Is keeping "1 in the chamber" a bad idea??

[Nushif]

I think at this point you should consider the GP not yur gun ... But your wife's gun. Hand it to her, tell her "The ya go! I am way more interested in my XYZ so yeah. Yours."

Sounds like this is the case anyways, so why this pretense of the gun being yours in tne first place? I sometimes plink with my wife's guns, she sometimes plinks with mine, but we all know if it has a Beretta on the gun it's hers.

Remember: she is her own person, responsible for her own half of her own security and her own gun. If she does that with a Ruger GP ... Good on her, frankly when it comes to home security I sleep just as well if my wife has her Maverick O/U or her Beretta 70 in .32 ... Because I know she has her own security covered.nand that is the best feeling you can have. Way better than nagging at her for her taste in personal firearms.

 

[Pyro]

Nope, it's actually a good idea.

 

[Sgt_R]

typically, the whole point of doing that is so you can pick it up and fire it at a moment's notice. So why bother with that and keep the gun under lock and key?

If he is anything like me, a young child running around the house forces you to lock em up.

Bingo. Our three year old knows exactly what she's supposed to do if she ever finds a gun: "Stop, don't touch it, and go find mommy or daddy." But she's still only three, so the guns stay locked up.

The one in the nightstand is stored in one of these, which is pretty fast once you practice with it. Not as fast as a gun sitting on top of the nightstand ready to go, but a whole lot safer if you have a curious toddler in the house.

R

 

[PT92]

Somebody asked me some time ago if I were standing in line at the grocery store and the guy in front on me had a .45 in a horizontal shoulder holster pointed directly at me in condition one, would I be nervous.

My answer is no--I have searched until I was blue in the face and cannot find one example of a condition one gun firing itself...?

-Cheers

 

[Oxide]

Three points I'd add.

1. While a Glock and other integral safety guns are safe from anything but inadvertent pulling of the trigger, they are not safe from that inadvertent trigger pull. Like that athlete Plaxico somebody did, he had his Glock in his pants, it slipped, he grabbed it by the trigger by mistake and shot himself. One must, with a Glock or Glock type weapon, have a good holster that protects the trigger. The holster protects the trigger, the rest of the gun protects it going off any other way. The only problem then is the reholstering process if you have your finger in the trigger guard. So says Ayoob, at any rate.

2. If the gun has a safety, the holster should cover it so it does not get brushed off. The 1911 on the previous page, with the grip safety, may be an exception, but I would prefer a sweatshield/safety protector over the end of the left side of the pistol.

3. Although striker fireds are all the rage, and single action 1911s are the classics, there are many pistols still traditional double action. I can carry my USP in condition one, hammer back, safety on. I can carry it condition two, hammer down, safety off, or on, or I can carry it condition three, without one in the chamber. I consider condition 3 to be overly disabled, but, if I prefer to not be in condition 1, then 2 is a good compromise. That is hard to do with a striker gun.

 

[Jonah71]

Except for the old '72 3 screw Ruger and my .22 target pistol, I keep them all fully loaded and chambered.

 

[HDCamel]

Colt saa and clones should never be carried with six rounds and the hammer at first notch. The first notch is only there to catch the hammer incase your thumb slips off before full cock.
Load six and keep it on the first notch, reach for it on the night stand and knock it hammer down onto the floor and you may end up taking a 45 to the ol kisser.
Hammer down on a empty chamber, heck you have to cock it to use it anyhow. If we can't get it done with 5 rounds of 45 colt then we did'nt bring enough gun. Be safe.

I guess this was directed at me?

I already said I carry it 5 up, but at night it's in a floor level drawer that's part of my bed frame and the way I pull it out is horizontally, so the likelyhood of it A: falling on the hammer and B: falling with enough force to break the hammer block is pretty low. So I keep it full.

 

[csa77]

I can only speak for myself but I carry a revolver(hammerless snub) mostly because I do feel safer having all cylinders loaded vs carrying pistol with one in the chamber.


other reasons would include
the reliability of follow up shots-ammo cant cause problems ftf/fte
no safety to deal with, just draw gun pull trigger.

