Is it really safe to carry an automatic with one round loaded in the chamber?

[Big Gay Al]

I first started carrying a M1911 back in 1975 when I became an NCO and tank commander. 99% of the time, as per SOP, it was carried with the chamber empty. But then we were at peace during my time in the Army.

WHen I got out, one of the many jobs I had after was security. The gun I carried for most of that time was the Colt Gov't Model series 70. I carried it Condition one, cocked and locked with a round in the chamber. Even when I later carried a S&W Model 59, it had a round in the chamber also, however, due to the design, the hammer was down, since activating the safety, dropped the hammer.

When I later switched to the Taurus PT-92, I went back to cocked and locked, even though it's capable of double action usage, it's also capable of having the hammer cocked, and the safety on. One of the reasons I like it so much.

When I worked in New Orleans last year, I had my PT-92, cocked and locked while working security down there. I switch off between it, a Firestorm Compact (1911 clone), Taurus PT-911 (medium frame 9mm) and and EAA Witness (.45ACP, soon to be 10mm AP). ALL are carried cocked, locked and with a round in the chamber.

I don't even think of carrying otherwise. Part of the reason I chose those particular pistols is they ALL work the same when it comes to the manual safety.

The only pistols I have that I don't carry condition one, are my Model 617 (Taurus .357 snubnosed revolver) and my Bersa Thunder .380. These two are my BUGs. The 617 is a DA/SA revolver, so no safety, no need to go into that in more detail, right. The Bersa's safety drops the hammer, and is the only one I own where the safety works differently. Consequently, when I carry it, the safety is off, the hammer down and a round in the chamber. When I take it off my belt, the safety goes on, right away. This one is the ONLY exception among my semi-auto pistols.

 

[Onmilo]

I am a bit perturbed by people claiming there is inadequate training for handgun armed personnel.
That wasn't my experience during my tenure.
If you couldn't receive adequate training through your unit proper due to Command inefficiency or budgetary restraints then every base Rod and Gun Club that I was familiar with offered handgun proficiency classes along with target and combat shooting courses.
Every Rod and Gun Club also had service and target handguns available for range loan to active duty personnel though on the weekends one may have to put their name on a list and wait for one to become available.
Sometimes surplus ammunition was available free to active duty personnel too.
Sometimes you were rationed and sometimes one could shoot as much as he could want depending on the amount allocated to the particular club.

Anybody who says they received inadequate handgun training during their Military term just wasn't looking in the right places.

I can and could understand Navy and Air Force personnel being placed on greater restrictions than Army and Marine personnel but anybody with boots on the soil who followed goofy regulations that could get you killed in a combat zone was plain and simple, a fool.

 

[isp2605]

"Anybody who says they received inadequate handgun training during their Military term just wasn't looking in the right places."

What you described was not formal military training. You just explained you went out on your own and went beyond what the military provided. That is not at all what is being discussed. I spent 2 yrs Army MP and what the Army provided for handgun training was "basic" and at best familiarization. Now, if you haven't had any real formal handgun training to compare it to, one might think it was adequate. It wasn't.

 

[Big Gay Al]

I thought my training was top-notch. But I also had a slight advantage when I went in. I had been a member of a PAL Junior rifle club. And our Police sponser also let us shoot many other weapons, than just the .22 target rifles provided by the NRA. Including, but not limited to the following weapons: M16A1 (His), M1928 Thompson SMG (the department's), Reising SMG (the dept's), M2 Carbine (His), M1911 .45 pistol (his), .38 Special, Colt and S&W of various models (his and/or the dept's.) as well as numerous other rifles, pistols, and shotguns that I don't even remember. (This was back in the early 1970's).

So, when I went to basic, I already knew a lot more about the some of the weapons we'd train on, than my instructors knew. But I didn't tell anyone. It was too much fun to see their faces when I field stripped an M16 without much instruction.

Still, I thought the training I got in the Army was top-notch. Of course, that's just my opinion.

