Is a gun always loaded?

[Gryffydd]

I don't check it to confirm the obvious, though, I check it to reinforce the safety procedure.

I think this is an excellent point. What you do while thinking will eventually be what you do without thinking.

There are circumstances in which a competent gun owner must be confident of the ability to clear and unload a firearm, open the action, visually and manually check the chamber, and then behave safely in a way that would be unsafe if the gun were loaded.

This perfectly illustrates one of the concepts I was hoping this thread would explore. My thought being that the best safety rules and practices are based in reality and follow the rules of logic.

I'm not against "Always treat a gun as if it were loaded until you have personally verified that it is unloaded (and you know enough about guns to safely make that judgment), then you can safely perform certain necessary functions that wouldn't be proper with a loaded gun, while still following the rules of muzzle control as much as is practical in order to reinforce safety habits" being shortened down to "Always treat a gun as if it were loaded" for casual conversation. But when it's the specific topic of conversation among a group like this I'd expect to see a bit more common sense applied. Maybe its a personality trait of mine, but I'm much more apt to follow a rule that actually is based in reality than one that has been sensationalized in order to scare me into being safe.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

All guns are always loaded.

"Most accidents are with "unloaded" guns."

A good quote, why you should always treat all firearms as loaded, always.

I'm much more apt to follow a rule that actually is based in reality than one that has been sensationalized in order to scare me into being safe.

It is based in reality. You could check the chamber, check the magazine, and see light from the end of the bbl, and still have missed a round.

My rule is if it’s not disasembled it’s loaded

Some firearms can still fire while disasembled. For instance, if I took down my 10/22, so it has no stock, it can still fire. (Although it might be bad for it, and unsafe, it will still fire)


For instance, I have a bolt action .22, not even a repeater. I went to load it for shooting, and a live round flew out. My obeying the safety rules may have saved a life.

 

[db_tanker]

didn't read every single post but really there is only one answer.

yes. always.

why?

well...say you are cleaning your smoke-wagon and naturally you check it thoroughly before starting and YOU know its cleared. Your friend comes over. Does he know its loaded or cleared? NO. Unthinkingly you "spray" him with the barrel...what is he to think? How is he to react?

MTCW
D

 

[PT1911]

oh..sorry... at second glance... I can see a shell beginning to materialize in my single shot 12ga... who needs to reload when bullets just appear like this..


always treat as loaded is not the same as is always loaded.... I dont care how it is justified or explained.. no round in the chamber, not loaded, but not an excuse to be careless with the gun.

 

[Chrissa]

I am inclined to agree with PT1911, among others. Just as a matter of course, I treat all guns as loaded until proven otherwise - and then continue exercise a "better safe than sorry" attitude.

 

[Gryffydd]

didn't read every single post but really there is only one answer. yes. always.

But what then is the question? It's certainly not "Is a gun always loaded?" because the one and only answer to that question is "No."

well...say you are cleaning your smoke-wagon and naturally you check it thoroughly before starting and YOU know its cleared. Your friend comes over. Does he know its loaded or cleared? NO. Unthinkingly you "spray" him with the barrel...what is he to think? How is he to react?

He's supposed to tell you you're an idiot. Accepting the reality that some times we must do things that one would not do with a loaded gun does not include inflicting emotional distress on someone else by pointing a gun at them even if they KNOW it's unloaded too, nor does it excuse thoughtless muzzle control.

 

[HammerBite]

Here is what Grant Cunningham has to say about the matter.

 

[Gryffydd]

From the Grant Cunningham link:

While Rule #1 logically admits that there is such a thing as an unloaded gun, it asks us to pretend that it doesn't really exist. This is important, as the rule only makes sense if the state of being 'unloaded' exists, but it implores us to make believe that such a state doesn't really exist. This situation is called cognitive dissonance: holding two contradictory beliefs simultaneously. It's a state of mind that humans don't tolerate all that well.

However, he goes on to say

Never point a gun - any gun, loaded or unloaded - at anything you are not willing to shoot.
There are no exceptions, and thus less chance for the accidents that usually result from them.

Which I think in a way is falling into the same logical fallacy he's speaking against. What about checking revolver timing? Saying there are no exceptions when there clearly are exceptions generates the exact same cognitive dissonance.

