Brian Williams
Moderator Emeritus
The blackies around here average 200 to 275 at most, and a 9x32R is a 357 mag in a European designation, (9mm = ~.355 - .357) X (a 357 case is ~ 32mm long) and it is Rimmed
Is a 9mm an adequate Colorado woods gun?
- Thread starter jlbraun
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I'm no fan of the 9, but it would work for everything except bears. Take some pepper spray. Sudden changes in the weather are you biggest danger. The critters rarely cause any trouble, even the two legged kind. If you run into a BG, it will probably be very close to where you park your car.
So far every poster is missing something.
I've killed dozens of bears. Black bears can be pretty dangerous sometimes, so they are not always timid like folks think. To STOP a black bear attack you dont need to kill it, just hurt it. They are easily turned unlike most grizzlies.
The 9mm will turn a black bear and save your life in an attack situation. Load it up with BBA 147gr. +p+ Gold Dots and you'll be good to go.
I normally carry a 500 Linebaugh in grizzly country and have used it more than once. I am not a 9mm fan, but the truth is that for black bear, the 9mm will work by turning or diswading the bear and that is all you care about because the aggression has ceased.
I've killed dozens of bears. Black bears can be pretty dangerous sometimes, so they are not always timid like folks think. To STOP a black bear attack you dont need to kill it, just hurt it. They are easily turned unlike most grizzlies.
The 9mm will turn a black bear and save your life in an attack situation. Load it up with BBA 147gr. +p+ Gold Dots and you'll be good to go.
I normally carry a 500 Linebaugh in grizzly country and have used it more than once. I am not a 9mm fan, but the truth is that for black bear, the 9mm will work by turning or diswading the bear and that is all you care about because the aggression has ceased.
Zundfolge
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Actually the best 9mm for bear is 9.3x74mmR 
Piedmont Plinker
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Note: black bears kill more people than any other type.
Brian, you'll note that IS a .357 Colt Magnum Carry.
chris in va
Member
I remember as a kid growing up in CO most of the stories you hear about are the mountain lions attacking joggers and pets. Never did I hear anything about bears.
One time a cougar wandered into town (CO Springs I think it was) and ate someone's poodle. Owner shot it with a .22 and it meandered through several neighborhoods leaving a blood trail. Gub't officials caught it, some animal activists nursed it back to health then dropped it off way the hell up in the next mountain range over.
Couple weeks later the same damn cat ate someone elses dog in town.:banghead:
They venture into populated areas when deer get scarce in their natural terrain. We always had an influx of the cats certain times of the year.
One time a cougar wandered into town (CO Springs I think it was) and ate someone's poodle. Owner shot it with a .22 and it meandered through several neighborhoods leaving a blood trail. Gub't officials caught it, some animal activists nursed it back to health then dropped it off way the hell up in the next mountain range over.
Couple weeks later the same damn cat ate someone elses dog in town.:banghead:
They venture into populated areas when deer get scarce in their natural terrain. We always had an influx of the cats certain times of the year.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
IMO
If you want to stick with a semi-auto I would carry a 10mm since a 9mm is very light.
As for the .357 Magnum, I wouldn't load it with 158 gr Hollow Points since HP rounds weren't designed for 4 legged creatures. If you decide to carry a .357 Magnum load it with 180 gr Hard Cast rounds. That's what I load in my 4" .357 Magnum for the woods.
If you want to stick with a semi-auto I would carry a 10mm since a 9mm is very light.
As for the .357 Magnum, I wouldn't load it with 158 gr Hollow Points since HP rounds weren't designed for 4 legged creatures. If you decide to carry a .357 Magnum load it with 180 gr Hard Cast rounds. That's what I load in my 4" .357 Magnum for the woods.
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THere are advantages to being as old as I am.
I remember about thirty years ago that an elk guide in SW CO was attacked an mauled by a female grizzly while he was archery hunting. This man killed the bear by stabbing it with a broadhead while it was mauling the tar out of him. The autopsy on the bear showed that it was about 18 years old and had given birth repeatedly.
SW CO is my favorite part of that state and I used to pack into the Weminuche wilderness often for elk hunting. There is sufficient remoteness and territory there for grizzlies although they are not supposed to exist there--we know at least one grizzly did exist there 30 years ago and I doubt she birthed herself.
