Is there a way to make birdshot useful for defense?

[Warp]

I dunno, if I got shot within reasonable range with 12ga birdshot, I think I'd be out of the fight. If it goes through plywood, I'm pretty sure a T shirt isnt much of a barrier...

Penetration of plywood is not equal to sufficient penetration to stop an attacker.

Now, so called psychological stops, as in, "oh my god I just got shot, I am going to stop doing what got me shot", that could be accomplished with just about anything, maybe even a BB gun.

But we don't want to rely on that, because somebody who is determined, or has adrenaline masking their even knowing they got shot, or is under the influence of this or that or the other, might just keep coming at you until they are physiologically stopped. And that takes more penetration than stinking plywood.

 

[chopinbloc]

Or even nice smelling plywood.

 

[Jackal]

It certainly may not meet the "minimum 12" standard, but there are plenty of birdshot deaths graphically depicted on Google images (not linking due to graphic nature). Seems that while the penetration is generally low, the dramatic trauma of having a 4" deep, 4" wide hole blown in you seems to put people down quite readily. We can sit here and scoff at it, but the actual live tissue evidence shows that simple bird shot gets the job done.

 

[chopinbloc]

There are likewise many examples of people who were shot with birdshot and didn't even require medical attention who would definitely not be with us if they had been shot with buckshot, but the plural of anecdote isn't "data".

 

[DaisyCutter]

I've seen suicides from birdshot, even from birdshot fired from a 10" long galvanized pipe, but that was with the barrel against the cranium or inside the mouth. Like repeated so many times before, birdshot doesn't penetrate or retain energy sufficiently across a room to be reliably lethal.

The myth that birdshot is equivalent to buck at indoor ranges is absurd. Still, people keep spouting it.

Maybe pry open the front of a #8 or #7-1/2 shotshell, empty the shot and mix JB weld with the shot before refilling? That could help.

 

[olafhardtB]

I have personally blown off animals heads with bird shot. I remember helping clean a hog that had been shot close range with a 16 ga promotional load of #6 shot. Its head was like a sack full of gravel. At true defensive distanses #5 birdshot blew raccoons and skunks to pieces. I guess these are anecdotes, they're also a fair amount of dead animals. I think birdshot is not only suitable for home defence but is far superior to handguns or rifles. A 20 gauge Mossburg 500 with a nice led flash light mounted to it, loaded with #4 or 5 shot costs about $300 at Wally World and it works!

 

[SVTOhio]

I have only ever seen a turkey laugh once, when my brother loaded up a 7 1/2 shot field load accidentally in his turkey gun (somehow one ended up in his vest and loaded in the dark without looking) . 20 yard shot, the turkey rolled and got up and ran off, no blood just a few feathers. Took us an hour to figure out what happened, until we checked the spent shell. I wouldn't trust in HD situation EVER! Well unless the attack of the sparrows happens.


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[45_auto]

Even at contact distance, birdshot does not penetrate adequately.

Again, even at contact distance, birdshot does not penetrate adequately.

but if you were to place the barrel literally touching the target, birdshot would still not adequately penetrate.

Repeating false information over and over does not make it true.

I've been on suicide callouts where a shotgun loaded with birdshot to the chest or head was used.

I fail to see how a 4" diameter hole completely through the body could be considered "inadequate penetration".

 

[Warp]

It certainly may not meet the "minimum 12" standard, but there are plenty of birdshot deaths graphically depicted on Google images (not linking due to graphic nature). Seems that while the penetration is generally low, the dramatic trauma of having a 4" deep, 4" wide hole blown in you seems to put people down quite readily. We can sit here and scoff at it, but the actual live tissue evidence shows that simple bird shot gets the job done.

The real world fact is birdshot is a poor stopper and a poor choice for stopping an attack.

Google is full of .22lr deaths too. Are you carrying .22lr in your pistol for defense? Well, maybe you are, but don't expect it to go well when you tell other people to do so (and don't expect it to go well if you must defend yourself with it, either)

Repeating false information over and over does not make it true.

