Is this bad behavior in a gun shop

[S&W620]

John, I'm not disagreeing with you when it comes to different folks wanting different things from their LGS. I do disagree that you can't have both from a gun store. If folks care to do internet shopping, cater to them. If folks want to come and and do things face to face, cater to them as well. Obviously the selection and prices won't be the same for both parties, but both parties will get what they want. There are two LGS's in my area that do just that. They are more than happy sell you a gun from off the shelf as well as happy to do the transfer. They get my business because of that.

As far as transferring guns becoming more difficult, I'll take my chances and cross that bridge when I come to it.

 

[JohnKSa]

If folks care to do internet shopping, cater to them.

Got to keep perspective here. The internet shopping complaint came up over ACCESSORIES, not firearms. There's no way a brick & mortar shop can cater to someone who wants them to price match internet sold accessories. They might be able to do it once in awhile if they get a screaming deal from their wholesaler, but it's not going to happen often. And no one's going to pay them to do transfers for accessories.

Obviously the selection and prices won't be the same for both parties,

But that's what the OP wants. I want service/interaction/etc. AND I want you to match the prices I get online when I order through an automated system.

I'll take my chances and cross that bridge when I come to it.

If it does come to it, there won't be any easy or cheap way to cross the bridge. It often pays to plan ahead.

There are two LGS's in my area that do just that. They are more than happy sell you a gun from off the shelf as well as happy to do the transfer. They get my business because of that.

Next time you're in there, point out an accessory they sell and tell them that you can buy that $5 cheaper online. Be sure to do it in front of another customer.

See how happy they are then.

 

[Serenity]

I guess your method of customer service works for you, or you wouldn't still be in business.

 

[S&W620]

As far as accessories, simply explain the situation, politely, to the customer. Internet prices on any product aren't exactly hidden, anyone with an internet connection can find them so the presence of other customers shouldn't be an issue.

If someone is in the store and is purchasing a particular item, chances are they know what the cost is online and have simply chosen to purchase the item in person for one reason or another. I guess my point to this is that you probably aren't going to be unleashing earth shattering info to anyone who happens to overhear your conversation.

Why should they be upset if someone says "so and so has it cheaper"? Should every car salesman go off on a tirade to every customer who tries to leverage a better deal? Folks are always going to try to work a price down on anything they think they have a shot at. Is that a reason to be insulted? I think not. Simply explain the situation respectfully and allow the customer to make whichever decision is right for them. It may not work out for the LGS in that particular instance, but the customer will probably appreciate the honesty and look their way in the future if possible.

As far as what the OP wanted, he ended up with neither really. The LGS was unable to provide the product (gun previously ordered and ammo), the price (magazine) or the service (attitude, follow up on previous order). Sounds to me like the OP simply wanted a halfway competent individual who would follow through with his order after accepting his money (in full), keep opinions regarding desired ammo to himself and keep his hands off of his person. Doesn't seem like irrational requests to me.

For some reason the LGS seems to be the one place where the the employees seem to think the customers should cater to them, instead of the other way around.

 

[theautobahn]

Do you know what I take from all this? That I'm DARN lucky to have the LGS that I do. I live in Southern Maine and am about 30-45 minutes from both Cabela's and the Kittery Trading Post. I still would try to buy from my LGS as he displays all the traits I'm looking for (and is only five minutes down the road):

He does not charge a transfer fee. He simply asks that you give him first crack at whatever you're buying and if he's within $10-$20, you buy it from him.

His prices on new and used guns are super low (I am always tempted to walk out of there with guns that I have no use for, just because they're such good deals). When ordering a new gun, he throws his wholesale catalog at you and tells you to grab the stock number, whereby you also see the price. I have no doubt that he probably gets a discount off of that, but it makes me feel better that he's so open about it.

His prices on ammo are SUPER low (beats the big stores, including WM on any caliber I'm interested in).

He's knowledgeable. We might not always have the same opinions / tastes, but he always justifies what he says.

His customer service is absolutely top notch. A buddy bought a pistol, had multiple failures to go into battery with both magazines. Instead of sending the new pistol back under warranty, he swapped it out with another brand new gun (after doing new paperwork) and dealt with the factory himself so my friend wouldn't be without the gun (a carry piece) for however long. That right there was reason enough for me to continue patronizing his establishment.

And if you want to look at a gun he has? You just grab it out of the case or off the wall yourself (and yes, I asked - in 20something years nothing has gone missing).