I remember about thirty years ago that an elk guide in SW CO was attacked an mauled by a female grizzly while he was archery hunting. This man killed the bear by stabbing it with a broadhead while it was mauling the tar out of him. The autopsy on the bear showed that it was about 18 years old and had given birth repeatedly.
SW CO is my favorite part of that state and I used to pack into the Weminuche wilderness often for elk hunting. There is sufficient remoteness and territory there for grizzlies although they are not supposed to exist there--we know at least one grizzly did exist there 30 years ago and I doubt she birthed herself.
<SLV>
Member
I came across a grizzly in the LaPlata foothills just past Hesperus on the way to Cortez - this was probably about 20 years ago. Even back then they "didn't exist" in Colorado. I've heard other rumors in the last 10 years that other people have seen them.
Trisha
Member
If you have concerns, then work on being a better pistolero: speed AND accuracy on multiple targets inside 25 yards, shooting while moving, too.
Enjoy your time hiking, and perhaps be a little more meticulous in your field toilet, as well as food storage.
Feral dogs are a constant problem, and this year, given all the moisture we've had, plague and rabies might be a little more widespread. Ticks should be very prevalent.
It should be absolutely gorgeous on the trail!
Enjoy your time hiking, and perhaps be a little more meticulous in your field toilet, as well as food storage.
Feral dogs are a constant problem, and this year, given all the moisture we've had, plague and rabies might be a little more widespread. Ticks should be very prevalent.
It should be absolutely gorgeous on the trail!
Lived most of my life in Wyoming and spent a lot of time backpacking and hunting is places where there were grizzlies. Always had a gun, never had a problem. If I was doing it now, I would probably take a pump shotgun with slugs, and a good, big pepper spray!
dairycreek
Member
I have recently turned 70 and have been roaming the woods of Oregon and Washington for more than 50 years. I have always carried a woods/trail gun and in my personal opinion a 9 mm is just not adequate for what you can run into. I did run into a sick black bear some years ago and was happy to be carrying a Ruger Blackhawk in 44 magnum.
My current woods, carry favorite is a S&W Trail Boss.
My current woods, carry favorite is a S&W Trail Boss.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
If you want to play the statistics game, dump the gun and carry more water, spare cell phone batteries, or a spare 2 way radio with a list of proper frequencies for S&R. You are more likely to tumble down a hillside and turn up gimp-legged and needing rescue than you are to be in a fight with a bear. Hell, you are more likely to be injured in an automotive accident on your way to your starting hike point than fight a bear. Many times more people are killed by domestic dogs than by bears.
Is the 9mm enough for the bear? Probably not, but you only have to outrun your pretty girl. With that in mind, bears have been killed with .22s and other unlikely calibers, but you don't want to count on such a caliber in a crisis where you are at the disadvantage.
Don't confuse the description of being "timid" as the same as being fearful. This will be especially true if you come to be between a mother and cubs or an adult and its kill. Also where people make mistakes is in believing that the norm behavior is the default or absolute behavior for wild animals. Animals that are starved, sick, injured, senile, or otherwise outside of the norm cannot be expected to behave within the parameters of the norm.
Remember that while aggression to humans may be rare, they have the strength, speed, teeth, and claws to take you down quite easily.
The question you might want to be asking isn't if 9mm is enough per se, but enough to stop an attack before the offending animal can damage you enough that you don't survive. If you are attacked, you have to figure in that you will be in a remote area and how much time it will take for help to find you, retrieve you, and get you the proper medical care you need.
How far can the pretty girl carry you?
No, it is not very likely that you will have a problem, so in that regard, 9mm is more than enough gun and caliber to handle no problem, but it may be far from enough to handle a bear problem. Since your query was about defense against animals such as bears, then I would say that 9mm is not suitable...because when it comes to historic statistics, they are not valid as predictors for mutually exclusive events in the future and they mean absolutely nothing when you are involved in an event. So there have been only 2 attacks in the last X years in Colorado. What did such statistics meant to the two that were attacked?
FYI - Historic statistics going back that far are often inaccurate due to a lack of consistent reporting practices. There are a goodly number of people who are "lost" and hence don't show up in the attack statistics even though they may have been attacked. Stats only represent the known sample and in remote areas, the known sample may not be the whole sample.
