In this thread we carry pistols 40 (10mm) or larger caliber.

[Walt Sherrill]

Finally, I would reiterate that instances (such as some unspecified, unquantified percentage of Somalis... although they are a bad example, I explained above) not showing any incapacitation from tissue displacement is not proof that the phenomenon is non-existent... just proof that it does not always manifest. Just as not every punch in the stomach knocks the wind out of someone. That doesn't mean that gut-punches don't stop a lot of fights.

I added the underlining above. What does that statement mean? Were some Somalis incapacitated but their incapacitation just wasn't visible, that there was not sufficient tissue displaced, or was some other undefined process at play? Your reasoning seems to be an example of what is called:Begging the question which is sometimes known by its Latin name petitio principii (meaning assuming the initial point).

Begging the Question is considered a logical fallacy in which the writer or speaker assumes the statement under examination to be true. In other words, begging the question involves using a premise to support itself. If the premise is questionable, then the argument is bad.​

You believe that tissue displacement is a very powerful component of all gunshot wounds, and because of that belief, you assume tissue displacement (and is side-effects) must always be present if the person is hit in an appropriate area. You've used your conclusion as your assumption. I would argue, however, that not showing signs of incapacitation due to tissue displacement is proof of only one thing: the lack of incapacitation due to tissue displacement, and nothing more. You can't correctly or logically take it farther than that.

Saying the lack of incapacitation is proof that the related phenomenon exists but doesn't always manifest itself is a logical error -- or a statement of belief.

 

[ATLDave]

The many, many instances of people stopping when they are shot is the phenomenon. There are many such examples. Since I am not claiming that it always happens, any more than a punch in the gut always knocks the wind out of someone, citing one or more examples of when it did not happen (like some unknown percentage of Somalis) is not disproof.

You can have the last word if you like.

 

[CDW4ME]

This thread has a convenient table for comparing the relative momentum of various handgun cartridges:

http://rugerforum.net/reloading/7566-ammo-momentum-energy-chart.html

The conventional wisdom is that projectiles with between 20 and 30 lb-ft/sec momentum are best for self-defense whereas those with much greater than 30 lb-ft.sec have too much potential for over-penetration when used against human targets, but may be beneficial for hunting are defense against large four legged attackers.

.40 S&W and 357 SIG are nearly equivalent in projectile momentum.

I may have been using jacked up math: bullet weight x velocity = ___ / 225,120 = M
Nonetheless 357 Sig and 40 are about the same M even with my conflicted math.
Glock 32 (357 Sig): Federal HST 125 gr. @ 1,358 fps / 512# KE (.75 momentum)
Glock 22: Speer Gold Dot 180 gr. @ 975 fps / 380# KE - .78 momentum

 

[pblanc]

The projectile momentums in the table are in pound-feet/sec. There are obviously metric units of measurement for momentum as well, but since most of us talk about projectile velocities in feet per second, and projectile mass in grains, it seems reasonable to use the non-metric units. There are 7000 grains in a pound. The formula for momentum is mass times velocity. So to calculate projectile momentum in pound-feet/sec, take the projectile mass in grains, divide by 7000, and multiply by velocity in feet per second.

Just to add one more possibly belabored point to provide a possible explanation as to why certain individuals might fall down or appear temporarily stunned after sustaining a non-lethal gun shot wound, there is at least one other well-known physiological mechanism that could explain this behavior. Vasovagal reactions are very common and can cause an immediate loss of upright stature and a fall to the ground. I have experienced one once and witnessed several. In my case, I was walking barefoot through a dark room and stubbed my big toe on the leg of a chair my wife had moved earlier in the evening. It hurt like hell and judging from the amount of bruising and swelling I experienced afterwards I probably broke it, but it certainly wasn't an incapacitating injury. But a second later I found myself flat on my back on the floor.

But you don't have to experience pain or an injury to have vasovagal syncope. We have all seen ladies swoon in the movies in response to some shocking or startling event. Well, it really happens, and not just in women. I have seen several young medical students or nursing students go down the first time they were in the operating room. The typical scenario is that they appear to be fine one second, and in the next instant their face turns pale and sweaty. You tell them to immediately sit and put their head between their knees, which they almost never do, and the next instant boom, they are on the deck.

What is going on here is that disturbing visions or painful events can stimulate the vagus nerve centers in the brain stem that rapidly send electrical signals down the vagus nerve. This causes an instantaneous drop in heart rate and vasodilatation of the large capacitance veins of the lower body. The net result is an immediate drop in blood pressure that reduces blood flow to the brain causing the individual to fall down or even lose consciousness. Of course, all of this is completely reversible and leaves no physical evidence of its occurrence afterwards.

 

[Mike J]

Not high end but here is a gratuitous gun pic

 

[Mike J]

So here is my one .45. Sorry I had a hard time getting the image to post. Finally figured out what I was doing wrong.

 

[Mike J]

Oh & it ain't fancy or pretty but here is an old school .40 that is as reliable as they come.

 

[CDW4ME]

So here is my one .45.

I have a 45 acp Ruger 1911 - looks a lot like that.
I've only run about 300 rounds through it to ensure reliability, it fed a variety of HP (Golden Saber, HST, Ranger T, Barnes Tac-XP) without fail and was not magazine picky, worked with 8 round mags just fine.

 

[Mike J]

I have a 45 acp Ruger 1911 - looks a lot like that.
I've only run about 300 rounds through it to ensure reliability, it fed a variety of HP (Golden Saber, HST, Ranger T, Barnes Tac-XP) without fail and was not magazine picky, worked with 8 round mags just fine.

I like mine. It functioned fine right out of the box. My only issue with it was about every 4th or 5th shot it would ding me in the head with spent brass. I did a little research & adjusted the extractor. It has been fine since. The only thing I changed was I bought some darker grips from Ruger. I like dark colored grips on stainless guns.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

And I have a Springfield XDm Competition in .45 (5.5" barrel) that I shoot better than any .45 I've owned. or shot ...

I'm NOT a large-caliber gun hater -- and I do subscribe to the idea that a larger hole is better -- but I haven't always been able to get those larger holes where I wanted them.

I was a bit sceptical about the XD guns until I tried this one -- and it just fits me, and I shoot it well.