Vern Humphrey
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God bless RC.
Is there a way to make birdshot useful for defense?
- Thread starter chopinbloc
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X-Rap
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To answer the OP, if I had a bunch of game loads I wanted to make good use of, I'd go shoot a bunch of dove.
Have they stopped selling buckshot? Has it been outlawed?
If you have a shotgun and wish to capitalize on its versatility you need to stock some shot from 7.5's - 00 and slugs at a minimum and ad whatever novelty rounds blow your skirt up then you aren't faced with the poor choice of defending yourself with inferior ammunition.
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Have they stopped selling buckshot? Has it been outlawed?
If you have a shotgun and wish to capitalize on its versatility you need to stock some shot from 7.5's - 00 and slugs at a minimum and ad whatever novelty rounds blow your skirt up then you aren't faced with the poor choice of defending yourself with inferior ammunition.
Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
45_auto
Member
chopinbloc said:
From the link you provided:
What was that known distance and angle? That is pretty important information to know.
This guy shoots birdshot through various materials such as denim and drywall into meat and gelatin from a distance of about 10 feet:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97sjv11yesc
Although bad enough, the piece of meat at about 3:10 and 4:40 (from 10 feet) isn't even close to the damage you'll see from close range birdshot.
The gelatin penetration at 5:55 from 11 feet (through two layers of drywall) looks very similar to the penetration from the unknown distance that you linked to.
This guy is a pathologist, and has a couple of pics of real life close range birdshot wounds if you're really that interested.
I won't post the direct link to the pics, but you can scroll down his "Violence, Accident, Poisening" discussion to the section on shotgun injuries about halfway down and click on the links to pictures of a close-up birdshot wound to the chest (what's left of it) if you don't believe that birdshot is effective at close range.
http://www.pathguy.com/lectures/env-23.htm
chopinbloc said:
What color is the sky in your world?
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Cannibul
Member
The distance is buried in the article. It was 3 feet.
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chopinbloc
Member
Clear gel has been known to produce inaccurate penetration results, but in this case, it appears to be fairly close. The results at five feet are likely to be very similar to the results at three feet. Pellets don't lose much velocity over two feet.
Yes, birdshot makes large, shallow wounds. No one has ever disputed that. What's your point?
Sunray
Member
Dunno where you get the idea bird shot is useless. Use the right choke.
1 ounce of, say, number 4 shot out of a turkey or full choked shotgun at house fighting distances is as destructive as anything else. Doesn't need to be a magnum either. Typical full choke patterns at 10 and 15 yards are 9" and 12" respectively. 16" at 20 yards. That roughly 135 lead pellets into 9". More if you're using steel. All at around 1300 fps.
Average human torso is roughly 18" shoulder blade to belt. Fill it will wee shot and you're problem is solved.
1 ounce of, say, number 4 shot out of a turkey or full choked shotgun at house fighting distances is as destructive as anything else. Doesn't need to be a magnum either. Typical full choke patterns at 10 and 15 yards are 9" and 12" respectively. 16" at 20 yards. That roughly 135 lead pellets into 9". More if you're using steel. All at around 1300 fps.
Average human torso is roughly 18" shoulder blade to belt. Fill it will wee shot and you're problem is solved.
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chopinbloc
Member
A tight pattern doesn't make birdshot penetrate any more deeply. Birdshot simply lacks the sectional density to penetrate deeply enough to reliably incapacitate bad guys. Period. Full stop. End of transmission.
Vern Humphrey
Member
The question I have is, WHY?
Buckshot is cheap. Same with slugs. Why PLAN to have birdshot in your gun when you life is on the line?
Buckshot is cheap. Same with slugs. Why PLAN to have birdshot in your gun when you life is on the line?
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chopinbloc
Member
There are, indeed, many different sizes of bird shot. NONE of them meet the recommended 12 inches of penetration.
Gun Master
Member
BirdShot ??? - I Don't Think So !
I'm in (somewhat of ) a comfort zone using #6,#5,#4 shot (but no smaller) within my home. Why not have #00 buck for most situations ? The only exception I am able to cogitate is 12 gauge slugs for bear, but none have seen around here lately, except for the zoo. (Yes, bear have been known to break into homes in other places.)
I'm in (somewhat of ) a comfort zone using #6,#5,#4 shot (but no smaller) within my home. Why not have #00 buck for most situations ? The only exception I am able to cogitate is 12 gauge slugs for bear, but none have seen around here lately, except for the zoo. (Yes, bear have been known to break into homes in other places.)
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Are there any that even come close? If so, I haven't seen them.
