Improved 9mm ammunition

[Shawn Dodson]

Explain to us how FBI "choked on 10mm".

 

[481]

This is a "Courtney" paper. Their work was discredited years ago when they were peddling their "ballistic pressure wave" baloney. They eventually gave up when all their efforts were rejected by others more knowledgeable in wound ballistics.

Have they? He's been mucking up any wikipedia page that has anything to do with the topic or anything else to do with it. I have noticed that there haven't been any papers recently, so there's that.

 

[bnolsen]

This is old, did anyone post this link from the atlanta morgue?

http://www.mouseguns.com/deadmeat.htm

someone forgot to lock the thread I think.

 

[CDW4ME]

When gun season opens, I'm taking a recently acquired Delta Elite (love it), 5+ shot averages:
Handload Nosler 150 JHP @ 1,402 fps / 655# KE
Handload Hornady 155 XTP @ 1,400 fps / 675# KE
According to calculator, 155 XTP should retain about 1,322 fps / 602# KE at 20 yards.

I was successful, 155 gr. XTP made holes bigger than expanded diameter of bullet, I have a couple more pics. not in my thread:
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/delta-elite-10mm-deer.828535/

Exit hole from shoulder/leg was about 1 1/4'' - pulverized entry hole on heart much bigger than expanded XTP, bigger than quarter heart exit hole.
Pics available for "layperson" review.
Handgun bullets with sufficient KE / fps can (and did) damage tissue beyond what the bullet actually contacts.

 

[golden]

I have been carrying a .40 S&W for the past 20 years, either a Beretta 96D Brigadier (a really big gun to conceal) or our present issue H&K P2000. Now we are going to switch over to the 9m.m. again.
I carried either a GLOCK 17 or 19 or SIG 226 before my agency made it mandatory to carry an issued gun. We used +P+ ammo for carry and I never heard any complaints about it.

I never bought into the .40 caliber being better nonsense. Our first .40 caliber ammo was a 155 grain hollow point at 1,200 feet per second. It was specified to equal the .357 magnum revolver load we had as standard issue and pretty much succeeded. We had no complaints from the field, but it was hard on the gun and some people were marginal qualifiers. It was a real step up in power, but came at a price. We wore out most of our Beretta 96's by the time we swapped for the H&K's. This load was the only reason I would choose to carry a .40 S&W. It really hit hard!

Next we went to the 135 grain hollow point at the same velocity. It was milder, but our gun people were unhappy with it, so now we use "WHITE BOX" 180 grain hollow points. I have not a clue why we went to this ammo.
I will be happy when we go back to the 9m.m. and may be allowed to carry our own guns (maybe). I would be much happier with a mid size 9m.m. like the Beretta 92 Compact or even a single column gun like the original SIG 225, my favorite range gun.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

This is a "Courtney" paper. Their work was discredited years ago when they were peddling their "ballistic pressure wave" baloney. They eventually gave up when all their efforts were rejected by others more knowledgeable in wound ballistics.

I've read plenty of debates on internet forums, but none of their detractors ever managed to publish a reply to one of their papers published in peer-reviewed venues: Brain Injury, Neurosurgery, Investigative Science Journal, and the Proceedings of the International Ballistics Symposium. You have to be pretty ignorant to say "they eventually gave up" when they've published at least two papers in wound ballistics in 2017.

If "all their efforts were rejected by others more knowledgeable" as you claim, how did they manage to get so much work published in peer-reviewed journals? And how in the world was this paper cited 50 times?

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02699050701481571

 

[Danoobie]

Explain to us how FBI "choked on 10mm".

Well, let's see. IIRC, at @ 9:30AM, on April 11, 1986, the FBI attempted to pull over a couple of suspected bank robbers.
The ensuing firefight, in which the outnumbered criminals were able to inflict heavy casualties, apparently was the spur
(AKA The 1986 FBI Miami Shootout) to the decision that the FBI needed a higher caliber issue carry pistol than the 9mm.
(would be 9mmX19mm, AKA 9mm Luger, or 9mm Parabellum)
Initially, they chose the 10MM (AKA as 10mm x25mm) to be the new caliber, and the S&W 1076 pistol, to replace the 9mm.
However, it's sharp recoil proved to be too much for most of it's agents to control effectively. {SIC} Soon afterwards, S&W
developed the .40 S&W (which, it was argued was still 10mm diameter, if not the same power as the original) which was adopted.

And that, in as simple terms as can be put forth, is "how the FBI choked on the 10mm"

 

[Shawn Dodson]

However, it's sharp recoil proved to be too much for most of it's agents to control effectively.

The FBI developed its reduced velocity 10mm load long before 10mm was ever issued to any agent. The load was developed first, then FBI had to wait for S&W to deliver the model 1076 handgun. Full power 10mm ammunition was NEVER issued to agents.

The claim that agents couldn't handle the recoil of full power 10mm ammunition is untrue.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

If "all their efforts were rejected by others more knowledgeable" as you claim, how did they manage to get so much work published in peer-reviewed journals?

Their work has been soundly rejected by the professional wound ballistics community. They've been found (by those who actually took the time to study the references they cite) to have misrepresented the findings of others to support their junk science.

IWBA was founded to counter misinformation of the kind peddled by Courtney that was being published in highly respected professional medical journals. The fact they've had their work published does not lend it credibility. It simply means wound ballistics junk science continues to slip through the cracks.

 

[Danoobie]

Your information is probably true. So in your own version, the FBI never even got a chance to choke on full powered
10MM rounds, before choking on the FBI tailored MILDER 10MM load; consequently moving on to the 40S&W.
I can live with that.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

There were problems with the 1076 pistols. By the time S&W managed to fix them FBI had moved on to .40 S&W. The load adopted was 180gr JHP at 980 fps, virtually the same as FBI's original 180gr 10mm load, but in a medium frame 9mm size pistol vs large frame 10mm/45 ACP size pistol.

 

[bnolsen]

Did they redesign the Beretta to actually handle 40 properly? Thought they had one of the crappier 40 pistols out there. The 155gr sounds like a sweet spot for the 40 as 180s I think are better for 10mm loads.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

I carried a Beretta 96FS on patrol and never had a single problem with it. Not one stoppage or failure - ever. I chose it because I wanted the longer sight radius it offered over comparable pistols at the time.

A 180gr .40 caliber bullet has virtually the same sectional density (0.161) as 230gr .45 ACP (0.162). John Hall, FBI SAIC FBI-FTU, recognized this and he personally handloaded 180gr loads for experimental terminal ballistics testing. In essence the FBI's 10mm reduced velocity load mimicked the .45 ACP 230gr load except it propelled the 180gr bullet about 100 fps faster.