Is it really safe to carry an automatic with one round loaded in the chamber?

[Soybomb]

I guess I don't see the problem here. The only thing that keeps you from having a ND with a revolver is verifying its empty before you pull the trigger. Why can't you do the same thing with a semi-auto?

Your rifle is a primary weapon

Do you carry a rifle slung in day to day life?

Honestly I think the more you play with it chambering rounds like an action movie hero everywhere you go the more likely you are to have problems. Load it, put it in its holster, top off the mag, and don't touch it until you're ready to use it or unload it.

 

[Dreamer]

There are some people that don't have the capacity to deal with firearms of any sort, or in any state of readiness. It is best if they stay away from them completely. Possibly pepper spray would be the safer alternative, even then they could end up spraying themselves while checking to see if it worked. For the rest of us, the rules of firearms safety and common sense prevail.

 

[Doug.38PR]

okay, all the replies have essentially been "you've got to know how to use a gun safely" followed by all the dicipline and procedures. Or questions on how come we don't have LEOs guns going off every day and pds going back to revolvers

I understand all that. All of that is true. What I am saying, or rather my father, is that no matter how diciplined you are or how safety concious you are, there is always that one moment that you forget to check a firearm. It only takes one time and you have a ND. The more complicated something is, the higher the chances are of you making a mistake or getting careless. Doesn't mean something will happen, it just increases the chances.

Most people, you, me the guy next to you and the cop in the patrol car you pass will likely not have anything go wrong, but just one time is all it takes

The question still stands, why did the military for the past 100 years of using say the 1911 not allow carry with one in the chamber?

 

[iliketoshootguns]

the time it takes to rack a round in the chamber is the same time that the bg can put a bullet in your brain

keep it locked and loaded

 

[RNB65]

The question still stands, why did the military for the past 100 years of using say the 1911 not allow carry with one in the chamber?

Because the military has to adopt its procedures based on the lowest common denominator. The only safe way to carry a 1911 is chamber empty or cocked and locked and the average draftee doesn't have the discipline and gun handling skills to carry cocked and locked.

 

[browningguy]

I believe the single action auto may be the safest carried cocked and locked. When you look at it you know it's loaded.

 

[Doug.38PR]

draftee doesn't have the discipline and gun handling skills to carry cocked and locked

they go through more training for war than police do right?

Do you carry a rifle slung in day to day life?

If you were in the military you would.

Another thought for you Doug, NDs typically occur when a loaded chamber is cleared, when a round is removed from the chamber. By constantly loading and unloading your chamber, you are increasing your chances of a ND exponentially. Another consideration..... Each time that round is chambered, the bullet runs the risk of being set back in the shell a bit. One of the primary causes of KaBooms with factory ammo is bullets that have been set back through constant chambering and ejection. Unless you are measuring your carry amo for setback, each time you chamber and eject that first round, you are increasing the risk of personal injury when you fire it in your pistol.

Well, doesn't that demonstrate my point. In order to clean the gun, or work on it, or practice dry firing occasionally you would have to do just this when having it loaded in the chamber. All of these things combined would require frequent removing the round from the chamber

I believe the single action auto may be the safest carried cocked and locked. When you look at it you know it's loaded.

As long as the auto has a hammer you can tell. BUT if it is a Glock or an XD (like XavierBreath said XDs do have signal but a hammer is more telling to me) it is a little less noticable. I've "heard" that some PDs are moving away from the Glock because it has no lock or safety or decocker.


All in all, I prefer revolvers anyway (if their is brass in the gun...it IS loaded and the brass, bullet or not, gets ejected. And with my revolvers anyway, Colt and S&W I can see the brass in the cylinder from behind without looking in between plate and cylinder easy) and prior to this lengthy discussion with dad I used to carry 25% of the time either a Sig P226 decocked with one in the chamber or a 1911 A1 cocked and locked or with the hammer down in Cond. 2 confidently. This lengthy discussion with dad kinda got me wondering.

