Is it really safe to carry an automatic with one round loaded in the chamber?

[Doug.38PR]

You could say "sure because you just need to hit the deCock switch or place the hammer down on or carry it cocked and locked or carry it with the safety on. It's safe to do that and you can get to it and use it as quickly as you could a revolver."

I used to say all of these arguments and they are true. However, my dad and I were having this discussion (an exMarine from '64-'67) and he placed an argument down on the table that even a pro gunman couldn't argue.

Human error. He considers semi autos "the most dangerous things in the world." I don't care how safety concious you are. I don't care how religious you are about checking your gun every time. I don't care how much of a genuine expert you are at firearms. There is always that one time that you will forget that there is a round in the chamber when you remove it from your holster or drawer to clean it and BANG!!!!. You can't see that it is loaded. (This especially true of XDs and Glocks that have no hammer) You can see a revolver loaded or not. An military situation for which the semi auto is designed is not going to be a "fast draw" situation. A pistol of any kind (revolver or semi auto) is a defensive weapon. Your rifle is a primary weapon. You pistol you pull and rack one in the chamber if it is all you have left and you can see the battle is about to begin (and then maybe put it on cocked and locked while you are in the danger zone)

He didn't have any data to support this, but said it wouldn't surprise him to learn that ND among police had increased since the move from revolvers to semi autos.

There is a reason that the military did not allow carry this way. It was not because they were too ignorant of cocked and locked. ND can and do happen.

I would say that it would be wise to carry a semi auto with the chamber empty and a full magazine in the gun. Pull it and with sweeping your free hand over the slide, pull it back and let it go and you are ready for action. Or if you are parking your car and see you are in a dangerous area, pull you gun and rack one in the chamber but as soon as you are safe, get that round out of the chamber.

But all this trouble being the case, I believe it wise to carry a revolver as a service/combat weapon and save a semi auto for field use in the military.

I am largely sold on this. A lot of people in here and other forums say the military didn't know what they were doing "back then" and didn't understand the semi automatic. (they fought two world wars, korea and vietnam with this empty chamber policy, I would think they knew far more than we do about what guns can and cannot do).

thoughts and comments? Considering this is a semi auto forum I know I am going to get barraged with cases against me

 

[mattw]

you're just an idiot if you don't consider all guns to be loaded all the time. so yes, condition one is just as safe as anything else.

 

[RNB65]

Sorry, but your dad was wrong.

 

[HammerBite]

I do not understand . . .

. . . how someone can clean a gun without removing the magazine and opening the slide . . . which is pretty much how you clear a gun, isn't it?

You generally have to pull the trigger for the gun to fire, and this is true for revolvers as well as semi-autos, so what's the extra hazard with the semi?

 

[ugaarguy]

We still have the empty chamber policy today with the M-16, you only charge the weapon when threatened or responding to a real/suspected threat. You should also remember that the old 1911s didn't have firing pin safeties. Above all IFF you obey the 4 rules;

1. Every gun IS loaded
2. Never point a weapon at anything you do not intend to DESTROY
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are aligned and you are ready to fire
4. Know your target and what lies beyond it

You won't have a problem, regardless of what type of firearm it is. Single shot, bolt action, pump, lever, semi-auto, revolver, et al. No gun design is any safer than the operator. I mean no disrespect, but your father's anti- semi-auto bias is ignorance. YOU control how safe any firearm is.

 

[Jim Watson]

Sorry, I do not consider a Marine an authoritative source on handgun use.
The military does not consider the handgun a major weapon and does not put much into training, there is plenty to occupy your time on the rifle and other weapons and equipment. Of course they represent a safety hazard, troops get little training and no practice with the sidearm.

If you are a cop or citizen the pistol is your only carry weapon and you had better know how to use it and to get it going in a hurry. Getting a gun with empty chamber going requires either both hands or a good deal of technique with one. You may not have those available when you need a gun.

So carry a revolver if you are scared of an automatic, I don't have to convince you to do it my way.

 

[cdsdss]

Look at it this way:

Every day hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Law Enforcement Officers of all stripes from local police to federal agents to mall security guards (in some cases) carry semi-autos with a round chambered. If they were so inherently dangerous wouldn't we be beset by a deluge of ND victims in local hospitals? Wouldn't responsible law enforcement agencies switch back to revolvers?

 

[Edmond]

I'm not going to carry my guns without a round in the chamber. To me, that's like not having gas in your tank and only putting gas in the tank when you need to go somewhere.

I don't consider Marines experts on pistol shooting, either. Rifles? Yes, but not pistols.

 

[Majic]

I would say that it would be wise to carry a semi auto with the chamber empty and a full magazine in the gun. Pull it and with sweeping your free hand over the slide, pull it back and let it go and you are ready for action.