 

[DarkswordDX]

Nushif has the right idea. The old-fashioned mom and pop style gun stores are an endangered breed, but we're also the only place when you can go in and talk to an actual person and handle the actual gun you're thinking of buying.

And when and if you have a problem, we're not a faceless robotic answering machine or cold text in an email, you can actually come in and we'll talk to you face to face and do our damnedest to help you. We appreciate people who appreciate us, and we'll stop just short of doing backflips for our good customers.

Think of it like this: You go into the little mom and pop grocery mart on the corner (if your town even has any of these left) and in front of everyone you hand the owner a Wal-Mart sales flyer and say "Well their eggplants are cheaper, why can't you price match? They must just have a better business model!"

Think the owner would be out of line for thinking you're a disrespectful retard? I get irate when I see people defending that kind of behaviour. It's what is killing, and has killed, many family gun stores over the last two decades.

 

[theautobahn]

And when and if you have a problem, we're not a faceless robotic answering machine or cold text in an email, you can actually come in and we'll talk to you face to face and do our damnedest to help you. We appreciate people who appreciate us, and we'll stop just short of doing backflips for our good customers.

I agree 100%. As an old boss of mine so eloquently put it... "you have someone to grab by the throat when there's an issue".

Think of it like this: You go into the little mom and pop grocery mart on the corner (if your town even has any of these left) and in front of everyone you hand the owner a Wal-Mart sales flyer and say "Well their eggplants are cheaper, why can't you price match? They must just have a better business model!"

Point taken, but look at the overall picture. It sounds like the OP frequents this shop. He has a gun on order. If I were a shop owner, I would occasionally make a "break even" deal, or even one in which I lost a couple of dollars to keep a regular customer happy.

And while I certainly would probably consider the customer a

disrespectful retard

, I would still treat them with respect and explain why I couldn't make the deal they were looking for, not tell them they were an idiot for asking in the first place.

 

[S&W620]

Darksword, the mom and pop shops aren't being killed off by people telling other people about others stores lower prices (the behavior that makes you 'irate'), they are killed off because the other stores actually have lower prices.

As far as the LGS handling problems for me, what is that worth? If I'm spending the money on a new AR and I'm looking at a couple hundred dollar price difference between the internet price and the price from the 'helpful' LGS, I'll go ahead and make the phone calls to the CS rep myself on the CHANCE that I need to do so, and in the process keep the difference for myself. But then again, I'm not sensitive enough to care about cold, faceless emails and answering machines.

 

[rspeters]

I truly believe that a mom and pop shop can survive if they have good enough customer service to make it worth it for people to go to them as opposed to buying online. When a shop has that level of service, their customer base is more loyal, and those customers tell all their friends, who in turn also become loyal customers.

The problem is most gun enthusiasts that open up gun stores have no idea what customer service is, and then they blame their failure on something other than their customer service (such as overhead).

Most online gun shops don't have great customer service either, but they don't need to because of their prices.

 

[happygeek]

I support my LGS as much as my wallet can tolerate. If I'm looking for something in particular and my LGS has it at a reasonable price over an internet price, I'll buy from them. Reasonable price translates into; price of the item + sales tax + 10%. If this price does not fall within five or ten dollars of the cost to do an online purchase, I pass. I work hard for the few dollars the government lets me keep and I have to spend wisely. If that means I take my business to the competition, so be it!

Ya'll must make more money than I do. I wouldn't, and don't if I can avoid it, pay 10% extra on anything. I'm a recreational runner and weightlifter, but I don't patronize the local supplement store. I'm a computer guy as my screen name indicates, but I don't patronize the local computer or video game store (I prefer Newegg and Amazon). Ditto for books.

Indirectly everything competes with everything. If I pay 10% extra for mags, ammo, or books for that matter that's $x less of my disposable income that can go to another book or video game. Why should I pay extra to a re-seller when the Internet enables me to buy directly from the distributor? Some want service, or just want to hang out at the Barnes & Noble coffee shop, it's their life and their money. All I really want is reviews and low prices, and Amazon and Newegg are very good at that.

That said I wouldn't haggle with a LGS owner over a magazine price; chances are I wouldn't be in the store to begin with. I don't bother driving around to 3 or 4 physical stores to price compare, gas isn't exactly free right now, and I can price compare various online stores from the comfort of my recliner without giving OPEC a penny (which also cuts into that aforementioned disposable income).