 

[carry2011]

draftee doesn't have the discipline and gun handling skills to carry cocked and locked...

they go through more training for war than police do right?

Not on day one, which is what a boot (new recruit) starts out with: likely, little knowledge of firearms, let alone safe handling techniques.

 

[bonnieblue]

It seems your dad needs to attend a handgun safety course. His USMC background does not give him the firearms authority he apparently believes he posseses.

I have a similar background (six years in USMC) forty years ago and I agree with Doug's dad. I would have to say a great deal in Xavierbreath's comments is erroneous, not the least of which is magazines in weapons on guard. Almost NO ONE carried a magazine in ANY weapon in their weapon on guard duty outside a war area or firing area. The point is moot. Insofar as the 1911, it is a defensive weapon, not needing a load in the chamber until an enemy is inside rifle range. In any event most officers (in Viet Nam for example) carried a rifle( M-14 or M-16) anyway. AND I CAN ASSURE YOU, YOU WERE TAUGHT A HECK OF A LOT MORE GUN SAFETY THAN MOST PEOPLE DEMONSTRATE TODAY.

 

[Cousin Mike]

no matter how diciplined you are or how safety concious you are, there is always that one moment that you forget to check a firearm

I've heard this many times. I never thought it would happen to me, but that's probably why I had one in the first place. Thinking that since I was Mr. Safety nothing like that would ever happen in my home. There must be some truth to that, but I don't think it has anything to do with revolver or auto.

The 3 of us who posted our own experiences with ND's... One had a rifle, the other a shotgun, and mine happened with a revolver. I really don't think the particular weapon matters. The bottom line is, all 3 of us were being careless with a loaded weapon. That, in and of itself, is probably how 99.9% of ND's happen.

I know a few people who have had AD/ND's - including a relative of mine who's probably carried a gun everyday for the last 30 years. Then again, I know people who have had guns just as long, and have never had an AD/ND.

Don't have one... they suck.

As for the military, and a military man's expertise on firearms?

Today, officers get more training in social work and cultural awareness than they get in range time. The same goes for the military. The results are telling.

That's the truth if I've ever seen it. I have 2 younger brothers - twins as a matter of fact. One's a chef, the other is in the USAF. One day, when my brother in the Air Force came back from his first deployment to Iraq, we all went to the range for a little fun.. My 2 brothers, my girlfriend, and myself.

My girlfriend and I practice all the time. My brother in the Air Force promised he would outshoot us easily, as he qualified with his M-9 no problem, and spent his off-time in Iraq at the range on base. His twin had never fired a gun before.

Guess who was the worst shot by far?

The brother who had never fired a gun before, - with only a 30 minute lecture on gun safety - completely outclassed his twin with a pistol, and demonstrated MUCH more safe behavior while at the range.My brother had been in the military for 4 years and couldn't put a bullet in the 10-ring of a 25 yard target at 20 ft to save his life.

Military experience, police training... to me, they mean nothing in terms of shooting a pistol. When you take your girlfriend to the range to practice, and have a police officer ask the two of you where you learned to shoot? It might give you a new perspective on peoples career-based expertise.

 

[isp2605]

"Quote:
draftee doesn't have the discipline and gun handling skills to carry cocked and locked

they go through more training for war than police do right?"

Handgun training in the military, except for a very few special units, is not training but familiarization if they get any at all. Not every person in the military gets training with handguns. If they do they learn how to align the sights, load it, and make it fire but they don't get real extensive training and they sure don't get the training to any level comparable to a progressive police dept. A LEO may get 15-20 weeks, every day, every week, training on the handgun and then requal and training every month or quarter thereafter. Very few in the military get reoccurring training where they have to fire and train. Most will have to requal annually which means running 120 rds downrange, clean the weapon, and then see it again next year. Some military jobs are not even required annual requal.
As RNB65 stated military weapons training is for the lowest common denominator. They have to train 17-18 yr old kids, maybe they were able to finish high school but maybe not, some have some pretty low IQs, quite a few have never had any responsibility in their lives, first time away from home, very few have ever handled any kind of firearm and those who did even fewer have any training whatsoever with a handgun. There are quite a few who if they weren't in the military they'd be starving to death on the streets because they have no skills and are barely trainable. The military takes these young kids, pump them up to think they're supermen, give them just a few weeks of marching, a new pretty uniform, and then ship them off someplace and put a weapon in their hands. If not closely controlled they get screwing around with their weapons and someone gets hurt. I had some kids that it made my hair stand on end to have to issue them a weapon. They might be in the military but they were still some pretty irresponsible kids.

