My new deep woods pack gun experience...

[RoostRider]

Lets start this out with a little background....

I grew up with all kinds of guns, hunting, and living in the deep woods in Northern MN. I feel comfortable with any handgun less than a .50 (I hate those things).

We have an area called the BWCAW (Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness), that I love to frequent. The BWCA is very very remote (around 1 million sq/acres I believe) with no mechanical, motor or road access (standard federal "Wilderness" designation). It is inhabited by all of the standards of Northern Minnesota, which includes amongst its large game Moose, Deer, Coyotes, Wolves, and Bear, as well as the occasional feral redneck with an attitude.

I have been deep woods remote camping in this area since a child, well over 20 years (not to date myself too much... lol). I have hunted the area as a kid through adult, and have even done some successful bear hunting in the BWCA (including taking a 450+ lb chocolate brown Black Bear).

It should be understood that this type of remote camping requires you to carry everything you bring across some pretty hazardous and sometimes quite long portages, and it has to fit into my kayak without causing problems or being vulnerable to loss or weather while still being accessible on the water. It also has to be able to deal with being beaten/droped/submerged without me or the gun getting too upset.

I have always carried a firearm with me on my non hunting excursions into the wild. The firearm I have chosen has changed many many times over the years. I have brought along everything from an AR-7 (ultralight pack rifle in .22- not enough power) to a 12 ga. shotgun (too large to pack well), to a S&W SS 686 .357 mag. (close but still a hassle to carry and weighs a lot), to a full size 9mm semi-auto (hard to deal with in the weather/dark/cold/rain/sleet/snow/mud).

I was consulting some threads on this board regarding firearm choice for long haul packing in deep woods.... I took the useful input and ignored the silly battles about caliber vs weight and thought about my requirements, my knowledge, and my experience and concluded that it was silly that I didn't have a snub nosed ultra light SS .38 special to carry with me on the water and trails.

I also wanted a better, more concealable SD gun for around the big city where I now live.

In comes my new Taurus 851 UL with covered hammer.... This is a snub nosed 5 shot SS/alloy .38 with a covered hammer (just a knurled top exposed on the hammer) which can be used in DA or SA (if your thumb can take it). I picked up a molded plastic paddle holster for my deep woods, and a IWB holster for in town (concealed)....

I can't be happier with my choice. This gun is really nice and light (lighter than anything I've brought before with the possible exception of the .22). It didn't cost a fortune, so I don't feel real bad about it being exposed to the abuse. It is stainless and alloy, so it wont rust or corrode easily. It is .38 special and capable of +P, so it has what I consider to be ample power for everything I might encounter (a little light for Bear/Moose, but considering I would only fire at point blank, it should do the trick). I am pretty happy with the quality of the gun (I have never owned a Taurus before). And it is small enough that I can keep it right there on my side even in the kayak and not get in the way. The molded plastic paddle holster holds that gun in there really really well (too well for normal SD carry in my opinion) great for on the rough trail and getting in and out of the Yak.

I have hunted Black Bear intentionally with a .357 mag., and I am comfortable that, used well this would do the job at the ranges we hunt Bear here. I think the .38 at point blank should have what I need without the overkill, overweight, oversize, of most other powerful options.

I don't want this to turn into a pi$$ing contest about proper caliber or the quality of brands. So this is just a thread about my experience, which is pretty extensive in the deep woods and with firearms. Hopefully someone will find it useful in looking for knowledge on this subject.

 

[David E]

Personally, I want my sidearm in the woods have more capability than any .38 snubby.

Waiting until anything is "point blank" before you think the chosen gun/caliber will be effective doesn't strike me as the best tactic.

I'm curious, tho, what exactly, do you anticipate this gun being able to do for you in the remote woods? Load of choice? How many rounds do you take with you? Maybe you'll come up with something I've not considered.

I hope your choice works out well for you.

.

 

[vicdotcom]

I personally believe that a .38 special is a fine choice for a woods gun. I have carried one in the woods for many years. Easily packable, concealable, and comfortable to hike with! I think that is the major requirement when thinking of a woods gun.

You will CERTAINLY be doing more hiking than you will be shooting.

