rswartsell
Member
+1 for Justin
Is it impolite to point a gun with your hand over the muzzle?
- Thread starter BigBlock
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im not argueing against safety im argueing against someone saying they would be upset if they got sweeped at a gunshow then the next day go run a course with a 10 shot sa shotgun or sa ar15... 3 gun is in my opinion only ok and within the rules and safe because people involved deem it so ... everything in this world is relative... and im perfectly fine with ppl disagreeing with me... im not however fine with overly touchy ppl that in my opinion are hypocrites....
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
If you are talking about a 3-gun competitor who does not sweep anyone with the muzzle, ever, vs. some guy in a gunshop who blithely points guns he thinks are unloaded at other people, then yes, the latter is more dangerous.
The annual number of fatalities in IPSC, USPSA, IDPA, and 3-gun matches is approximately zero. The annual number of fatalities resulting from people pointing guns they think are unloaded at other people is in the low hundreds.
I would be just as upset if I got muzzle swept at a shooting range or in a match. But I DON'T GET SWEPT AT MATCHES because the people shooting them follow the four rules, and failing to follow them (even a little bitty bit) will get you ejected.
John Wayne
Member
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The thing that always gets me is that even if a gun store employee inspects the chamber and hands the gun to me with the action open, upon me handing it back to them, they will drop the slide and dry fire it before putting it back in the case, usually without checking the chamber.
Usually, it's pointed at the floor but several times I have seen an employee do this right as it's going back on the shelf, i.e. when it's pointed at my thigh! Now, I guess the display case could be made of bullet-resistant glass but seeing as how it has a sign requesting you not to lean on it, I'm guessing it's not.
This is one of my biggest concerns, as there is absolutely no reason or benefit to dry firing an auto before putting it back in the case, and there is an enormous risk.
Usually, it's pointed at the floor but several times I have seen an employee do this right as it's going back on the shelf, i.e. when it's pointed at my thigh! Now, I guess the display case could be made of bullet-resistant glass but seeing as how it has a sign requesting you not to lean on it, I'm guessing it's not.
This is one of my biggest concerns, as there is absolutely no reason or benefit to dry firing an auto before putting it back in the case, and there is an enormous risk.
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
You can ask me to interpate (sic) it any way you want, but it doesn't change the fact that you made claims of some sort of conspiracy between competitors and range officers to violate basic gun safety procedures when that is patently, provably, and utterly false.
Yes. You were. You did it when you basically claimed that there was nothing wrong with sweeping another person with an unloaded gun. You did it again when you claimed that practical shooting competitions require that competitors break the rules, and you're failing to even acknowledge your ignorance now by trying to claim that you didn't mean what you said.
Given the number of people who are accidentally shot with "unloaded" guns, I would argue that it is absolutely not idiotic.
So you recant your earlier statements that practical shooting competitors regularly violate basic gun safety procedures?
Ok, then prove it. Cite a source where Col. Jeff Cooper, the originator of the four rules of gun safety, stated that his rules were meant to keep people from shooting in situations that involve movement.
BHP FAN
Member
Sounds like someone got called on it,and is now looking for validation of thier bad habits.
none of statements involve maybe loaded guns only unloaded guns... actuall unloaded guns... you ppl are honestly saying its more dangerous to visit a gun shop or gun show than to compete in 3 gun or multigun do you not realize the ingorance of that logic statistically supported or not... more ppl get killed by dogs every year than bears... which do you think is more dangerous
rswartsell
Member
I have never seen anyone "swept" at a 3 gun competition, I will never accept the necessity or acceptability of being "swept". I expect anyone handling a deadly weapon in my proximity to do everything humanly possible to provide for my safety and the safety of others. If you see hypocrisy in this, or you cannot understand why it is an overly touchy matter, please don't come to the range where I shoot.
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
See, but that's the thing.
