I dont think mechanical accuracy is that important with defensive pistols. If a high quality 1911 can shoot a 1.5 inch group from a vise and an entry level pistol can shoot a 2 inch group from a vise I dont see any advantage if shooting attackers at 10 feet away. Expecially since I'd probably be pulling the trigger four inches off target in every direction since my arm isnt a vise. When someone says a gun is accurate I think they shoot that particular gun well its not so much the gun itself. For benchrest shooting and hunting I think one could utilize the difference, but for combat shooting I think we solved that problem a long time ago. Take a match grade Les Baur that'll do an inch at 25 yards and empty it asap at a paper plate at 1 yard you should have a group of 1/25th of an inch!
inherent accuracy
- Thread starter timothy75
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While I agree with your logic, I think you are discounting the practise sessions. Noone wants a pistol that is not accurate. The ability to hit what you are aiming at builds confidence and pride at the range. The more you hit the target (whether it is informal plinking or structured training) the better you feel about practise with the pistol.
AnthonyRSS
Member
Are you better now?
MICHAEL T
Member
Just get a good 45. Even if you miss the shock wave of bullet passing will knock them down Yep the mighty 45 one round over the heads of a mob and they will all be lieing on the street dazed.
Thats why those old Texas Rangers only sent 1 Ranger to a riot. Because he would be packing Gods Hammer,The 45. Hence the 1 Ranger 1 Riot. story.
Thats why those old Texas Rangers only sent 1 Ranger to a riot. Because he would be packing Gods Hammer,The 45. Hence the 1 Ranger 1 Riot. story.Borachon
Member
What if the only part of your opponent you can see is his hand? Or foot? Or leg? Or for that matter...head? And the rest of him is taking cover behind a brick wall or car body?
Accurate is good.
Accurate is good.
Standing Wolf
Member in memoriam
Some guns are more accurate than others; some guns are easier to shoot accurately than others; some guns need to be accurate, whereas others don't.
William P.
Member
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- Nov 8, 2005
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- 25
Why would you buy a gun you know would be inferior to another be it accuracy or dependebility. If I buy a gun, its with the intention of protecting my life or the lives of those I care about.
When you shoot at the BG and miss by an inch that inch of accuracy will be the last thing going through your mind as the BG shoves your High-Point up your butt.
-Will
When you shoot at the BG and miss by an inch that inch of accuracy will be the last thing going through your mind as the BG shoves your High-Point up your butt.
-Will
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Accuracy
I've always looked at the accuracy question as relevant to the task at hand.
What are you using the gun FOR? How "accurate" does it need to be?
Most importantly: How accurate are YOU?
Kinda boils down to this...
If the gun is accurate enough for you to hit the target at the distance of engagement and under the existing conditions...it's accurate enough.
Since most defensive shooting situations occur at distances better measured
in feet and inches than in yards...in low light...and are concluded in about 5 seconds with a total of about 5 rounds expended on both sides, you aren't likely to be able to do much better with a tack-driver than with a rank-and-file pistol or revolver. You won't have much time to align the sights...if you can even see them...and under the stress of such a situation, you won't be able to effect a perfect "X" anyway, unless you're lucky or lucky AND able to shoot to the level of a Grand Master...on demand.
So...How accurate does a defensive pistol have to be in order to get a couple of fast hits at 10 feet?
As Jeff Cooper once put it:
"An absolute measure of accuracy in a defensive pistol is a little like absolute top speed in a Ford pickup truck. Interesting, but irrevelant."
I've always looked at the accuracy question as relevant to the task at hand.
What are you using the gun FOR? How "accurate" does it need to be?
Most importantly: How accurate are YOU?
Kinda boils down to this...
If the gun is accurate enough for you to hit the target at the distance of engagement and under the existing conditions...it's accurate enough.
Since most defensive shooting situations occur at distances better measured
in feet and inches than in yards...in low light...and are concluded in about 5 seconds with a total of about 5 rounds expended on both sides, you aren't likely to be able to do much better with a tack-driver than with a rank-and-file pistol or revolver. You won't have much time to align the sights...if you can even see them...and under the stress of such a situation, you won't be able to effect a perfect "X" anyway, unless you're lucky or lucky AND able to shoot to the level of a Grand Master...on demand.
So...How accurate does a defensive pistol have to be in order to get a couple of fast hits at 10 feet?
As Jeff Cooper once put it:
"An absolute measure of accuracy in a defensive pistol is a little like absolute top speed in a Ford pickup truck. Interesting, but irrevelant."
Jenrick
Member
Aim Small, Miss Small
Then again I submit that ALL modern handguns are capable of more accuracy then then their owners are under Combat/Self Defense situations. Thus the limiting factor in the equation is the operator. This does not however remove the accuracy of the weapon from the equation, it merely lowevers it's importance.
-Jenrick
Then again I submit that ALL modern handguns are capable of more accuracy then then their owners are under Combat/Self Defense situations. Thus the limiting factor in the equation is the operator. This does not however remove the accuracy of the weapon from the equation, it merely lowevers it's importance.
-Jenrick
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
re:
Exactly!
It's a little amusing when I hear a deer hunter talking proudly of his hunting rifle,s ability to "put'em in one hole" from a bench...or agonizing because "The best I can get it to shoot is an inch and a half." For one thing, a rifle with a sandbagged, bench zero won't print to the same point of aim as it will when fired from a field position...and the other thing is that it's a different story at daylight...15 degrees with a stiff wind, sitting in a stand that you've nearly frozen to...and the buck of a lifetime walks out of the treeline.