I've been on suicide callouts where a shotgun loaded with birdshot to the chest or head was used.

I fail to see how a 4" diameter hole completely through the body could be considered "inadequate penetration".

Even if contact distance put a hole completely through the body (I doubt that is to be expected, even then), are you telling people they should rely on muzzle contact with their attacker? lol

But seriously, birdshot for home defense is not putting a 4" diameter hole completely through the body.

I think birdshot is not only suitable for home defence but is far superior to handguns or rifles.

What you think is horribly wrong.

 

[bassdogs]

Why does this ?? keep coming up? Other than in a pinch when nothing else is available its worth a try but as a first choice or a 5th choice, Why?

There has been volumes written on the subject of best or recommended SD loads and birdshot only comes up as a no other choice round. Same can be said for a small caliber like 22lr but if that is what you have at hand in an emergency then I join the group that say its better than an empty hand.

 

[HoosierQ]

I could not possibly disagree more about bird shot for self defense. If you were to unload a 12ga load of, say 7 1/2, into a target in a home invasion scenario, I believe that said 7 1/2 would be quite effective. Crank that up to what is still technically bird shot, #4, and you're really getting somewhere. Of course buck is better but bird is by no means useless.

 

[Acera]

I'd be willing to do it at 2" or so. I don't have a cool guy brake on my shotgun.

Do you have a 12 gauge shotgun that uses the 'Tru-Choke' system??

I got an extra Wad Wizard Breacher you could borrow for the test if you video it.
http://www.wadwizard.com/breachingtool.htm

I should keep you and your shotgun safe from damage if you wanted to do some contact videos.

PM me if interested.



.

 

[shafter]

I have only ever seen a turkey laugh once, when my brother loaded up a 7 1/2 shot field load accidentally in his turkey gun (somehow one ended up in his vest and loaded in the dark without looking) . 20 yard shot, the turkey rolled and got up and ran off, no blood just a few feathers. Took us an hour to figure out what happened, until we checked the spent shell. I wouldn't trust in HD situation EVER! Well unless the attack of the sparrows happens.

Big difference between 20 yards and 20 feet or less when it comes to birdshot. A shot to the face would rip the eyes out of an attackers head or tear his throat out. Birdshot is a terrible first choice load for your shotgun but if it's all you have, and the range is extremely close it can do plenty of damage. The key here being extremely close range.

 

[chopinbloc]

No, I don't. Thank you for the offer, though. I think I'll just place the muzzle against the block and then pull backwards slightly before shooting. If anyone wants to argue that a 2" gap is substantively different than contact, they can't be helped. I might tape some popsicle sticks to the muzzle for a standoff, just for the silliness.

 

[chopinbloc]

Because a lot of folks may have forgotten or the new folks maybe never saw this:

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/02/robert-farago/shotgun-penetration-with-various-rounds/

 

[pbearperry]

Years ago i was sent to a shooting.Male was shot with 12 ga. 7 1/2 birdshot round at a distance of several feet. Impact was to his stomach. He went down to the floor and was dead in minutes. X rays showed the torso full of shot and some made it to his neck area, his butt area also.There was very little exterior bleeding as the intestines protruded thru the wound sealing it off. However the internal bleeding was massive.

 

[Warp]

People have been one shot dropped dead right there with .22lr too. Trooper Coates is a well known example, and he was wearing body armour when he was shot in the torso for an immediate stop and DRT.

Does that mean we trust .22lr for defense? Nope.

Same for birdshot. Nobody cares that sometimes it does work, when the issue is deciding whether or not the choose it or trust it to work

 

[Vern Humphrey]

During the Tan War (the Irish War of Independence, 1920 - 21) the Irish were desperately short of weapons and ammunition. They would take birdshot and cut through the wall of the shotshell, leaving just enough wall to keep the shell from coming apart. On firing, the whole front of the shell would go down the bore and emerge as a projectils.