 

[allen268]

I thought the training I got in the Army was top-notch

I thought so too, I think a lot of it depends on how much emphasis is put on handgun training in ones particular unit, some unit commanders require just basic marksmanship and familiarization while others are sticklers on training and proficiency, its not a blanket issue in the military, it varies from unit to unit.

 

[solive]

Alot of military just are not gun people. For example my army recruiter who just got back from Iraq 7 months ago came over to my house the other day and the subject of guns came up and he asked to see some of what I had. I brought out my AR 15 he kind of looked at it like it was a sks or something then asked me if it was A SINGLE SHOT, I just kind of laughed. I knew he meant semi auto but he was oblivious to the fact that full auto was so regulated to civilians. He carried a M16 in Iraq for 13 months and I probably know more about the weapon than he does. But he is a great guy and I thank him and the others for there service to our country.!

 

[Hacker15E]

I agree that military firearms training (at least what I've experienced during about 10 CATM classes for the .38 revolver, M-16, and M9) is at such a basic level that it is familiarization training at best.

My most recent USAF M9 class had to students who were literally afraid of the pistol. The instructor spent a large volume of the class time catering to those students, while those of us with more shooting experience got almost nothing out of it.

As I own a Beretta 92FS at home, about the only thing I got out of it was the knowledge that the AF is moving away from teaching the Weaver stance and toward teaching Iscosceles and 90 rounds of practice. I would have liked to have heard more about breath control during a long DA trigger pull, or how to "cut the pie", or something of the like...but what I got instead was "point the muzzle downrange and don't put your finger on the trigger until you're ready to fire."

No slight toward the CATM folks, as they were very knowledgeable when I asked more detailed questions. The fact is, at least in the USAF, when all you get is a 2-hour academic block and 2 hours of range time every two years, it's not what you'd call in-depth firearms training.

 

[tegemu]

YES!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[MCgunner]

I totally agree with your dad in that revolvers are safer than autos. No argument from me. This is a reason why I always recommend a revolver to a newbie shooter. They have a safer manual of arms, more fool proof, if there is such a thing in firearms. However, I don't think it is significantly more dangerous with proper knowledge of gun handling and training that it will keep me from carrying an autoloader. DAO autoloaders are perhaps the safest to carry with one up the spout, true DAO. A DA you have to decock. You should be muzzle aware and always treat the gun as if it were loaded. All guns are loaded unless they're taken apart in my mind. You must strip the gun to clean it, after all, so cleaning is not a concern.

I accept the small extra risk when I carry an autoloader and I am religious about safe gun handling. If you don't feel that way, carry a revolver and be happy. Nothing wrong with revolvers for self defense!

 

[Mad Magyar]

Hey Doug, don't listen to these "Bruce Willis" wanna-bees who sit on their butts w/o practicing firing or the draw & think that because they have "one-in-the-tube" that is their advantage ticket...BTW, ask the Israelis! For carry, Cond.#3 is the way to go if your proficient with your pistol. This slow time element is nothing but fantasy because they have never seen it done with speed....The excuse is:"And what do you do if you don't have a free hand?" The old, handicap argument if you don't have anything else to say...What I've found from my own experiences with other CCW's is that they are so worried about whether the safety is on/off that they are fumbling around with their thumb so often that they aren't even comfortable anymore, plus its ridiculous...Deny it all you want....
Carry as you see fit....

 

[1911 guy]

A voice of experience, obviously.

For the record, the Israelis train with methods meant to be used by all hands. Kinda like the U.S. military. Ever notice that we (U.S.) carried condition 3 for years, when the original requirement was for a condition 1 safe pistol to be used by mounted cavalry?

Sorry, Mad Magyar, close but no cigar. As for the accusations of non-training, non-shooting couch commandos, wrong again.

You're battin' a thousand here, buddy.

 

[Cousin Mike]

I hope to God...