 

[PT1911]

for those who think a gun is always loaded, drop the mag out of your simi-auto, rack the slide, and go about your day with that gun... when a BG does his thing, be confident that your loaded gun will take care of business... I am sure that will work out well.

 

[jbkebert]

Actually, a large number of people have said that. Whether they intended to say that or not, that's what their words meant. Remember, it's never *just* semantics. Until humans become telepathic the only thing telling us what someone is trying to say is what they say.

I am dearly sorry my ESP only seems to work in a room full of 11 year olds.

So yes sir when you are sure your gun is unloaded. Please practice common sense and muzzle control while handeling your unloaded gun. I am sure you have been handeling guns for ______ years and you no more than anyone how to treat a firearm.

 

[AKElroy]

Always Loaded?

It is in my house. Days run together; guns get handled; loaded, unloaded, loaded again; I have had occasions where I was CERTAIN I had JUST unloaded. Turns out that was the day before, and that did not click in my tired state of mind. Racked the slide, out pops a 165gr golddot. I would have bet my life that gun was empty. With regard to handling, they are always loaded.

 

[akodo]

I don't always treat a gun like it is loaded. It's not practical to do so. For example, when I field strip some of my guns you have to pull the trigger to do so. Do I point it at my head and pull the trigger? Of course not. But I do pull the trigger inside my house which I wouldn't do with a loaded gun. Therefore I do treat it different than I would a gun that was loaded.

If you know it is unloaded, why NOT put it to your head when pulling the trigger to field strip? Or more realistically, why not have it pointed in the general direction of your children playing when you pull the trigger.

Further, if it wouldn't cause a poop-storm with the landlord and neighbors, and probably the police, hell yes I'd set up my own little shooting range!

I see nothing wrong with pulling the trigger on a gun in your own home.

I do adhere to the 'Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target and you are ready for the gun to fire' as well.

This means when I field strip my gun, because I assume that even though I just checked, maybe I was wrong (humans are experts at fooling themselves) theirfore I always think 'I could be wrong, theirfore I will treat this gun as loaded. If it is loaded, what is the safest spot for this bullet to go?'

I then put my sights on that spot, and pull the trigger.

Which I think in a way is falling into the same logical fallacy he's speaking against. What about checking revolver timing?

What about it? Just make sure no one is standing in the direction the muzzle is pointed.

 

[Gryffydd]

I am dearly sorry my ESP only seems to work in a room full of 11 year olds.

I don't think you understood my point. What I was trying to say is that when people use the words "ALWAYS treat a gun as if it's loaded." That indicates that they do not condone dry-firing or disassembling certain pistols, because those are things you wouldn't do with a loaded gun.My point was that we can't know that what they *really* meant was "ALWAYS treat a gun as if it's loaded--except when you know it's not and you want to practice dry firing in your bedroom."

I am sure you have been handeling guns for ______ years and you no more than anyone how to treat a firearm.

This isn't about how much I know about guns or how I handle them. It's not even really about how anyone handles them. It's more about how we think about safety procedures, how we discuss them, how we frame our ideas about them, and how all of that affects our actions. Because clearly there's some dissonance between what people are saying and what people are doing. I'm sorry you missed that and thought it was about handling guns safely or not.

 

[Gryffydd]

If you know it is unloaded, why NOT put it to your head when pulling the trigger to field strip? Or more realistically, why not have it pointed in the general direction of your children playing when you pull the trigger.

In answer to that I'll quote heron again

My Saiga is in the basement, with the top cover, recoil spring and bolt carrier removed (as well as the furniture) but I still observe muzzle discipline when handling it -- for the same reason, to reinforce the safety procedure.

What about it? Just make sure no one is standing in the direction the muzzle is pointed.

You mean no one but yourself as you stare down the bore? From the Revolver Checkout sticky

Timing

5) You really, REALLY want an unloaded gun for this one. This is where the light comes in. With the gun STILL held in full lockup, trigger back after lowering the hammer by thumb, you want to shine a light right into the area at the rear of the cylinder near the firing pin. You then look down the barrel . You're looking to make sure the cylinder bore lines up with the barrel. Check every cylinder - that means putting the gun in full lockup for each cylinder before lighting it up.