 

[Skribs]

My reasoning for not keeping a round in the chamber isn't so much an issue of trusting myself or my equipment, as it is the result of understanding the OODA cycle.

If I need to draw my gun to save my life or another person's, it means someone is in the act of threatening my life or someone else's. That means I'm reacting to a situation, as opposed to having made a decision to kill someone, and then simply looking for the first person I see.

Based on my understanding of the OODA cycle, I'll never react to a threat quickly enough to neutralize it, because the enemy has already made up his mind to kill me. In other words, it doesn't matter whether my gun is holstered in position one, or if the magazine isn't even in it yet. Drawing and shooting will never be my first reaction. If it is, it's too late, and I'm dead.

Priority one is moving for cover. From there, ample time to draw and rack a slide exists (the rack takes less than one extra second). On the other hand, if you make priority one drawing and shooting, you already lost the gunfight. I'm not Wyatt Earp and you aren't either.

Bottom line is really, do whatever you feel comfortable doing. I know what my training has taught me, and I know where my training comes from, and how many people rely on it to keep them alive every single day. But if you want to carry position one, by all means, feel free.

All I'm saying is that once you have decided to act (to use OODA terms), you can act more quickly if there's a round in the chamber. If you think that having one in the pipe means you're just going to shoot people based on proximity when you draw, then it sounds like you don't trust yourself. All it means is that when you do decide to draw, you can do so one-handed and do not need the extra step of racking the slide, which can be advantageous when you have determined a threat exists.

Priority may be moving for cover, but it doesn't always happen perfect. If you can't move for cover, are you going to say "Plan A failed, better wait to get shot?" or are you going to do what you can to survive? I'm going to try a plan B, and I'm going to have a plan B ahead of time. Plan B is to draw without going for cover, and I want to plan ahead to make plan B work as good as possible without hindering plan A. Having one in the pipe doesn't hinder plan A, so it's a win/win.

ETA:

the reliability of follow up shots-ammo cant cause problems ftf/fte
no safety to deal with, just draw gun pull trigger.

Revolvers can FTF, and while they can't FTE in the terms of semi-auto, sometimes they can be a pain to pop out the old rounds to reload.
Also, most poly guns (such as a Glock or an XD) have no manual safety, just draw and fire. Revolvers and semi-autos can be about equal in the regards that you mentioned.

 

[genstab]

So there are semiautos that will fire a first shot double action without first cocking the slide? I didn't know that. They would be the safest to carry one in the chamber with- just the same as a revolver because the hammer is not cocked back.

I have FN HP-DAs with decockers so they're almost as good. After cocking the slide I can decdock the hammer, but when I pull the trigger in double action it will fire. I don't have to go around with the hammer back- just the same as a revolver. It doesn't bother me a bit to have one in the chamber of these guns because you have to pull the trigger to fire- just like a revolver.

Best regards,
Bill in Cleveland

 

[Skribs]

You have to rack the slide to get one into the chamber. A DA/SA gun will uncock when you manually rack the slide, and fire the first shot double-action. You can manually cock for single action. A DA only gun will not cock when you rack the slide, but will only cock when you pull the trigger. A Striker-Fired will half-cock when the slide goes back, and finish when you pull the trigger.

When I put a magazine into my XDm with the chamber empty, the first thing I do is rack the slide to put one in the pipe. That way its just as ready as a DAO revolver. I can leave it in my Gunvault or put it on my hip and know that if I need to use it, it's ready.

 

[Warp]

So there are semiautos that will fire a first shot double action without first cocking the slide? I didn't know that. They would be the safest to carry one in the chamber with- just the same as a revolver because the hammer is not cocked back.

Not necessarily. With a double action revolver the gun is 'safe', you pull the trigger to fire a round, the gun returns to its 'safe' condition.

