "clam" the affects are less, the more not "clam" you get the more you "lose" control. Even if you lose fine motor skill, or complex motor skill, and you have what to do trained into your muscle memory, that will take over your lose of control. Simply put you many not be able to add 2 +2 to save your life or put a finger on your nose, you will be able to do what ever you trained to do. Even if that is to work a pistol and shoot the bad guy. Its not Fine/complex/ muscle control that is doing it, it is your memory of how to do it.

It all comes down to this, when in a high stress situation you fall down to your training. If you train to release the safety you will, if you train to pick up brass you will, if you train to dive for cover at a sound of incoming arty you will, with out you ever thinking about it. Your body is trying to keep you alive,when you mind goes for a hike.

 

[BOONER]

The main issue is this

1 get a gun that fits you.
2 get a gun a good gun you can afford that fits you
3 train with said gun that fits you
4 take lots of classes and get good with the gun that fits you
5 motor skills fine skils etc...... to each is own. i have trained with 1911's for years and it is as natural for me to flip the saftey off as it is to point and shoot........ but mind you i have like many others a lot of ammo and training under my belt...... and still learning,

but i do find that simple is best if your not going to take the time needed to learn and use each system to its fullest and or yourself.

there are to many folks that do not train. and by training i dont mean going and shooting a 100 rounds at paper or cans,.

I see lot of people in class once a bit of stress is put on them it all goes out the window.....

simple is best................

 

[10 Ring Tao]

To further my recommendation of getting a defensive pistol that works with a point and click interface. No external safeties, nothing but draw and pull the trigger.

http://joelrosenberg.livejournal.com/202149.html


Also, don't get sucked into thinking you need a pistol with a 'second strike' capability. Malfunctions should be cleared immediately with TAP-RACK-BANG no matter what. If you have a dud centerfire round, and you pull the trigger on it again, and it doesn't go off, you're already that far behind if you'd just cleared it initially with a tap-rack. We're talking about fresh factory centerfire ammo here, not bulk pack rimfire ammo that can be loaded back into the mag. If a fresh factory round doesn't go off the first time, something is seriously wrong, with little chance a second strike is going to fix it.

 

[CZ223]

I wish you lived closer

I would be happy to help out as much as possible. I, however, live in Lewiston and you are closer to Canada than to me. There is a member here that lives much closer to you named Kid Couteu, you can find him on the members list. He is a very nice guy and he lives in Caribou. I have shot Cowboy action matches with him, he knows me as Garrett Slowhand Wade.

As to your choice of weapon and caliber, that is a very personal decision that must be based on many factors. For self defense I would stick with a caliber that is or has been used by a lot of police agencies like, 357 mag, 9mm, 40 S&W, 45acp etc. I would stay away from rounds like the 357 sig or the 45 GAP, for now anyway. By the way I have a a Glock 32 in 357 Sig and love it but, I reload for it. My other self defense gun is also a mid sized Glock in 40 S&W, the model 23. I love the Glocks because, for me anyway, they fit my hand real well and they are the epitome of simple. If I have to grab a gun in an emergency, I do not want to have to worry about wether the safety is on or not. Some people will tell you that the Glocks don't point as well for them as other guns and that is true, for them. If you train with a Glock or any other firearm for that matter, pointing it will become second nature.

As for your price range, I think you have many good options for $600 or less. Check out Summittgunbroker.com. Mark is a great guy to deal with and he has a lot of good police trade ins. Do not be afraid to buy over the internet from a reputable dealer.

 

[jr4521]

I like my Glock 19 9mm for high capacity carry,
or I also like my S&W snub 38 to stick in my shorts pocket.
I have a 44 mag S&W for my nightstand gun

I would go with quality as much as you can afford,im from the school of the well aimed shot ,not the spray and pray . I like to go to a few gun stores hold them possibly rent one ,then buy the one you liked best on line at a much cheaper price.

 

[doc2rn]

1). Yes, I would look hard at the CZ 75 B also and an FN 9 (my favorites), my second guns are Ruger MK II tapered 6"
2). Most Revolvers I would say no especially a Mod 60 but look at the top strap to make sure it hasnt been cut by excessive loads.
3). I recommend joining a club, so no one has to vouche for you.
4). I use one size bigger pants and a VMX2 holster or any Milt Sparks will be keepers for IWB for OWB I like Galco high rise.
5). Nope stress the 4 rules everyday, everywhere
6). No but most have a layaway of some sort.

 

[jakeswensonmt]

You do know you're posting in a thread that's going on a year stale, right? I think this guy has probably made up his mind or given up by now...