TimboKhan
Member
Well, the key word in that phrase is "rumor". There are no Grizzlies in Colorado anymore. Black bears can look brown, and when people see them colored thusly, they just assume that they saw the mighty Grizzly. Trust me, if there was even a single solid hint that Grizz were in this state, the DOW would react quickly and loudly to ensure that it wasn't killed accidentally like the last grizz in the state was.
Anyway, back on topic, living in NoCo, I have spent a good deal of time up the Thompson and Poudre canyons, plus the White River National Forest, and a 9mm is sufficient. Ideal? No, probably not. Sufficient? Yes. One thing that is getting overlooked is competence. If you feel you can use that little 9 to great effect, then I say good enough. I don't have a dedicated woods gun yet, but I have carried my MkII fishing a ton, my daily carry .357 quite a bit, and my P90 in .45 on occasion.
DoubleNaught, NoCo is really not all that remote, at least in comparison with other parts of the state and/or the Kamchatka Peninsula. If he is talking about the Poudre Canyon or Thompson canyon areas, most of those places are well within cell distance, and at most your going to have a 20 minute drive to the nearest town. Additionally, most areas have very well established and maintained trails. Make no mistake, it's the outdoors, and mother nature has taken her fair share of day hikers and overnight campers, but getting attacked by a bear is extremely improbable. The DOW and the forest service both have offices in Fort Collins, and have for quite a few years now, so local statistics are very good. I think your first paragraph offered him the best advice out of all of us!
TimboKhan
Member
Sorry for the double posting here, but I did a little research and came up with this story about the Grizz in the state:
http://wildlife.state.co.us/WildlifeSpecies/SpeciesOfConcern/Mammals/GrizzlyBear.htm
If you don't want to read it, the state has them listed as Endangered, but says there are "probably" none left. Also, they are opposed to restoring them to the state. Heck, maybe the DOW does know there are grizz stumbling around, and wants someone to whack them!
Also, not unsurprisingly, all of the bear attacks in CO that I can find that are credibly reported indicate that the driving factor for the bear attack was food. Seriously, put your food in a bear bag not located particularly near you. Thats good advice. Also, for gods sake, if you come across one, don't try to ride it. If there is one thing that guarantees a bear attack, it's trying to ride it.
http://wildlife.state.co.us/WildlifeSpecies/SpeciesOfConcern/Mammals/GrizzlyBear.htm
If you don't want to read it, the state has them listed as Endangered, but says there are "probably" none left. Also, they are opposed to restoring them to the state. Heck, maybe the DOW does know there are grizz stumbling around, and wants someone to whack them!
Also, not unsurprisingly, all of the bear attacks in CO that I can find that are credibly reported indicate that the driving factor for the bear attack was food. Seriously, put your food in a bear bag not located particularly near you. Thats good advice. Also, for gods sake, if you come across one, don't try to ride it. If there is one thing that guarantees a bear attack, it's trying to ride it.
TimboKhan,
Only humans are arrogant/dumb enough to think that they can guarantee that a state like CO has NO grizzly. DOW was saying there was no grizzly in CO, when the last one was killed too.
About ten years ago, my son and my hunting buddy and myself were packing an elk out of the continental divide country of Idaho--right on the Montana state line. We watched a very large adult grizzly bore for about 1 minute. He was much larger than interior bears should be. A true monarch. Probably the most beautiful silver tip grizzly I've ever seen. I know how to judge bear size and I would say that this guy was around 900 lbs, which is very unliklely, but hey, I saw him and had plenty of time to size him up. A normal size for an adult interior grizzly bore would be closer to 500 lbs.
When I told Idaho F&G that I had seen this bear, I was repeatedly told that no grizzly exist in this area. Hmmmm. I finally decided I was wasting my time, which I should have known in the first place.
Since I was in those mountains all the time in the summer and fall, I didnt bother telling F&G about the female grizzly with two cubs that was in the same general area either. I've seen literally hundreds of grizzlies from my years of hunting them in AK. Shot my share of them too. So, they are very easy for me to identify. In fact Montana requires all black bear hunters to take a grizzly identification test in order to get your black bear license.
Only humans are arrogant/dumb enough to think that they can guarantee that a state like CO has NO grizzly. DOW was saying there was no grizzly in CO, when the last one was killed too.