With the DA/SA semi autos, at least all that I am aware of, after that first DA shot when the firearm remains cocked in SA mode it is not safe. That is, if it were to be dropped it may fire. It must be decocked.

 

[RatherNotSay]

Not necessarily. With a double action revolver the gun is 'safe', you pull the trigger to fire a round, the gun returns to its 'safe' condition.

With the DA/SA semi autos, at least all that I am aware of, after that first DA shot when the firearm remains cocked in SA mode it is not safe. That is, if it were to be dropped it may fire. It must be decocked.

If it's in the hands of a person in panic stress will reduce fine motor skills and with the adrenaline that action is going to feel like a competition trigger even with the...what? 8lbs of pull on some revolvers?

Unless the gal is an experienced soldier lol.

 

[Lost Sheep]

Skribs and Warp - more action types than you imagine

Unlike 50 or so years ago, there are so many variations of action type nowadays that general statements about what a decocker does or whether a striker is always this or always that or a pistol with an exposed hammer or internal hammer is this or that is no longer possible. Each model (and even some variations within models) is operated in its own unique fashion. Then, there is the Browning BDA. There is a switch on the pistol that can change the action type IN THE SAME SINGLE GUN.

What I am saying is that you cannot generalize any more, even though your advice is generally correct, there are many exceptions.

A DA/SA gun will uncock when you manually rack the slide

My Taurus PT99 and CZ99 stay cocked, as most DA/SA do. Manual decockers on the Ruger Semi-autos I have seen drop the hammer onto a block, as do many others. But I don't own any of those.

A DA only gun will not cock when you rack the slide

Sort of. The hammer cocks, but returns to its "rest" position as the slide returns to battery. The only semi-auto I know of for sure which does not cock as the slide cycles (either manually or when firing) is the Colt 2000, which is a true DA only pistol.

A Striker-Fired will half-cock when the slide goes back, and finish when you pull the trigger.

You are describing the Glock "safe-action" operation (and its copies and emulations). But not all striker fired pistols rest at a half-cocked status. My Taurus Millenium Pro striker is fully down or fully cocked. Cycling the trigger will cycle the striker (giving a second strike on a misfiring primer if desired). The half-cocked pistols need to have the striker/hammer reset by a slight slide movement to get up the the half-cock status.

With the DA/SA semi autos, at least all that I am aware of, after that first DA shot when the firearm remains cocked in SA mode it is not safe. That is, if it were to be dropped it may fire. It must be decocked

Probably not if the manual safety is on.

However, having said that, any pistol may fire at the most unlikely of times.

A Rochester police officer lost his pistol into an MRI machine in Brighton, New York on September 13, 2000.

A cocked and locked Model 1991 (series '80) Colt .45 ACP pistol was pulled from the hand of a Rochester N.Y. Police Officer and the round in the chamber was accidentally discharged. Immediately after the accident, the pistol was still cocked and locked with the spent round's empty cartridge still in the chamber.

The story was reported in the Sept 14th and Sept 15 issues of the Rochester Democrat and Chronicle. It was also investigated and reported in The American Journal of Roentgenology in their Volume 178, Issue 5 in May of 2002.

The gun was pulled from the officer's hand by and into a Magnetic Resonance Imaging machine and discharged when it made contact with the bore of the machine. A pretty much classic case of "slam-fire" typical of the pre-'80s series guns, but which was supposed to have been cured in the series '80 pistols by the firing pin block. Thus is proved the adage that no system can be made 100% effective.

The hammer was still fully cocked and the manual safety still intact and locking the slide in its fully forward position. That is, the hammer DID NOT FALL.

Lost Sheep

 

[BK]

I couldn't bear to carry a pistol without a round chambered. It would feel like I wasn't carrying at all.

 

[genstab]

Warp, you're right on that, but presumably having fired and not needing to any more, you would decock it again. Though technically cocked the hammer is down most of the way and will still fire when the trigger is pulled.