 

[Soybomb]

If you were in the military you would.

Great but I'm not so what are you talking about saying "your rifle is your primary weapon?" When I'm out of the house a handgun is my primary weapon.

Most of us aren't here because we're sitting around in a guarded camp with other trusted people who would act as our trusted eyes and ears. I think many people here carry on the streets because they realize in an encounter they have there, they will be on their own and may not have time to fiddle with a slide but might instead have to be pushing an attacker off them with one hand while drawing and firing from a retention position with another. The military analogies are in essence, worthless, at least for my uses. The military has different firearm needs and uses than I do. If anything my needs would be more like those of a police officers except they may have earlier notice they are going to need it and can be more liberal with unholstering than I can. Can you cite some PD's that require their officers carry unchambered? I think we tend to go down a pointless road though when start saying "but police carry glocks so they must be better" or "the military does this so it must be the perfect solution." Seldom do the reasons seem to be what you might initially think, and seldom are the needs of the groups being compared congruent.

What I am saying, or rather my father, is that no matter how diciplined you are or how safety concious you are, there is always that one moment that you forget to check a firearm. It only takes one time and you have a ND. T

Yup and that negligence can happen with a semiautomatic or a revolver. You need to verify both are unloaded before pulling the trigger. Neither one is smart enough to know when you intend to fire and when you dont. Plenty of NDs have happened from guys who thought they dumped all the rounds out of their revolvers but wound up with one sticking in the cylinder... When you become complacent there is a danger with any system.

 

[Jimmie]

There is a reason that the military did not allow carry this way. It was not because they were too ignorant of cocked and locked. ND can and do happen.

As a USAF pilot, we carry the M9 in our survival vest (on combat sorties) with one in the pipe, hammer down, and safety off -- ready for a double action trigger pull. This is the way the regulation specifies the pistol is carried.

+1. Hacker beat me to it. I don't know how the Army does it or even how the AF handles their long guns, but we're taught from Day 1 of M9 training to carry it in DA, safety off.

The M9 was my first time handling a pistol. (Life would be so much cheaper if I had never shot that first qualification or not married into a S&W nut's family! ) I had grown up with guns primarily for hunting so the idea of "safety off" when I wasn't ready to fire sent chills down my back for a long time.

 

[S&W620]

Why would you pull the trigger if you didn't WANT the gun to fire. If you are dry firing or practicing, I would imagine the first thing you would to is to check the gun. In my case I don't need to worry about that. My guns are always loaded/one in the chamber unless I am handling them for cleaning, etc. The only way a gun fires is by pulling the trigger. Don't pull the trigger on a gun that has a chambered round and the safety off and you will NOT have any AD's. I understand what your father is saying, but I must disagree.

 

[isp2605]

Hacker and Jimmie are correct. The USAF training regs for the M-9 is rd in the chamber, hammer down, safety off.
Years ago when the USAF had 1911s the reg was chamber empty, hammer down, and loaded mag inserted.
For the M-15 it was all chambers loaded.
For the M-16 it was chamber empty and either mag inserted or not, depending on the local theatre commander's direction.
However, if in an AFSC that required going outside the wire then when out doing their thing it was chamber loaded on everything.

 

[Dr.Rob]

You need a pistol, you might need it because your rifle is empty, broken and or you are wounded, maybe both your arms aren't working to rack the slide.