We aren't the hypocrites.
jeff cooper is just some guy.. like me or like you these 4 rules are not the bible.. they are not even rules what happens if you get sweeped in a gun shop and you dont like and someone broke the rules holy crap oh i remember nothing happens .. nothing at all... most ppl even if offended wouldnt say anything.. and you can use these rules of yours to make running and gunning completely safe.. i dont care ... its annoying to me that you even bring some guy that made some rules.... way back when... im sure cooper ment for the rules to be taken and swayed by common sense when neccerary
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
No match experience, huh? If you'd shot...or even WATCHED ... one of these matches you wouldn't write anything like that. One shooter on the line at a time. One safety officer per shooter -- concentrating on his or her every move to ensure no safety violations ocurr. NO ONE down range, ever, while guns are loaded. The chances that you are as safe on a conventional firing range as you are in a match are effectively ZERO.
I've noticed something about my older shooting friends. The MORE experience they get with guns, and the more 100s of 1000s of rounds they've fired and watched be fired in matches, the MORE careful they get with safety and the MORE TOUCHY they are about being "swept."
The safety fundamentals reduce the odds of being hurt or killed. If you can think of interacting with firearms as rolling the dice on being injured, some of us roll those dice thousands of times a year -- millions of times in a lifetime. We do everything we can to reduce the odds of injury EACH time we interact with a firearm. At the range, at the gun show, at the gun shop.
THE SAME RULES APPLY! PERIOD.
-Sam
Zak Smith
Member
The qualitative difference is that sweeping someone with a handgun is a direct violation of the four rules of gun safety generally accepted by the entire community, as rswartsell so eloquently put it:
-- while running an action shooting course does not involve sweeping anyone. With respect, if you haven't attended and competed in a practical shooting match under these rules, you have no knowledge of the actual rules and what actual goes on.
Also, it's not like moving around, over obstacles, etc, is something new. People have been hunting for ages and certainly those experiences were brought to bear as the 4 rules were developed over time. Keeping the gun pointed in a safe direction is always required for safety: the shooter might fail and have his finger on the trigger; he might be cavalier and not treating is as a loaded gun; the gun might have a mechanical problem; etc-- but as long as the gun is pointed in a safe direction nobody will get shot. The 4 rules exist in order to form habits to provide a framework of redundancy to prevent people from getting shot.
You misunderstand. I don't care if you like me, or really, if you call me names or a hypocrite or whatever. My point was that at one point you stopped defending the OP's behavior and instead focussed on proving how I - and now the other action shooters - are allegedly hypocrites. In other words, you deflected the argument from defending the OP's actions - which are indefensible - to attacking those who disagreed with you by attempting to discredit them. That's "argument fail."
At this point, if you have anything else to add about the OP's situation, go ahead. If you really want to discuss action shooting sports' safety protocols, open a thread in Competition.
dirt_j00
Member
Are you serious? You really don't mind having guns pointed at you? You know guns are made to make holes in things, right?
You know this how? That's right: you don't.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Undoubtedly, yes. I see thousands of folks VERY STRICTLY following the safety rules when I go to matches.
I see at least hundreds of folks assiduously IGNORING the safety rules when I go to gun shows and gun shops.
Seeing it this way may be a huge philosophical change for you, but if you took the time to do some first-hand investigation of the matter (attend matches, count the violations, then go do the same at shops/shows) your mind would be COMPLETELY changed.
-Sam
rswartsell
Member
feudalson
Look up the word specious.
Look up the word specious.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Or you get shot because someone dropped a round in the chamber and no one checked. Do a search here on THR. This HAPPENS. Not make-believe.
-Sam
There is no such thing as an unloaded firearm. See rule #1
Golf Course:
Waste of a good rifle range.
Six
Member
It's not a debate...it's random contrarian arguments that jump from point to point, conceding little and contributing less of value.
I agree with 3pairs12, I think several contributors in the thread don't know what the 4 rules are, much less why they are.
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