Lost Sheep, you mean the Browning BDM with the capacity to change from SA to DA by turnng a screw, not the BDA. I have one of those too. The "safety" on the BDM just incapacitates the trigger (it just completely disconnects) until you flip the safety back. Seems to be a well built gun though- lighter and slimmer, amazingly so in the grip considering it will take a 15 round mag, but it doesn't feel as heavy duty as the HP-DA/DAO (BDA-9), probably because of the lighter steel used. You'd have to be holding both to see what I mean.

Best regards,
Bill in Cleveland

 

[Frank Ettin]

...If I need to draw my gun to save my life or another person's, it means someone is in the act of threatening my life or someone else's. That means I'm reacting to a situation, as opposed to having made a decision to kill someone, and then simply looking for the first person I see.

Based on my understanding of the OODA cycle, I'll never react to a threat quickly enough to neutralize it, because the enemy has already made up his mind to kill me. In other words, it doesn't matter whether my gun is holstered in position one, or if the magazine isn't even in it yet. Drawing and shooting will never be my first reaction. If it is, it's too late, and I'm dead.

Priority one is moving for cover. From there, ample time to draw and rack a slide exists (the rack takes less than one extra second)....

Where is this from? Is this something you were taught by a professional? Did you think this up by yourself? In any case, based on my training, it looks to me to be wildly unrealistic.

First, I think you misunderstand OODA. It doesn't have anything to do with what the other guy is doing ("...the enemy has already made up his mind to kill me...") or what your first action might or might not be ("...Drawing and shooting will never be my first reaction...."). It merely describes the process one will go through to assess a situation and decide how to handle it.

And it's not a question of what your first reaction might be or how fast you can rack a slide. It's a question of how much, or how little, time you might have under the circumstances. In any emergency, you will need to perceive the threat, determine the need to fire, and, if you determine that use of lethal force is necessary, deploy our gun and engage the threat with accurate fire.

So how much time will you have in which to do all of that? I have no idea and neither do you. It's going to all depend on what happens and how it happens. You might have lots of time, or you might have very little. If a nasty incident happens, how it happens will determine for you how much time you have in which to deal with it. If you have enough time to do whatever you need to do, fine; but if you don't, you will most likely not be happy with the outcome. You're free, of course, to extend the time you might need to respond by adding further, avoidable mechanical steps to your response. But when you don't know how much time you might need, that doesn't seem very smart to me.

...I know what my training has taught me, and I know where my training comes from, and how many people rely on it to keep them alive every single day....

So exactly what has your training been, and where is it from?

My training includes several classes at Gunsite (250, 270 and 350), classes with Louis Awerbuck, a class with Massad Ayoob, among other classes.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Hey all, the other day I was thinkin of selling my 6 inch gp100. My wife says "No, dont do that!! I go for that weapon when I think I hear something and your at work." I said "go for the Glock". She then tells me she is much more comfortable with the wheel gun, dont have to rack the slide back. With revolvers just point and BANG. Glocks dont have that thumb safety. Do you guys keep 1 in the chamber? I have even heard my friends say to keep one chamber empty on the revolvers and to store the gun in that empty chamber. To me that sounds dumb since my revolvers are hammerless or have a Ruger transfer bar. What your input?

Since virtually all handguns nowdays are drop safe, there is no reason to keep such as the Glock or Ruger GP chamber empty.

Several advantages for chamber carry plus a few disadvantages.

1) Simplicity. No need to add another step to get the weapon in action.

2) Immediate first shot in the shortest time period, especially from retention position (that is grabbing distance.)

3) No need for two hands to chamber. You may have one hand hurt or busy and not be able to use two hands. Grappling with an attacker also makes chambering with two hands rather tough. Opponent may slam you to the ground, or grab the weapon, or just punch you while you try to chamber a round.

4) When under pressure you might short stroke the action and jam the weapon.

The downside is that if you forget the gun is loaded you can pull the trigger and have a AD/ND (but then, just KYFFOTFT till the weapon is on target.) Yes there are AD/NDs every year. No doubt many have their weapons chamber loaded, but then many are ‘cleaning’ their weapons and well, who knows what state their weapons was really in.