... that if someone ever goes to pull a gun on me again, they have to rack the slide first. Because we all know there's absolutely nothing that can go wrong when you're trying to rack the slide of a pistol under the stress of a life or death encounter, right?

And I'm supposed to be an action hero for carrying one in the pipe?
I think I'll leave playing 'super tough-guy' to the Israelis, and keep my weapons ready.

By the way, doing that kind of BS is exactly how I shot my wall out... Good luck to whoever's holding that camera.

P.S. - 4 of my 5 guns don't have safeties...

 

[MCgunner]

No safeties on my carry guns. One has a decocker that returns. All I need do is draw and pull the trigger. I like it that way. Your arm could be busy, not just wounded, ya know. You just might be defending against the bad guy's knife or something or grappling with him using your weak arm while grabbin' your handgun with your strong arm.

If my only option, for some odd reason, were to carry condition three, I'd just stick with my revolvers because they'd have a HUGE advantage in many self defense situations I can think of.

 

[Jamie C.]

Mad's argument sort'a blows that whole "fire from the retention position" thing right out of the water, doesn't it?

Sorry, but I'd rather be a "Bruce Willis wannabe" than a "Barney Fife" any day.

Oh, also... last I'd heard, even the Israelis had given up on condition 3 carry.


J.C.

 

[sgphoto]

I'm not a fan of cocked and locked carry for semi autos regardless of whether or not they may have DA capabilities. IMO it's not safe (for me).

Every carry that is short of having the gun in your hand is some type of compromise. That's where cops have the advantage over non-LEO. It's OK for them to have their guns in their hands while often doing their duties. For the rest of us, that's rarely possible so it’s necessary to be able to present and pull the trigger as fast as possible consistent with hitting the target

SA, whether or not DA is available, will give a crisper and smoother trigger pull. If you want your best shot, SA is probably best with semi autos (and revolvers) if you’ve got the time and distance.

In my police days carrying revolvers, we were not allowed to qualify using SA, only DA. My Smiths all had been worked on for smooth trigger pull, and I could always stage the trigger to achieve an almost SA pull, again when time and distance allowed - such as at the 25 and 50 yard line with strong and weak hand barricade positions.

My problem is with the cocked and locked part of the equation. With SA only semi autos, I do not like C&L as a carry, particularly with ambidextrous safeties, but even with left side safeties.

I realize that there are those who do carry C&L (in a SA only pistol) and may gain a slight (very slight) gain in speed provided they can remove the safety (which requires fine motor skills during a stressful encounter) while drawing.

Why anyone would carry C&L with a reliable DA semi auto though is something I don’t get.

Since most gunfights occur well-within 7 yards, the DA trigger pull only requires gross motor skills and no fussing with a safety. And if you can’t hit the target in 7 yards you need to practice regardless of whether you use SA or DA.

I still suspect it’s just a matter of practice and habit with those who carry C&L. For years, DA autos weren’t available, particularly in the States. You had the 1911 Colts, Browning HPs, and a few others, all SA. In the “old” days, many were taught that C&L was the best way so that’s what they learned and practiced. There was also widespread issues of the supposed “unsafe” method of carrying a SA semi auto with the hammer down with a round in the chamber.

But with the proliferation of quality DA semi autos beginning in the late 50s through today, it was no longer necessary to carry C&L and you could still have a fast trigger pull. Now, many carry with the hammer down on a loaded round in the chamber and have the option to just pull the trigger, not messing with a safety. This is the position I take as best for me. Why? - because I was a wheel gun S&W guy for many years where I had the hammer down on a loaded chamber. I wasn’t invested emotionally in SA semi autos, particularly Colts.

I still believe that carrying C&L offers little gain if any, at the price of safety and unless well-practiced can be slower than DA.

I still ask the question of those who carry C&L, if revolvers, either SA or DA had a safety, would you carry the revolver C&L?

And if those who shoot extremely fast with SA revolvers have to pull their hammer back, why can those with SA autos not do the same?

I suspect that carrying C&L will slowly go away as those who espouse C&L pass away, though I hope for all our sake they hang around as long as they can as they’re really good people.