For me I used it as a "in case I run into bandits" type deal or the occasional animal deterrant. I also agree with your "point blank" statement. Although I would probably shoot a warning shot at 30yards and at a 5 yard distance or so for a charge. From my experience, a gun while hiking is a "just in case" measure and not a daily use tool. Not a hunting implement or a hand cannon to blast everything away. But in an emergency where something is better than nothing. And of all my years backpacking, the onlytime I ever pulled it out was because I thought I saw a bobcat. But I did keep at ready when I heard other hikers I didnt know nearby.

I also carried it fully loaded and packed only 3 extra rounds.

 

[mljdeckard]

I told my first sergeant that a long gun was to bulky to camp and hike with. He didn't say anything, just walked away. (?!)

This is a long explanation to get to the part where you decided that you would rather carry something too small to really help you from the dangerous things you might encounter where you will be hiking. If it is too small to help you, it doesn't matter how comfortable it is. Wolf? Bear? The last thing I would think as I pulled the trigger is "Man, I really, REALLY wish I had brought something bigger."

 

[sophijo]

woods gun

Mine is a SW 649 .357. Carries well and I don't notice the wt re all SS.

 

[vicdotcom]

If it is too small to help you, it doesn't matter how comfortable it is. Wolf? Bear? The last thing I would think as I pulled the trigger is "Man, I really, REALLY wish I had brought something bigger."

To each their own. But I would rather be thinking "This is what I have to use and This is what I need to do to get out of the situation". Wishing for something isnt going to help you a lick in a bad situation and places false confidence in something other than your own skills.

Part of hiking and backpacking is to hike and backpack. You will run into wildlife and should have a plan accordingly. You aren't there for hunting or shooting. If it was a hunting trip, then something more may be in order. Being mentally prepared and being resourcefull with what you have is part of the whole backpacking and hiking experience.

 

[GooseGestapo]

I concur.
My "kit" gun, is an S&W mod337Ti, with 3" bbl and adjustable sights. The one before they started putting the fiber optic sights on it.

With a +p loading of a 150gr Cast HP-GC, at ~900fps, it's a tad much on recoil, but very, very accurate, light, and there when/if I need it. I have a Pachmyer Gripper-J on it so it has an outstanding feel and controls the stout recoil well.

I've got a 642 (no adj. sights- but shoots very close to sights), a mod 37 .22lr, KelTec P32, 2.5" 686, Ruger Redhawk, and the #2 choice, a Ruger Sec.6-4" which rates a "heavy" second choice, even edging out the S&W 617 6".

It's the gun you got, when you need one!- that counts.....
If you got one, you probably won't NEED one.....
The 2-3/4lb Redhawk in .45Colt is NICE, but the 3" Ultra-lite "Smith" will be there when the need arises.
I hike and trout fish is some of the National Forrests of N. Georgia, Tenn. and N.W. N. Carolina. Some fishing holes require a hike in one day, hike out the next.

Like every where else, it's the feral humans that pose the greatest threat.....

 

[oldrevolverguy]

Back pack/hiking gun

I believe whatever makes you feel confident and allows you to enjoy the trip is what you should carry. For me that is a Glock 29 with DoubleTap 200 grain Hornady JHPs. It is light, compact, the Tennifer finish is largely impervious to the elements, and with 11 rounds in the gun and a 15 round magazine on my belt, I feel confident in the field.

If the gentlemen who started the thread feels that way about his 38, more power to him.

 

[DBR]

RoostRider:

Given your choice of firearm, you might want to consider loading it with Buffalo Bore 150gr hardcast wad cutters. These at least have the penetration required for some of your potential targets.

Here: http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=23

 

[DMZ]

I backpack in the Wenaha-Tucannon Wilderness and the Eagle Cap Wilderness.

My carry gun is a 3" .357. A Taurus 605. I carry full power 158gr XTP's with it.



Oh yeah, I also carry a Ruger Bearcat with a box of Rem Yellowjackets in an exterior pack pocket.

 

[RoostRider]

Thanks DBR... I will look into those... but I also reload, so I will be putting together 'special' loads for use in the woods.... a hardcast wadcutter might be just the ticket.... got any recipes I should look into?

As to the other question about my ammo choice, I think that covers it.... as for my first trip with it, all I had was some SD hollow points because I haven't had time to work up a load... not ideal I know, but better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick....