Now chamber empty (C3) has a few advantages.

1) A gun snatch will give you a few seconds for the BG to react (you hope) to get the weapon back.

2) If you have kids, and the slide is hard to rack, it's less chancy of they get the gun somehow (but then I feel you should just pick the gun up, ok.)

3) If your gun is not drop safe, then chamber empty is the best way to carry.

4) No safe way to carry the weapon (lack of holster, poor holster, etc..)

5) If you tend to take your gun out and play with it instead of keeping it holstered then C3 might be a better way to carry. (not kidding, there are people that do mess with their weapons like that.)

Overall, chamber empty is an inferior technique for most people. There are some where it serves a purpose like having the weapon hidden around the house and you have time to chamber a round, but for most, chamber loaded is the better technique for a defensive handgun.

Now why is it inferior? Because of the extra steps one has to take that mostly require two hands under very stressful conditions. Kind of like the technique of fanning a SA revolver.

Is chamber empty safer to carry? Not if you keep the weapon in a proper holster that covers the trigger guard and has adequate retention (in case of a fall or such) and don/doff with the weapon in the holster. That way the trigger cannot be pulled in any way.

Deaf

 

[RevDerb]

OK. IMO, keeping none in the chamber is a bad idea.

 

[DennisRL]

If I am outside of my home you can bet the gun on me has a round chambered....if I'm home, at my parents typically its still chambered, only few occassions, like when it is no longer my primary defense gun do I remove the chambered round.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...Overall, chamber empty is an inferior technique for most people. There are some where it serves a purpose like having the weapon hidden around the house and you have time to chamber a round, but for most, chamber loaded is the better technique for a defensive handgun.

Now why is it inferior? Because of the extra steps one has to take that mostly require two hands under very stressful conditions...

Yes. It's not only the question of the extra time. You might not have the use of both hands. You may need one hand for some other chore.

Often, a gun is indeed used defensively using only one hand. For example, see the New York City Police Department Firearm Discharge Report for 2009.

On page 8 (page 32 of the pdf, there's a long introduction), it is noted (emphasis added):

...Utilizing a two‐handed grip, standing, and lining up a target using the firearm’s sights is the preferred method of discharging a firearm, but it is not always practical during an adversarial conflict. Of officers reporting their shooting techniques, 62 percent gripped the firearm with two hands,...

Therefore, 38% of the officers reporting their shooting technique used in the adversarial conflict (apparently the NYPD term for "gun fight") fired their gun one-handed.

To be sure, this is a small and particular sample. But it is at least strongly suggestive that in defensive uses of a pistol, firing the gun with one-handed is not that uncommon.

 

[vellocet]

If you have a semi-auto pistol that is normally functional, the most likely time you will have a failure is when you rack it to load it. That is when you are doing what the pistol would do if there was already one in the chamber. Human failure. Trust the machine and keep one in the chamber. Just be real, real careful. Revolvers, unless you are a mountian climber or something, are pretty safe as modern fully loaded. You don't see safetys on revolvers. Unless, of course, the feds jam them into import revolvers. Jeez.

 

[JTQ]

csa77 wrote,
I can only speak for myself but I carry a revolver(hammerless snub) mostly because I do feel safer having all cylinders loaded vs carrying pistol with one in the chamber.

Typically, revolvers have only one cylinder and multiple chambers.

I think your comfort level is increased by believing the chamber of your revolver is a cylinder, which is a misconception.

When you load all the chambers of a revolver, you have a fully loaded cylinder.

 

[AKElroy]

Back to the OP's openeing point, the Wife is comfortable with the Ruger. That would settle it for me. Fully loaded GP 100 is about as well armed as anyone should ever need.

 

[Nushif]

Back to the OP's openeing point, the Wife is comfortable with the Ruger. That would settle it for me. Fully loaded GP 100 is about as well armed as anyone should ever need.

This can't be repeated often enough here.