You're looking for the cylinder and barrel holes to line up perfectly, it's easy to eyeball if there's even a faint light source at the very rear of both bores. And with no rounds present, it's generally easy to get some light in past where the rims would be.

 

[adrenalyn]

The question wasnt "should we treat a gun as if it were loaded?" Based on the question, I will say no. Of course not. If its loaded, its not empty. and if its empty, its not loaded, and empty isnt loaded. and loaded isnt empty.........man, i think im getting confused.

 

[jbkebert]

Gryffydd

Sorry I did misunderstand your point and I am sorry.

The point I am trying to make is that the reason we teach it that way is that it works. I stated earlier that during one segment of the class we have a couple tables of guns and let the students come up and ask questions. WE sit there and watch but its is not the students that violate safety. It is the parents that have been handeling guns for years. The students ask questions but rarley touch. If so they almost always ask if they are permitted to. The parents grab them without the common courtesy of asking {which pisses me off} but thats another thread. They are just so sure they know what they are doing they point a gun at a person. NO it is not intentional but it happens. We can debat all night the ins and outs of the rule and of course there are times when you act if they are not loaded. When you clean your gun, when you practice dry firing but the main thing is to be conscience of how it is being handled. I can't change how the test is written so I will continue to teach the golden rule of firearm safety.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

Timing

5) You really, REALLY want an unloaded gun for this one. This is where the light comes in. With the gun STILL held in full lockup, trigger back after lowering the hammer by thumb, you want to shine a light right into the area at the rear of the cylinder near the firing pin. You then look down the barrel . You're looking to make sure the cylinder bore lines up with the barrel. Check every cylinder - that means putting the gun in full lockup for each cylinder before lighting it up.

You're looking for the cylinder and barrel holes to line up perfectly, it's easy to eyeball if there's even a faint light source at the very rear of both bores. And with no rounds present, it's generally easy to get some light in past where the rims would be.

If I for some reason did that, I would not look down the bbl while pulling the trigger. I would pull the trigger, wait 70 seconds, and then look.

 

[Blackbeard]

You never clean a loaded gun, so if a gun is always loaded how do you clean it?

 

[Luis Leon]

Don't know if its always loaded, but should always be treated as loaded.

best regards,

Luis Leon

 

[Gryffydd]

Sorry I did misunderstand your point and I am sorry.

Absolutely no problem. I love a good discussion, and in a good discussion misunderstandings often happen.

We can debate all night the ins and outs of the rule

Sounds like a good way to spend an evening
I think you made another good point indirectly, by putting the focus back on two other groups besides hardcore gun hobbyists: those who know nothing, and those who know nothing but don't know it. maybe the fact that I deal with these groups rarely compared to others here gives me a more limited perspective*.

*Though I NEVER meant to say that anyone knows enough or is "good enough" or is "professional enough" to behave in a way that is less safe than we would expect a newbie to.

 

[Isher]

My simple rule.

Unload it before you clean it.

isher

 

[Gryffydd]

My simple rule. Unload it before you clean it.

How do you reconcile that with voting Yes in this poll?
OK I'll stop now

 

[jbkebert]

WRS840 I dont want you to go without your prize.

 

[Straight Shooter]

Is a gun always loaded? There can only be 1 true answer to that and that is no. But that is not the point of the rules.

The point of the rules is procedural training. Repetition builds subconscious reactions.

This is the same as practicing your perfect draw a thousand times. Because when your under stress you will fall back on your repetitive training. You don't have to practice a perfect draw every time but when it counts you will draw like you've been practicing.

Rule 1 is not to protect you the moment after you just checked the chamber, it's to make sure that checking is second nature.

Getting ready to field strip? Check it.
Did you leave the room? Check it again.
Haven't touched the gun since you cleaned it last week? Check it again.

Is this necessary? Yes absolutely for repetitive training.

Your mind can lapse, ever lose your keys and swear you left them in the kitchen?

 

[Isher]

Gryffydd -

Quote:
My simple rule. Unload it before you clean it.
How do you reconcile that with voting Yes in this poll?
OK I'll stop now


Seems to me you are being intentionally obtuse.

A gun is always loaded until you go through the

Formal protocol of unloading it.

Yes?

Or do you have some brilliant solution as to

Unloading a gun without unloading the gun?


isher