As to waiting until it is point blank.... well, the .38 will work reliably on anything smaller than a black bear.... I know bears pretty decent (no Timothy Treadwell mind you... lol)... I have experienced and hunted them my whole life.... I have yet to see one that wasn't more worried about me than I was about him... an occasional charge bluff happens out of fear, but that is not, in my mind, reason enough to shoot a black bear.... if he really does charge (very very remote... much less likely than a feral redneck), he will be on me quicker than snot, and point blank will be my only option....

Like a SD shooting, you can't just blast anything that threatens your 'personal space'...

I have seen Black Bears run away after being hit with a 30-06, and I have seen them dropped with a .357 or a well placed arrow from some pretty decent distance... so having a gun that will 'drop whatever I might encounter no matter what' just isn't going to happen where I choose to go for fun....

This one allows me to defend myself against any forseeable problem with relative confidence..... If I wanted to be 'perfectly safe' I would stay in a brick home behind a steel door....

 

[David E]

How many rounds of ammo do you take for it?

I've found the MTM "Ammo Wallet" to be a good way to pack extra ammo afield for my revolvers, backing up a speedloader or two.

 

[jpwilly]

While the Taurus 851 UL is a nice carry piece. And well placed 38's could be enough. I just don't think having only 5 shots before reloading would be ideal. I'd carry my Taurus PT145 Mil Pro 45ACP with fmj 230gr +P 10+1rnds first.

 

[DBR]

Any hollow point would be a bad choice for the range of uses you may face. Even in a heavier caliber. The BB 150gr wad cutter I recommended penetrates 20-24" in calibrated gello and produces a permanent wound channel approximately equal to 45 ACP 230gr ball ammo. They clock 860+ fps from a 1 7/8" S&W J frame. I think you will have a hard time equaling this with safe reloads. There is also the controversial issue of possibly using reloads for self defense against a human problem.

I have shot Russian Boar with 158gr Federal 357 mag HP ammo and the only shot that impressed the pig was the one behind its ear. I have all of the bullets showing picture perfect expansion.

With an under powered gun penetration and shot placement is everything.

Added: If the gun was my choice I would consider a Glock 27 with 180gr truncated cone flat points. That is if I was to be a minimalist in the preservation of life category.

 

[RoostRider]

DBR- I see your point..... I will definately take a look at those....

David E- I only brought 20 rounds.... again, store SD ammo, which I admit is no where near the best for the application.... 1 speed loader.... (not likely to be needed no matter what happens).. in the future I will be running something with a bit more penetration....

JPWilly- the 5 shots is something I had to compromise for weight considerations (it also makes it a better concealed gun in town).... not ideal for firepower, but again, we face the fact that nothing is perfect... even 10 rounds of 30-06 poorly placed might not stop an angry bear.

ScareyH22a- you clearly don't read real well.... as noted earlier, this purchase was well thought out over months.... not myopic (did you have to use a thesaurus for that one?).... this weapon has to be a compromise, because you and your long guns wont cut it in a kayak (unless you'd rather be unarmed because your weapon is broken down and in a bulkhead, when confronted with the biggest potential threat- the feral redneck with attitude)... this is why I get to go out and have these experiences and you get to armchair quarterback about my choices... lol.... so next time you dont want to 'be a dick' read the whole thing first, think about the reality of what you're proposing, and then just shut up.... that might help reduce your 'dickiness', as opposed to proposing ludicrous unworkable ideas that leave me WAY more labored and at least slightly more vulnerable most of the time.... while blatantly turning my thread into another stupid this caliber vs. that caliber babble fest, as I asked you not to.... (for the record, many many many 'adrenaline filled aggressors' have been stopped with a .38 special.... sorry to burst your bubble.... and some haven't been stopped with a .308.... comparison = failed pitifully)

Like I noted, there is no weapon made that can be portaged and used out of a kayak that can reliably kill a bear every single time.... not one.... the .357 so many would tout as the best gun for the problem has only marginally better characteristics at the ranges killing an aggressive bear would require, and only 1 more round in the chamber (reloading a gun while being gnawed on by a bear isn't likely going to happen), while being a bit heavier and bulkier and much more unwieldy in rapid fire.... a missed shot is nothing more than a loud noise, and that would have to have already failed before I would need a gun....