This is just me talking and I’ve been known to be wrong as I and my three ex-wives could testify.

Regards,

Steve

 

[1911 guy]

Some folks aren't mechanically inclined.

Sgphoto's post is worth reading, due to one important point. He states that he was a wheelgun guy for a long time and he's comfortable with DA triggers. Life is cool, there are a lot of wheelguns and autos with DA triggers, some even DAO. However, we get into trouble when we start comparing apples to oranges.

The comparison of a de-cocked 1911 and revolver isn't consistent. To load a revo and have the hammer on the frame, all that is required is to charge the cylinder and swing it closed. A 1911 requires lowering the hammer on a round.

A holstered weapon is LESS of a liability than a drawn one. As a police officer, you would have been trained in holstered retention. Trigger is covered, nobody is being covered by your muzzle, and most importantly, GUNS DO NOT JUST GO OFF. Somebody has got to do something they ought not do to have a ND. Period.

The fine VS gross motor skills argument has been done to death. The answer is muscle memory and training, not one set of muscles over another.

Espousing the greatness of DA autos is O.K., there are a lot of good ones out there. Unfortunately, were discussing C&L carry with a 1911, not a fictional revolver with a safety.

Learn how the lockwork of a 1911 actually functions, people. It's not possessed of the devil, it won't reach out and smack little kids for chewing gum. It's a fairly well designed firearm that reqiures a knowledgeable user. Unfortunately, it's easier to castigate the unknown than it is to learn it.

As for we proponents of C&L passing away, not for a while, buddy.

 

[louisdove]

"There is always that one time that you will forget that there is a round in the chamber when you remove it from your holster or drawer to clean it and BANG!!!!. You can't see that it is loaded. (This especially true of XDs and Glocks that have no hammer)"



All of the XD's have loaded chamber indicaters that are very efficient. you can see them very well in good light and if it is dark you can feel it protrude if the chamber is loaded by simply running your finger across the slide. How would you see if a revovler is loaded in the dark in a speedy way?

 

[camp_gunner]

And now to add more fuel to the fire.

In reality, cocked and locked is not how the 1911 was designed to be carried. The safety on these is intended intermittent use only. The primary carry design by Browning was the hammer down on a loaded chamber. This is the only truly safe way to carry this pistol loaded.

If you understand the design of the trigger / sear / hammer assembley, there is a very reliable way to lower the hammer to the decocked postion. It involves pulling the trigger twice in the decocking process. The first step is to put the cartridge into the chamber and close the slide. The second step is to grasp the hammer with your thumb behind the spur or burr, and a finger on the front face of the hammer, from this position the trigger is pulled to release the hammer from the full cock notch. The trigger is then released and the hammer is lowered to the half cock notch. The hammer is then gripped by it's sides, retracted slightly by hand, and the trigger is then pulled again. The hammer is then eased down to the decocked postion. The point of this process is that in a properly set up 1911, the hammer will not impart a strong enough blow to fireing pin to set off a primer from the half cock postion. This method works with both the spur and burr type hammers, in fact I developed it after having dropped the burr hammer on my Colt Commander one time.

As to double action guns, I actually consider them to be unsafe. The problem with any loaded double action gun is that it only takes one action to cause the gun to fire. This becomes a problem as soon as the loaded DA gun is no longer in your hand or in a holster on your person. If the gun is sitting in your nightstand, anyone that has enough strength can make the gun fire. This includes the four year old, the curious, the uninformed, the untrained, anyone. Almost everyone in this country from the age of about two on up has seen how to pull a trigger on the tv, and so has the training to cause a gun to go off.

The easy accidental discharge problem of loaded DA guns becomes critical in guns that are not carried such as shop guns and guns in night stands. I did a critical review of this as I was putting some protection guns in my wife's business and came to the conclusion that the possibility of customer getting to the gun and causing an accidental discharge would be too great a liability with a DA gun. With a single action gun, the likelyhood of an accidental discharge is much lower. This reduces the liability.