 

[230RN]

HoosierQ remarked,

I could not possibly disagree more about bird shot for self defense.

I, too disagree... without recommending bird shot.

I figure a 1 oz load of anything at, say (conservatively) 1100 feet per second, hitting an object with a collective energy of (coincidentally) about 1100 foot pounds, ought to create some devastating effect at living room ranges.

The "definition" of 12" penetration for effectiveness is sorta in reference to handgun bullets, and I don't think that's relevant to a cloud of tiny lead pellets as mentioned above.

And repeating the bit about "anecdotes don't mean data" is tiresome. Anecdotes are at the root of all science, it seems to me in a "Gee, that's odd" kind of sense.

And yes, I've cut a small tree down with a load of birdshot at more or less 10 feet --12 gauge, full choke, I recall it being a 1-1/8 ounce load of 7-1/2s.

I suspect, but cannot prove, that some people are arguing for the sake of argument, even though the thread's premise was more of a "just for funsies and grinsies" thing.

I will, however, object to the initial statement "Everyone knows that birdshot is next to useless for defense." Well, not everyone, despite the "next to useless" qualification.

I submit this for your amusement and possible edification:

https://youtu.be/GlNwaMX-QBU

4:45

Terry

 

[Warp]

HoosierQ remarked,



I, too disagree... without recommending bird shot.

I figure a 1 oz load of anything at, say (conservatively) 1100 feet per second, hitting an object with a collective energy of (coincidentally) about 1100 foot pounds, ought to create some devastating effect at living room ranges.

The "definition" of 12" penetration for effectiveness is sorta in reference to handgun bullets, and I don't think that's relevant to a cloud of tiny lead pellets as mentioned above.

And repeating the bit about "anecdotes don't mean data" is tiresome. Anecdotes are at the root of all science, it seems to me in a "Gee, that's odd" kind of sense.

And yes, I've cut a small tree down with a load of birdshot at more or less 10 feet --12 gauge, full choke, I recall it being a 1-1/8 ounce load of 7-1/2s.

I suspect, but cannot prove, that some people are arguing for the sake of argument, even though the thread's premise was more of a "just for funsies and grinsies" thing.

I will, however, object to the initial statement "Everyone knows that birdshot is next to useless for defense." Well, not everyone, despite the "next to useless" qualification.

I submit this for your amusement and possible edification:

https://youtu.be/GlNwaMX-QBU

4:45

Terry

Requiring penetration adequate to reach vital structures or organs is absolutely not limited to only handgun rounds

Anecdotes, when accurately relayed, can tell us that something is possible. They do not tell us that it is likely, or to be relied upon, or good to recommend. People have jumped out of airplanes with a faulty parachute and walked away...is it a good idea to do that? No. People have been shot and instantly stopped by birdshot. Is it a good idea to rely on birdshot to save your life? No.

 

[Jack R]

I dont know about any of you ..but I sure as hell would not want to get shot with bird shot at home defense range

 

[Deaf Smith]

Sure you can use birdshot for defense.. just get close... closer... closer still before you fire.

Don't fire till you see the whites in their eyes.

Deaf

 

[Warp]

I dont know about any of you ..but I sure as hell would not want to get shot with bird shot at home defense range

I sure as hell don't want to get shot by a .22lr out of a pistol...a pellet rifle...or a slingshot. Hell, I don't even want somebody to cast their fishing lure with barbed hooks at me.

The question is not, in any way, "do you want to get shot by ____"

 

[Vern Humphrey]

..but I sure as hell would not want to get shot with bird shot at home defense range

I would not want to be shot with a BB gun. But that doesn't make either a BB gun or birdshot a good choice for self-defense. Particularly when there is no NEED to use bird shot -- a box of buckshot is fairly cheap.

 

[Gun Master]

Amen, Vern!

rc would have liked that answer, too.