And what do you do if you don't have a free hand?

 

[Onmilo]

Several years ago I went to clean my FN-FAL rifle.
The rifle was stored, chamber empty and with a loaded magazine locked in place.
I picked up the rifle, yanked the bolt handle back and checked to be sure the chamber was empty, let the bolt go home and pulled the trigger to drop the hammer.
Rifle discharged and shot a nice hole through one of the ceiling cross beams.

Lesson one, always remove the magazine BEFORE you check the chamber, DUH!
Lesson two, any firearm is only as safe as the idiot behind the trigger and anybody can make a mistake at any time, no matter how careful they are.
Lesson three, whether any semi automatic handgun can be safely carried or stored with a loaded chamber is dependent on the era of manufacture, the quality of the safety system, and the consciousness of the owner.

My question to the original poster is exactly how do you differentiate "service/combat use" from "field use in the military" and why do you think a revolver that has six or more loaded chambers and keeps a loaded chamber under the hammer at all times unless specifically loaded with an empty chamber under the hammer, a weapon that can be negligently or accidently fired just as easily as any other, is any safer than a chamber loaded semiautomatic handgun with several safety features designed into the gun that can prevent an accidental or negligent discharge as long as the weapon is handled properly???
I should also add that the Army at least, I can't talk for the other branches of service, but the Army had no policy of chamber empty carry when one was inclined to go in harms way.
Chamber empty and full loaded magazine was the norm during routine guard duty but in combat areas cocked and locked was most acceptable on the 1911A1 service pistol and no commissioned or non-commissioned officer I ever knew would swap someone down for carrying the service handgun condition one in a combat zone.

 

[bg226]

Many semi-autos have loaded chamber indicators.

 

[C-grunt]

In my unit in Iraq, we would leave our weapons unloaded in the FOB. But the moment you left the gate, EVERYONE cocks and locks. That includes the pistols.

Also, Im not worried about being attacked in a bad part of town. Im more worried about being attacked on the good parts of town when I might not be on the look out for it.

 

[ugaarguy]

C-grunt, sorry I forgot to clarify, that's on base defense that I was talking about. I'm in an Air Control Squadron and we train to set up and defend our own sites. Thankfully we stay within large bases when "over there." My hat's off to you guys & gals who go "outside the wire."

 

[10-Ring]

I've carried wheelguns & loaded semi autos w/ complete confidence in their safety. To me this is really an operator issue & if a person can be around guns safely they shouldn't be around guns.

 

[Captain America]

Yeah, our M4s were always in condition red (round chambered) whenever we were outside the wire in Iraq. During the invasion, we were even in red inside the wire (if there WAS one). We weren't leaving anything to chance.

You needed to be able to react in a split second. And our rifles were always at hand, not holstered. That's not even considering a CCW situation, where you pistol could be tucked inside a shirt, lengthening your reaction time even more.

You can bet that I will be cocked and locked when I carry my 1911. Anything I can do to tip the odds in my favor. Proper discipline and respect for your equipment will prevent any accidental discharges. It's all about maturity.

I'm not going to assume that I have time to draw my pistol (circumventing any shirt, jackets, etc in its way), load the first round, remove the safety(s), and pray that I've caught the BG sleeping while he was pointing his already brandished weapon at me. I'd rather rely on a bit more awareness of my actions, than not help myself out a great deal. CCW is already tricky enough.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

I've been an electrician for almost thirty years and in that time, I've never had a problem of checking a circuit dead before touching it with my hands. It is really quite simple to remember. What is so complicated about checking a pistol chamber before "cleaning" it?

As for military training, when I served, we were not even allowed to put the magazine in the firearm. You carried the .45 in a holster with the flap secured, a lanyard around your neck and 2 magazines in a magazine holder on the opposite side of the belt. The reason? Because there was virtually no training.

 

[1911 guy]

Discipline.

It boils down to discipline. If you don'ty have the self discipline to engage your brain every time you touch a firearm, please do yourself and everyone in your immediate vicinity a favor. Don't touch a firearm.

All firearms are always loaded. Period. If I pick a rifle out of my cabinet, I check the chamber. When I take the shottie down from the wall rack in the bedroom, I check the chamber. HD gun, it's "cruiser ready", so engaging the brain to deal with a full mag is mandatory. Holes in drywall tend to annoy the wife. 1911 is C&L, even in the safe by the bed. Safety is not a part time job when it may mean someone getting dead if you make a "mistake".

Shooting is not a "lowest common denominator" activity. Rise above the morons who blame their equipment for their failings. Your Dad didn't get to be an old Marine by being stupid. However, the training he got was geared toward the LCD (see " " above). Nobody has to stay there.