About ten years ago, my son and my hunting buddy and myself were packing an elk out of the continental divide country of Idaho--right on the Montana state line. We watched a very large adult grizzly bore for about 1 minute. He was much larger than interior bears should be. A true monarch. Probably the most beautiful silver tip grizzly I've ever seen. I know how to judge bear size and I would say that this guy was around 900 lbs, which is very unliklely, but hey, I saw him and had plenty of time to size him up. A normal size for an adult interior grizzly bore would be closer to 500 lbs.
When I told Idaho F&G that I had seen this bear, I was repeatedly told that no grizzly exist in this area. Hmmmm. I finally decided I was wasting my time, which I should have known in the first place.
Since I was in those mountains all the time in the summer and fall, I didnt bother telling F&G about the female grizzly with two cubs that was in the same general area either. I've seen literally hundreds of grizzlies from my years of hunting them in AK. Shot my share of them too. So, they are very easy for me to identify. In fact Montana requires all black bear hunters to take a grizzly identification test in order to get your black bear license.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Right, like I noted, there is more danger driving to the trailhead than from being attacked by a bear. With that said, look at the short set of links to CO bear attacks and see what you can ascertain about patterns. As noted, there is often food involved. There is a lack of vigilance (sleepers attacked). Most are camping or hiking and not local. Most were fortunate in that the attacks were usually quite brief. All required medical attention. Several had significant injuries.
So while the attacks are not likely to happen, they do tend to happen to those who let down their guard, act improperly in bear country, and do result in injuries when they do occur, sometimes significant injuries. Basically, if you are attacked, then you will almost definitely be going to the hospital. Put another way, Low probability of occurence - High probability of serious injury.
23 bear attacks 1998-2006
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002960115_webbear28.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/07/20/earlyshow/main710339.shtml
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_5513949,00.html
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9803E3D6173CF936A25754C0A9659C8B63
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4191/is_20010725/ai_n9992630
This is a good one on kills, not just CO...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America_by_decade
This is also a good read...
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cach...olorado+bear+attack&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=24&gl=us
TimboKhan
Member
I will say that I suppose it is possible in the remotest region of Colorado. With that being said, I suppose I am both arrogant and dumb, because I would bet money that there are no grizzly left in this state.
Doublenaught, in my second post, I addressed just what your talking about with the food, because I found those exact same links! Definitly carelessness is responsible for most of the attacks.
Timbokhan,
I hope you know I meant no offense. I have no idea if there are any grizzlies in CO at the present time, but I've been around way too long and seen too many things, to 100% rule it out.
Take a look at how many mountain ranges in WYO that are filled with grizzly bear, connect to mountian ranges in CO. All a bear has to do is wander south on those WYO mountains and he/she can easily end up in CO.
The last gizzly killed in CO in 1979 was an older female that had given birth several times. DOW said she didnt exist until some one she was killing, killed her. I'm just saying..........
I hope you know I meant no offense. I have no idea if there are any grizzlies in CO at the present time, but I've been around way too long and seen too many things, to 100% rule it out.
Take a look at how many mountain ranges in WYO that are filled with grizzly bear, connect to mountian ranges in CO. All a bear has to do is wander south on those WYO mountains and he/she can easily end up in CO.
The last gizzly killed in CO in 1979 was an older female that had given birth several times. DOW said she didnt exist until some one she was killing, killed her. I'm just saying..........
jeremiahjj
Member
Forget the gun
I'd go with the moderator's earlier response. Take whatever sidearm you don't mind carrying all day and spend the time making whoopee with the little lady. I live in Teller County, Colorado, and frequently take my ATV into the High Country. Being a retired cop, my weapon is always along but I don't even think about it because carrying it is second nature for me. I've never been accosted by anything, animal or otherwise, and I hope it stays that way. About the only thing I'd be concerned about would be some jerk-off wanting to show how tough he was, but I've not seen one of these even.
I'd go with the moderator's earlier response. Take whatever sidearm you don't mind carrying all day and spend the time making whoopee with the little lady. I live in Teller County, Colorado, and frequently take my ATV into the High Country. Being a retired cop, my weapon is always along but I don't even think about it because carrying it is second nature for me. I've never been accosted by anything, animal or otherwise, and I hope it stays that way. About the only thing I'd be concerned about would be some jerk-off wanting to show how tough he was, but I've not seen one of these even.
Richard.Howe
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All of my NW Colorado and 14'ers hiking is done with a G19 in tow. Toss it in a Safepacker, put it on your back pack's left shoulder strap at waist level, and concentrate on the beauty of your surroundings!
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