1911, BHP are designed to be carried cocked and locked and easily employed with one hand. I wouldn't carry a Luger that way, but nobody really carries those anymore.

 

[carebear]

The Marine's who actually USE pistol's (1911's) today do carry with a round in the chamber, cocked and locked. That'd be the Force guys (and now whatever the Spec Ops Det. is called).

That's because they are trained.

People who actually plan on having to use their pistols, military, law enforcement and most formally trained CCW holders, uniformly carry their weapons with a round chambered.

(yes, yes, the "Israeli-style" crowd doesn't but they and their trainers are in a distinct minority)

 

[mmike87]

When cleaning, I remove the magazine and put it far away from the gun. I then rack the slide SEVERAL times, and visually and finger-check the chamber. Only then is the gun safe to clean. Regardless, I treat the gun as loaded until the slide is off the frame. All of this take a couple of seconds, top to perform.

I think folks that argue that you shouldn't carry a round in the chamber also shouldn't drive. What if you "forget" to stop at a stop sign? Or forget to look behind you when backing up? Or forget to put it in PARK and put the brake on when you get out of the car and it rolls down a hill?

Why are guns ANY different than anything else? People do things every day that are inherently dangerous if not done properly. Almost ANYTHING is dangerous if not done properly.

An ER doc told me once that their number one reason people needed stitches in the ER was bagle cutting accidents. Yet I never hear anyone say "Is it really safe to eat a sliced bagel?"

 

[cdsdss]

Quote: "A LEO may get 15-20 weeks, every day, every week, training on the handgun and then requal and training every month or quarter thereafter. Very few in the military get reoccurring training where they have to fire and train. Most will have to requal annually which means running 120 rds downrange, clean the weapon, and then see it again next year.

Try 3 times a year.

I can't speak for all military pistol training, but in my training class we had former Army, Marine, Navy and Coast Guard. None of them had received the level of pistol training in those armed forces that they did in our training program. They had, however received much more extensive rifle training--the rifle being their primary weapon. "We would only go to a pistol if our long gun is down."

The only guy who'd received comparable pistol training was a former Special Forces guy. The rest had never been trained to move and shoot (except for the former MSG), find cover and concealment, ready their pistols with one arm out of commission, etc.

 

[XavierBreath]

I'll jump back in the fray and try to address a couple of things.

What I am saying, or rather my father, is that no matter how diciplined you are or how safety concious you are, there is always that one moment that you forget to check a firearm. It only takes one time and you have a ND. The more complicated something is, the higher the chances are of you making a mistake or getting careless. Doesn't mean something will happen, it just increases the chances.

Is pulling back the slide of a semi auto to check the chamber any more complicated than opening the cylinder of a revolver? Checking a revolver involves pushing a cylinder release forward and swinging out a cylinder. That is two steps. Checking a semi-auto involves dropping a magazine, and pulling a slide back. Two steps. How is one more complicated than the other? If anything, by this reasoning, a revolver should be six times more dangerous because it has more chambers to check!

draftee doesn't have the discipline and gun handling skills to carry cocked and locked ......they go through more training for war than police do right?

The military gets precious little hands on range time with sidearms. LEOs generally get more than most military specialties among the enlisted ranks.

And with my revolvers anyway, Colt and S&W I can see the brass in the cylinder from behind without looking in between plate and cylinder easy)

One can also press check some semi-autos. The proper way to verify a gun is unloaded is to inspect an empty chamber. The proper way to verify a gun is loaded is to place a round in the chamber. Checking for brass is checking for brass. It is not the same as checking for a loaded or empty chamber. Check for live ammo, not signs of brass if you are going to carry the gun for self defense.

 

[stevelyn]

They go through more training than police, right?

Nope. The military for the most part is only concerned about you "qualifying" every six months or so. Meaning that you have to punch so many holes anywhere in a humanoid silouette target.

During said hole punching, you are not allowed to touch the weapon, ammunition, mags or anything until you are told to do so. IOW no thinking for one's self allowed.