 

[XavierBreath]

Doug, your dad is wrong.

The XD has a loaded chamber indicator.

How can you tell if a revolver is loaded without opening the cylinder? Do you look between the cylinder and recoil plate for brass? If you see brass, do you then look down the barrel for lead? After all, it might be empty brass, right? It seems your dad needs to attend a handgun safety course. His USMC background does not give him the firearms authority he apparently believes he posseses.

The cause of negligent discharges both in the police and military ranks is lack of training. Today, officers get more training in social work and cultural awareness than they get in range time. The same goes for the military. The results are telling. Ignorance of firearms combined with their use is a recipe for negligent discharges. Sprinkle a little arrogance across the top, and it's only a matter of time. People are free to believe what they want, but if they do not have the knowledge base and credentials to instruct on firearms safety, they should refrain from teaching until they gain the knowledge and credentials. The fallacies they unwittingly teach could result in tragedy for someone.

The Army and Marine Corps had many NDs with the 1911. The majority of those were caused by lowering the hammer on a loaded chamber to achieve Condition 2. Why did troops do that? Because the man in the field saw a need for a loaded chamber and one handed operation of the weapon, but the cocked and locked hammer gave rear echelon officers the willies. Thus, troops tried to hide the fact they had a loaded chamber. The result was NDs from lowering a hammer on a loaded chamber. Before long, you began to see really stupid stuff, like Marines standing guard in Yokosuka Japan with no magazine in their piece. .

The 1911 was designed to be carried with a loaded chamber, on horseback, drawn with one hand, and fired, while the other hand remained on the reins to control one's horse. As usual, the military took a very good design and boogered it up with their own 4 star commitee conclusions. The same happened with the F16, the F18 and indeed the CVA.

Racking a slide under stress vs snicking off a thumb safety under stress is a huge difference. Racking a slide requires two hands, or a lot of skill hooking sights in a gunbelt. If an assailant has one of your arms occupied, you will not be racking your slide. In Condition 1 however, you can snick off the safety and use your weapon for something besides a club. Saying you will rack your slide when you see rouble coming begs the question why not simply leave and avoid the trouble? The truth is, trouble will catch the vigilant man by surprise. As civilians, only a fool prepares to engage trouble rather than avoid it.

Another thought for you Doug, NDs typically occur when a loaded chamber is cleared, when a round is removed from the chamber. By constantly loading and unloading your chamber, you are increasing your chances of a ND exponentially. Another consideration..... Each time that round is chambered, the bullet runs the risk of being set back in the shell a bit. One of the primary causes of KaBooms with factory ammo is bullets that have been set back through constant chambering and ejection. Unless you are measuring your carry amo for setback, each time you chamber and eject that first round, you are increasing the risk of personal injury when you fire it in your pistol.

There are a few semi-autos and revolvers that are not safe to carry with a loaded chamber, because the firing pin rests on the primer. These include some older Star pistols and SAA revolvers.

The Four Rules work. Barring mechanical failure, a ND is the result of at least two rules not being followed. It is easy to say don't load the gun and you will never have a ND. It is also true. If a person never gets in a car, they will never have an auto accident. If a person never goes up in an arplane they will never be in a plane crash. In other endeavors, we call these irrational fears, phobias, neurosis. the fear of a loaded chamber is much the same. It is rooted in ignorance, and the best cure is education. I recommend your father attend a NRA Handgun Safety Course before he has a ND of his own.

1. All firearms are always loaded
2. Never let the muzzle of a firearm point at anything you are not willing to destroy
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot
4. Be sure of your target and what is behind it

 

[Clipper]

Eliminate uncertainty...

...I keep the 6 handguns in my house loaded and chambered at all times. My wife and I can litterally grab any handgun we own, and be certain it will go bang when we pull the trigger. We don't worry about NDs because we live condition 1, 24-7.

 

[grislyatoms]

The only reliable firearm safety device is the one between your ears. Fail to engage that safety and bad things will happen.

I am reminded of an anecdote concerning a former Soviet(?) soldier doing some sort of firearm drill.

Instructor: "Please engage the safety on your weapon."
Soldier: "Safety? This is gun, is not safe!"

I have had a ND. I got in a hurry to load up my gear to go shooting and shot a nice 12 ga size hole in the wall. I got so torqued up about it I came close to selling all my guns and never touching one again. Granted, that was a long time ago and I was young, stupid, 10ft. tall and bulletproof.

Don't hurry. Pay attention.

I'm off the soapbox now.

 

[Hacker15E]

As a USAF pilot, we carry the M9 in our survival vest (on combat sorties) with one in the pipe, hammer down, and safety off -- ready for a double action trigger pull. This is the way the regulation specifies the pistol is carried.