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chopinbloc
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BB gets some pellets past the 12" mark. Magnum loads of larger sized birdshot can too, but magnum loads are not ideal for defense, either because of excessive recoil, flash, and blast.
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chopinbloc
Member
The advantage to buckshot is only at close range. Buckshot damages a wider volume of tissue than a slug does. Not that there is anything wrong with a 350 gr .72 cal bullet at 1,200 fps, either.
tubeshooter
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This has been an interesting thread.
Maybe I am overthinking this, but if it becomes known in court that you altered some birdshot to make it more effective for HD I believe that could and probably would be used against you. Especially in a civil suit.
I actually keep my 1st shell as bird shot, mostly in case of an AD/ND. I have done this for many years and I always stay very aware that if it is a serious situation I need to go to shell #2 very quickly. For the record I think bird shot would do grievous injury at "same room" distance.
Maybe I am overthinking this, but if it becomes known in court that you altered some birdshot to make it more effective for HD I believe that could and probably would be used against you. Especially in a civil suit.
I actually keep my 1st shell as bird shot, mostly in case of an AD/ND. I have done this for many years and I always stay very aware that if it is a serious situation I need to go to shell #2 very quickly. For the record I think bird shot would do grievous injury at "same room" distance.
For most people a major advantage of buckshot is less dramatic interior wall penetration than slugs
The-Reaver
Member
From your bedroom down the hall to the living room it'll work just fine imo. Then again, I dont live in a 700k$ house so experience might very.
The question is...on what do you base this opinion?
Cut shells or wax slugs won't cycle reliably. They're only good for single shot use.
I have fooled with wax slugs and they are fun for playing around or range practice without spending a dollar per shot.
Will bird shot produce lethal wounds? Absolutely. Can you depend on it to snuff out an adrenaline fueled attacker thats possibly under the influence on the spot 100% of the time? I don't.
Pain from a wound doesn't set in until minutes afterward. If you don't immediately do significant damage to bone structure, organs, or the nervous system, the attacker is still in the fight and can inflict damage or return fire.
I have fooled with wax slugs and they are fun for playing around or range practice without spending a dollar per shot.
Will bird shot produce lethal wounds? Absolutely. Can you depend on it to snuff out an adrenaline fueled attacker thats possibly under the influence on the spot 100% of the time? I don't.
Pain from a wound doesn't set in until minutes afterward. If you don't immediately do significant damage to bone structure, organs, or the nervous system, the attacker is still in the fight and can inflict damage or return fire.
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JTHunter
Member
Rather than cutting open a shell and melting the lead (fumes are dangerous!), try mixing up some epoxy and pour it into the carefully pried open shell. If you use a blow dryer to warm the epoxy up immediately after pouring it onto the birdshot, the epoxy will get more fluid and run down into the shell more easily.
Once the epoxy has cured, the top of the shell can be folded up and closed - IF you have been careful in opening it.
Once the epoxy has cured, the top of the shell can be folded up and closed - IF you have been careful in opening it.
Deus Machina
Member
I'm growing less and less convinced in the twelve-inch minimum for most personal defense at home ranges.
At least in my case. There is no place in my home I can shoot from over 7 yards.
I'm more a believer in volume of wound. Smaller holes need to penetrate deeper to achieve that and assure something important gets hit.
In my situation, there's plenty within six inches of the surface if you have enough holes. In my apartment, birdshot would suffice, or turn a limb useless.
That doesn't mean I'd load it up instead of 00 or even #4, if I had the choice.
At least in my case. There is no place in my home I can shoot from over 7 yards.
I'm more a believer in volume of wound. Smaller holes need to penetrate deeper to achieve that and assure something important gets hit.
In my situation, there's plenty within six inches of the surface if you have enough holes. In my apartment, birdshot would suffice, or turn a limb useless.
That doesn't mean I'd load it up instead of 00 or even #4, if I had the choice.
230RN
2A was "political" when it was first adopted.
Somehow I get the impression that you're thinking of individual pellets, without considering the effects of a whole mass of pellets striking at once... even over a (say) 6" diameter circle. Almost instantaneously.
Eleven hundred foot-pounds (conservative) is eleven hundred foot pounds and doesn't get any less by talking about individual pellets. Let alone the effect of successive teeny little pellets impacting from further back in the shot string.
I also suspect some folks here are arguing just to keep the argument going.
Full stop. End of transmission. Control-Z. 73.
With all good humor and all due respect,
Terry, 230RN
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Vern Humphrey
Member
I recommend making up a test "wall" of sheetrock and 2X4s and seeing how much 00 Buck will penetrate -- it will go through several walls!
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