Jenrick said:
Exactly!
It's a little amusing when I hear a deer hunter talking proudly of his hunting rifle,s ability to "put'em in one hole" from a bench...or agonizing because "The best I can get it to shoot is an inch and a half." For one thing, a rifle with a sandbagged, bench zero won't print to the same point of aim as it will when fired from a field position...and the other thing is that it's a different story at daylight...15 degrees with a stiff wind, sitting in a stand that you've nearly frozen to...and the buck of a lifetime walks out of the treeline.
Jenrick
Member
Shot the rifle won't hit the same zero if the buck a life time walks out onto the range directly in front of the target you just zeroed at, and the rifles still sandbagged. The human factor starts to kick in, and way overides the mechanical when you start talking about MOA or better accuracy.
-Jenrick
-Jenrick
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Bucks
ROFL Jenrick. Been there, done that too, I presume...
ROFL Jenrick. Been there, done that too, I presume...
Nail Shooter
Member
"......some guns are easier to shoot accurately than others....."
Have to agree w/ that to some extent. Also, whichever gun I've been shooting a lot or the most lately seems to be the most accurate.
Have to agree w/ that to some extent. Also, whichever gun I've been shooting a lot or the most lately seems to be the most accurate.
rockstar.esq
Member
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2004
- Messages
- 1,475
I am always amused that the same crowd that pines over a $2000.00 Les Baer is the same crowd that applauds "combat accuracy". This is not to say that they ignore reliability, its just that the only "reliable" ones cost a fortune. Maybe if I could find a good reason why .45ACP costs so much more than 9mm I could get a handle on the mindset of this group. The 9mm is the worlds most popular cartridge making the cartridge and the firearms intended for it less expensive. The .45acp is very popular in the US however the prices are unreasonable! Spare me and yourselves the "how much is your life worth mantra" as few of you purposely buy the absolute safest vehicles made despite the overwhelming likelyhood of an accident vs. a gunfight.
Reason is free, paranoia is priceless.
Reason is free, paranoia is priceless.
If we are talking pistols, extreme accuracy often comes at the expense of reliability. Reliability above all other things, is the most important - because if your handgun doesn’t work everything else doesn't matter.
A revolver is often more accurate then a service-grade pistol (we'll leave target guns out of this discussion.) I know of one case where accuracy was critically important when a police officer shot a hostage-taker in the head while missing the hostage. In this instance the B.G.'s head was the only target that presented itself.
The exact circumstances of a gunfight can never be predicted in advance. Therefore a person should demand the best accuracy possible that doesn't compromise reliability. Obviously some handguns are more accurate and reliable then others, but never expect that the other party(s) in a shooting incident will present their whole bodies for you to plink at, nor that a less-then-optimal hit will stop the action.
A revolver is often more accurate then a service-grade pistol (we'll leave target guns out of this discussion.) I know of one case where accuracy was critically important when a police officer shot a hostage-taker in the head while missing the hostage. In this instance the B.G.'s head was the only target that presented itself.
The exact circumstances of a gunfight can never be predicted in advance. Therefore a person should demand the best accuracy possible that doesn't compromise reliability. Obviously some handguns are more accurate and reliable then others, but never expect that the other party(s) in a shooting incident will present their whole bodies for you to plink at, nor that a less-then-optimal hit will stop the action.
MICHAEL T
Member
Neither of my 1911a1's cost $2000 And they are a 100% relieable They are both Colts. But I also have a Llama that is also reliable I even carry it.now and then.
I would never pay $2000 for a pistol When a Colt, S&W ,Springfield, and many others are relieable and most will shoot better that person using the pistol.
I would never pay $2000 for a pistol When a Colt, S&W ,Springfield, and many others are relieable and most will shoot better that person using the pistol.
Sunray
Member
What's your point?
ezypikns
Member
All basic accuracy problems may be solved....
by exchanging your 1911 for a good S&W double action revolver with a minimum barrel length of 4". Thank you and let the fun begin.
by exchanging your 1911 for a good S&W double action revolver with a minimum barrel length of 4". Thank you and let the fun begin.
MachIVshooter
Member
rockstar.esq said:
There are just as many high-dollar 9mm's out there. Further, many full-size pistols have variants in the big 3 (9mm, .40, .45) and all cost about the same. The big diffence in price is ammo-related, but premium SD ammo tends to be expensive regardless of caliber.
rockstar.esq said:
OK, first, the "how much is your life worth" is arguing two points, neither of which is caliber. If you don't know what they are, you just don't get it.
Secondly, automobile accidents are costly, but percentage-wise, very few are lethal. To that end, most people walk away from them. Gun fights don't have such good odds for involved parties. I have been in 3 car accidents, and walked away from all without injury, despite driving a 20 year old Dodge pickup in all three (the last was a 2-1/2 times roll-over). Most deadly car accidents are single vehicle and involve at least two of these three factors: Alcohol, night time and high speeds. These can be easily avoided by using good sense. Most SD scenarios are (nearly) unforeseeable and give the offensive party a distinct advantage.
Comparing the need for a quality, reliable firearm for SD to the need for a safe automobile is impracticle. Automobile selection is done using myriad criteria. Defensive handgun selection is done using one.
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