Not to be a dick, but I am betting I know a LOT more about the problems I might encounter in the deep woods of northern MN than you do... and probably a good shot more about what works and doesn't in a deep woods pack in situation (given I have been doing it my whole life).... including the bears, and what it might take to deter an attack from big game in the area (99.9% of the time a loud yell does the trick).... and even what it might take to kill one, if the need arose (being my hunting partners and I have killed them personally with everything imaginable aside from spears or jumping on their backs with knives)....

You might not feel safe with a howitzer in tow in the wilderness.... I'm not worried about how safe you feel.... as noted, this is my experience that brought about my choice and this is why..... and there will always be the yahoo who thinks he knows better.... always.... *cough*he usually has never been through it though....

I seriously have to laugh when I think of someone actually distance packing a large long arm because they are afraid of bears and think a long arm will help in some way... never seen it, and probably never will.... people who think like that don't last long out there in the deep woods... they are usually confined to within 2 miles of the car because they are "so prepared" they can't get any further.... lol

 

[ScareyH22A]

Sorry that I got you all butt hurt. If you feel that your thread title and your experience lead you to chosing a .38 makes any sort of sense, please feel good about your purchase. Like I said, I wouldn't. Have a nice day

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I'm not one of those who jumps on the "You need a 454 Casull or 460 Magnum in the woods" crowd. That said I wouldn't be comfortable carrying a snub nose .38 Special for woods protection either. I would think a .357 Magnum would be a better choice unless it was for 2 legged critters only.

I don't know what your budget is but S&W makes a few ultralight .357 Magnum revolver which carry 7 and 8 rounds, that would be my choice. I have no problem with the snub nose in the city for SD, I carry one. Since you said you want a light gun I think I would consider a S&W M327 PD. It's a very light 4" .357 Magnum that holds 8 rounds and weighs only 24.3oz. That sounds like just the right gun for what you are talking about. Load it up with some hard cast wide meplat rounds and you're good to go.

 

[Aka Zero]

I hear at some point some people sawed of mosin nagants into "pistols" Might make a good woods gun. And at $300 even after the tax stamp, it's a deal. Ammo is cheap too.

But personally, I would carry something with more rounds. If I have to take something down, 16 rounds of 9mm feels better than 6 shots of 38, 357, 44.
And you can reload 16 more if if it's still moving.

 

[loop]

I once shot a jackrabbit through the heart with a .45 ACP. The poor, disoriented animal ran straight at me and began trying to climb up my leg. I whacked it in the head with the slide of my pistol and it tumbled to the ground.

It was dead long before I hit it in the head. It just did not know it.

A gun is not a sure stop no matter what you have or where you shoot your target.

I dressed out that rabbit and it had no heart. It was running on adrenaline. It did not fall until I took out the central nervous system with a whack to the head from the slide of my pistol.

There is no such thing as "enough" gun. There is no such thing as a magic bullet.

Choose what makes you comfortable and practice your marksmanship. That is all you can do.

 

[DuLL_ExIsTeNz]

I see nothing wrong with a .38 for the BWCA. If it's good enough for a CCW, then it's good enough for the BWCA. While some would want something more potent or have more ammo, I also believe you'd have more chance having to use it against a feral redneck (as RoostRider put it) as you would against any game.

On a semi-related note, I'd love to get back to the BWCA. It's been quite a few years since I've gone up there.

 

[Holgersen]

You should bring a tank. That way you would have enough gun and you wouldn't have to walk anywhere.

I hike a lot as well and I would be more worried about human threats than animal threats. There are fairly simple ways to keep bears away. Namely a bear bell or just talking. I'm sure most of you guys know the other rules. Do wolves really bother people unless their rabid?

Just be thankful you can carry a firearm leagally in a place like that. Unfortunatly for me everywhere I can go hiking around here is a no go for firearms. Sure makes me feel safe being alone in the woods with no one to help me for miles around with just a walking stick to defend myself with.

 

[RoostRider]

Thanks guys..... I have to admit that this gun isn't 'everything and more' but I think Loop hit the nail on the head... nothing will stop everything, or even anything, everytime- so choices have to be made....

As noted previously, I have a SS S&W 686 that I used to take on some of these excursions, but it was cumbersome enough that it wasn't always where it was handy (no side strapping in the kayak without substantial discomfort, and a shoulder holster with that gun got to be a bit tedious quickly)... I felt that left me more vulnerable than a slightly less powerful round that never leaves my hip... especially considering the human factor being the most probable of issues....