 

[mmissile]

I always carry with one in the pipe. As stated before, your brain is the only real safety. I never let anybody handle ANY of my firearms til I'VE cleared the piece. 2cents.

 

[Cousin Mike]

I've owned auto's for years...

...and never had an accident of any kind, cocked and locked, loaded, or otherwise.

I bought a revolver (which I had only owned one previously in my life, and never even really touched it), and less than 24 hours later I shot my wall out...

So if you ask ME, I'd have to say a revolver is more volatile. But that's based on my experience.

I was being stupid. I wanted to show a friend my new gun before work, had it loaded (as I do all my guns), and went to cycle the cylinder with my thumb on the hammer...

I missed the hammer.

I got so torqued up about it I came close to selling all my guns and never touching one again.

Me too brother. Until I calmed down, and realized that if I wasn't playing with a loaded gun, the whole thing wouldn't have happened. That was the scariest thing that I've ever had happen, and also one of the weirdest experiences ever in my short 26 years on this planet. Now granted, I am used to autos. I am used to being able to drop a mag, check the chamber, and dry-fire or do whatever I want to do... Bottom line, I forgot what was in my hand, and the only reason I didn't shoot myself is because I had the thing pointed in a safe direction.

The girlfriend... She was VERY upset.

SO... Lesson learned. I was going to sell it, and thought of selling all my guns... Then I figured that if I just kept my finger off the trigger of loaded weapons, that would probably never happen again.

Now I'm even more careful with my autos, and that revolver stays open with a full cylinder. AD/ND's do happen, but if you ask me, it's not an issue of revolver or auto... It's an issue of personal responsibility. Keep the finger off the trigger, and it shouldn't go bang.

That said, an unloaded weapon won't do you any good if you should ever need to use it.. If you can't remember whether or not you racked the slide and chambered a round, then you probably shouldn't have one anyways.

Edited for TMI...

 

[carry2011]

There is always that one time that you will forget that there is a round in the chamber when you remove it from your holster or drawer to clean it and BANG!!!!. You can't see that it is loaded.

Manufacturing hasn't ever come up with something mechanical that's 100% reliable, and that includes mechanical safeties. There's the risk, IMO. Frankly, unless the always-loaded part of safety training can't be followed, one has no business carrying a firearm. It's that simple. Follow that, and there's about as little risk as there can be.

That said, I've carried 10yrs with a SW 442 Airweight revolver, mostly due to size/weight considerations. I now am carrying a CZ P-01 9mm semi-auto, which is a non-safety, decocker model. I fully respect the distinction and risk between semi-autos and revolvers, but feel the risk is 100% in my hands. So long as I treat it as 100% always loaded, that level of "respect" and control over the operation will avoid what for some seems unavoidable.

I'm carrying 14rds in the magazine, not 14+1 (one in the chamber). For me , this is due to retention concerns, not safety over control of the round in the chamber. I'm perfectly willing to practice racking the slide then aiming/shooting, as protocol, at the expense of possible loss of one round (racking when a round is already in the chamber).

How I get to this level of comfort:

• When carrying, know the gun is loaded.
• When transferring the gun from somewhere I've lost control or time (ie, the range bag, during transport, etc), assume the gun is loaded.
• When not intending to shoot but intending to manipulate the gun, first unload it and visually check (muzzle control, drop mag, rack slide, viz check).
• When transferring the gun to somewhere I'm about to lose control or time (ie, bag, holster), double-check the condition by the above routine. Loaded or not, but assume that it's loaded.

Not bullet-proof, I suppose, but that repetition helps ingrain the fact that these suckers are lethal and mishandling is 99.9% of the problem.

YMMV, of course, as it depends on competence and level of "respect" one gives to what is being carried.

 

[Grunt]

Tell your dad the same thing I tell my students; assume every weapon you come into contact with is loaded and ready to fire an to follow these 4 steps:

Safety: Attempt to turn the safety lever to the "ON" position. In the case of Glocks, XDs, H&K LEM and Sig DAK triggers, keep your buger hook off the boom button!

Magazine: Remove the magazine or whatever the source of your ammunition is.

Chamber: Visually and physically check the chamber to ensure there is no ammo or brass still in the chamber

Safety: If the safety lever could not be turned to the "ON" position earlier (say and M-4 carbine with the hammer down) turn the safety to the "ON" position now and make sure if you could put the safety on earlier that it hasn't been bumped into the "OFF" position.

Following these simple steps is a good way to ensure that there you now have a propperly cleared out weapon and is safe to handle. Of course, still follow the rules for safe gun handling at ALL times!!!