If you carry a DA gun, I would recommend that you unload it when it is not on your person, for the reasons outlined above. All my personal carry guns are single actions, I only carry those that can be safe with the hammer down, as this allows me to set the gun aside without having to unload it every time.

 

[Still 2 Many Choices!?]

I just treat ALL my carry guns like revolvers and problem solved!!

The safety is never engaged while carrying(if it has one), there is ALWAYS a round in the chamber while carrying, I ALWAYS draw with a straight finger, and pay attention when handling my guns... It ain't rocket science
:banghead: !!! Carry however you FEEL comfortable, and I'll do the same .

Still 2 Many Choices!?

 

[grislyatoms]

"In reality, cocked and locked is not how the 1911 was designed to be carried. The safety on these is intended intermittent use only. The primary carry design by Browning was the hammer down on a loaded chamber. This is the only truly safe way to carry this pistol loaded."

There are two "truly safe" ways to carry a 1911. No round in the chamber or cocked and locked. Period.

There is no way the hammer on a 1911 can fall with a properly functioning sear. I have heard (although it is anecdotal, I tend to believe it) about hammers being BENT during accidental application of force (i.e. dropping) instead of falling on the firing pin.


"This method works with both the spur and burr type hammers, in fact I developed it after having dropped the burr hammer on my Colt Commander one time."

So you developed this method? Or did JMB?

Please rethink carrying your 1911 this way. Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.

 

[1911 guy]

Put the cartridge in the chamber and close the slide?

Camp Gunner, you apparently don't know how to load a 1911. Loading directly into the chamber is pretty hard on extractors. If you don't like C&L carry, fine. Carry something else and leave the rest of us and our 1911's alone.

This is a pet peeve of mine, people blaming their own foibles on their (or anothers) equipment.

Additionally, if a slip is going to happen, you won't have time to let go of the trigger before the hammer falls. That's why it's generally considered a bad idea to decock a 1911 with one in the hole.

I may not be a genius, but I do try to take the time to learn my equipment. There are some guys on this forum who know more about 1911's than any of us could hope to. Looking up some of their past posts may prove educational.

 

[XavierBreath]

Safe use of a 1911 C&L carry.

To load:
Remove magazine.
Load magazine.
Pull back slide using rear serrations to verify an empty chamber.
Insert magazine.
Pull back slide using rear serrations and release to load chamber.
Engage thumb safety.
If desired, eject magazine, insert one more round and reinsert magazine.
Holster weapon.

What is so difficult about that? Note that nowhere is there an instruction to place your finger on the trigger. Note that nowhere are you lowering a hammer on a live round.

To unload;
Remove from holster.
Eject magazine.
Disengage thumb safety.
Pull back slide using rear serrations to eject chambered round.
Verify empty chamber visually and if desired by inserting a finger on chamber.
Lower slide on empty chamber.
Place unloaded gun, magazine and extra round in secure storage space.

What is so difficult about that? Note that nowhere is there an instruction to place your finger on the trigger. Note that nowhere are you lowering a hammer on a live round.

When unloading and loading a revolver you do not lower the hammer on a live round. When unloading and loading a revolver you keep your finger off the trigger. If a 1911 is handled properly, it is safe. If a revolver is handled improperly, it is unsafe. The safety is in the person handling the gun folks!

 

[Stickjockey]

I look at it this way. My carry gun, a 1911, was designed with a built-in loaded chamber indicator. If the slide is not locked back, there's a round in the chamber.

 

[grislyatoms]

And 1911 guy is exactly correct. Loading a round into the chamber manually on a 1911 plays merry hell with extractors. Let the slide do it for you.

 

[Jamie C.]

I'd just like to add that I've been carrying SA autos since I was about...oh...17 years old. I've always carried them in "condition 1", or "cocked and locked".

I have never, in 26 years of carrying them, had an AD/ND with one.



J.C.