AKA Zero- As I stated, I have carried a full size 9mm (16 +1) in the past, but it suffered much of the same problems as the big Smith revolver, and I didn't like having to deal with it in foul weather and given the conditions it encounters during a week or two in the deep woods.... I just had to wonder if a revolver wasn't more reliable in these conditions... I figure if 5 shots doesn't do it I'm probably well over screwed at that point anyways...

Here is a couple of pictures from a gun site of the weapon....




You can't really see the knurled hammer top in these photos, but the hammer is just covered on the sides and has a knurled end you can (feasibly) slide back with your thumb to function in SA mode (if you could also flick a lighter with a 12 lb pull...lol).. so the hammer cant hang up on a pocket lining/clothes or the such.. I might have preferred the DA only model, which has a completely concealed and covered hammer... that would keep gunk from getting in there....

One down side of this gun is the trigger pull.... I'm guessing 12-14 lbs, and that is a LOT.... but for the purpose it seems better to have a hard trigger pull (no safety on a revolver)... I am definitely going to have to practice my instinctive shooting with this piece because of that trigger pull...

Holgersen- Thankful I am, not only that I have such a great remote area so close, and that I can carry a firearm to protect myself, but also for the great hunting and fishing it provides.... everyplace has it's ups and downs, glad I get to use one of the biggest 'ups' MN has to offer... the wild...

ScareyH22A- no harm done man, my butt is just fine.... just next time read the thread, comprehend the thread, and then look up the definition of a word like myopic before you use it and you won't come across like the dick... as for your issue with butts, well, I don't know what to say man, aside from quit talking about mine...

I still get a good chuckle out of thinking about you portaging a long gun back and forth because of your fear of bear attack... and the fact that a long gun would be less useful than a .22 pistol at the ranges it would be needed for a bear (because the barrel crown of a rifle would be past the bears head)... clearly you don't get out in the woods much, or you don't go far from your car, which is fine, but makes you pretty ill equipped to make suggestions in this thread.... but eh, there's one in every bunch.... heck, I'm surprised there's only one in this thread.... lol

 

[amd6547]

As you have found out, most internet gun folks have zero knowledge of what it means to backpack with a firearm, and even fewer have paddled a kayak into the wilderness. I've done both, and say the 38snub is a great choice.
My second favorite is a Tokarev pistol in 7.62x25. It is a sturdy, simple, flat and compact battle-tested pistol with Browning pedigree. They are around fairly cheap, right now, the ammo is also available cheap, and the round has excellent penetrative abilities. It also can reach out to 100yds, if you know how to shoot. Eight rounds in the mag, and a couple spare mags makes for a light load.
Wish I could join you on a paddle trip up there...never made it to BWCA, but I have sea kayaked a lot.

 

[ScareyH22A]

RoostRider. I apologize for being a dick. Honestly. Sorry, I came into your thread and immaturely stirred the pot without reading and comprehending your original post. I'm sorry.

As for the Taurus firearm itself, I feel that there's comparably weighted guns with more firepower out there. According to Taurus, that gun weighs 16.8oz and is 6.5x1.346x4.28 inches in dimension. It's a 5 shot .38 special ofcourse. The best thing going for it imho is the price.

A Glock G26 weighs 26.10oz loaded with 10 rounds of 9mm. Approximately 9oz more than an empty Taurus. It's dimensions are smaller at 6.29x1.18x4.17. I personally hate Glocks but I just mention it as an example and these seem to be very popular. Their subcompact line comes in every common semiauto caliber including 10mm, .357, and 45GAP.

I personally carry a Kahr PM9 and it's even smaller and lighter with a long but very smooth DA trigger. If weight and size is such an issue, I think there are plenty of better choices out there is all I'm saying. Just looking out for your well being old man.

BTW, kayaking is fun fun fun! I've only had the pleasure of doing it a couple of times here in the Pacific in San Diego but I can't wait to get back out there. Doing it in the wilderness, I'd be content just dying right then and there.

 

[Ed Ames]

If it is accurate it sounds good to me.

I have fired a smith airweight .38sp that could reliably touch targets out to 100 yards. It wouldn't be my first choice (I like my revolvers in .45 or .32) but I know I could hunt deer with it as well as some folks with a .460.