Military weapons qualification doesn't measure up in the real world as there is only familiarzation and little training.

Cops on the OTOH not only have to learn marksmanship, but also weapons handling with others in close proximity, target/threat assessment, shooting from retention, shooting from unconventional positions, shooting on the move. Cops train using the "hot range" concept. All weapons are always loaded all the time unless cleared for cleaning or maintenance after training or at the "fiddle table" during training to resolve a mechanical issue.

After the training session, (post academy, special and advanced schools) weapons are cleared and put into the state of readiness the individual wants it to be in off the range. This usually means swapping out the training ammo for duty ammo.

Under all circumstances during "hot range" training, all weapons are loaded and are either pointed in downrange engaging targets, doing drills (live fire malfunctions) or in the holster (slung cross-body w/ safety on for longarms).
At no time does anyone screw with the weapons without prior approval.

I have to agree with RNB65's post about military training and the lowest common denominator recruit.

However, the military, due to realities in the ME has reluctantly been dragged kicking and screaming into the real firearms fighting world by their contracting out for civilian firearms instructors for firearms training.
These instructors-John Farnam's one-have been training groups of military personnel in the "hot range" concept, and teaching modern firearm fighting gun handling techniques.

The real world is a hot range and it's a sphere rather than a square.

Reluctance to carry a chambered round in a defensive firearm is a lack of training and "sportsman/hunter indoctrination issue.

 

[isp2605]

"Try 3 times a year.
I can't speak for all military pistol training, but in my training class we had former Army, Marine, Navy and Coast Guard. None of them had received the level of pistol training in those armed forces that they did in our training program. "

And some only go 1 time a year, some none. In my agency we went 4 times a year and a night/stress shoot.
I was also a USAF CATM (Combat Arms Training and Maintenance) instructor and Security Forces commander which was also over CATM prior to my military retirement. I also assisted Army and when at Hickam went over and worked with the Navy doing requals. The level of military handgun training is not to the level it can even be called training. It's familiarization. Having been extensively involved in the handgun training from both the LE side and the military side the 2 aren't even comparable. As you stated the military, and not all parts of the military, place more emphasis on rifle training than does LE. But for handgun the LE training far outshines the regular military handgun training.


"During said hole punching, you are not allowed to touch the weapon, ammunition, mags or anything until you are told to do so. IOW no thinking for one's self allowed."

Exactly correct, and even for the general rifle qual too. Weapons, mags and ammo are grounded and nothing better be touched until instructed to do so. After firing the string for each phase then the weapon is again grounded and the shooter steps away from the weapon. There is no handling a weapon until instructed and then the instructions are very specific.

 

[todd-45]

Is it safe to assume the bad guy will wait to assault you or your family until after you have racked the slide to load a round.

 

[ugaarguy]

Yep isp2605, I love how, during my last qual, I was told to tell the instructor if I thought I had squib. I raised my hand as instructed when I actually did get a round with lighter report and recoil. Rather than telling me to clear the weapon like they taught us to and supervise, he cleared it and popped the takedown pin for me and and told me to look down the barrel (from the breech of course) to assure it was clear. Then again, the guy next to me couldn't disassemble, clean, or reassemble his rifle without me walking him thru it. Great guy, good friend of mine, but mechanically clueless. When you have non shooters who truly don't know what they're doing it makes sense that qualification is so tightly controlled. If the budgets were better they could spend time to truly teach, and not hold your hand thru quals. However, you do what you can, and when I go for qual I try to help those around me since the instructors are usually busy with many folks at once.

 

[TeachMe]

Only as safe as you are

No offense intended, but leaving the chamber empty as SOP does not remove human error, but could instill a false sense of assurance. Assume it's loaded and treat it as such.

As far as self-defense goes, it is not a safe assumption that you will have the time or the free hand to rack the slide. I want to be able to defend myself at a moment's notice while fending off an attacker or after sustaining an injury which would limit my ability to rack the slide.