Edit to add: ordered two used books and a Hex receiver Mosin yesterday, all three items shipping straight to my front door. God bless the Internet.

 

[HOOfan_1]

Think the owner would be out of line for thinking you're a disrespectful retard?.

No, but he is out of line when he chases a guy outside, puts his hands on him and tells him how he should act

The old-fashioned mom and pop style gun stores are an endangered breed

Retail is retail, this is a free market economy, if you want to survive then you learn to deal with competition and you learn to deal with customers you don't agree with. Customer service is as much about how you handle customers you disagree with as it is with making something right when someone has a legitimate beef.

I have been in a few "mom and pop" gun stores that give the frosty attitude as soon as you walk in the door. They don't get my money, and from the people I talk to at the range, they don't get much money at all. I go to the "mom and pop" stores that have a customer friendly attitude, and know how to run a business. There are several great "mom and pop" stores in my area and they are always wall to wall crowded. I'll go to the big box stores where corporate managers demand customer service with a smile before I go to a "mom and pop" where the owners glares at me as soon as I walk in the door. I'm pretty sure if it weren't for the Firearms act of 1968 keeping just anyone from selling a gun, these "mom and pop" stores with condescending attitudes would have been gone long ago.

As a retail manager who has had to swallow my pride plenty of times, I get irate when gun shops, or "mom and pop shops" are given some sort of free pass on the being polite to the customer front.

Some people are acting like the OP was trying to make a 5 finger discount. How hard is it for the owner of the store to say "I can't match that price because I will lose money"...That isn't tough at all...and it certainly isn't out of line. I personally think asking for price match at a retailer short of a car dealership is a little tacky...I wouldn't do it myself, but I am not going to go into a rage because someone does it in my store. If he went in and started loudly stating "your prices suck, I can get better deals there there and there", then it might be time to ask them to leave.

 

[JohnKSa]

Why should they be upset if someone says "so and so has it cheaper"? Should every car salesman go off on a tirade to every customer who tries to leverage a better deal?

This describes two different things and neither of them is exactly what the OP did.

It's pretty clear from the original post that what upset the store owner was NOT so much the fact that he made a comment about someone else having it $10 cheaper but the fact that he did so in front of another customer.

Asking/leveraging for a lower price/better deal is one thing. That's generally acceptable although it's a bit out of the ordinary on relatively inexpensive items like accessories. Telling a store owner that someone else sells it cheaper is a bit rude but still within the realm of barely reasonable. Doing all of that in front of another customer is going to make any store owner unhappy. He may be able to handle it constructively, he may not, but either way he won't be smiling inside and I think that we should all be able to understand why.

No, but he is out of line when he chases a guy outside, puts his hands on him and tells him how he should act

You might want to read the post again. He put his arm around the guy to lead him to the area with the magazines he was inquiring about, not after "chasing him outside".

What I really don't like is that he took you outside and basically admonished you for trying to haggle.

Ditto. 1. He did NOT "take the OP outside", he followed the OP outside as he was leaving. 2. The owner did NOT admonish the OP for "trying to haggle", he told him not to tell other customers where/how they could buy stuff for less while in the owner's shop.

But the moment he puts his arm around me and "tells me how it is"

He did no such thing. He put his arm around the OP to lead him to the area with the mags he inquired about.

Telegraph operators were a dying breed not too long after the telephone came out too. It's called creative destruction.

Witty... So what's your equally witty model for getting guns once "creative destruction" has eliminated the folks who can do transfers for you?

If I were a customer in the store and saw the owner throw someone out...

No one was thrown out. Read the original post again. The OP LEFT the store and the owner followed him out, told him that he shouldn't act that way "around his customers" and asked him to think about it.

Darksword, the mom and pop shops aren't being killed off by people telling other people about others stores lower prices (the behavior that makes you 'irate'), they are killed off because the other stores actually have lower prices.

What kills them off is NOT the lower prices, it's that customers don't understand why it's important to have a few LGS in their area even though an LGS can't match the big box and online store prices.

 

[Serenity]

But customer service is somewhere that they CAN compete and BEAT the big box stores. Instead of taking advantage of that level playing field, apparently some have an adversarial relationship with their customers

My local LGS is awesome.

 

[Onward Allusion]

Heh, 2 day old thread and it already has 4 pages. Shop with your wallet. I no longer shop locally because of LGS attitude.

Did you know that CDNN has specials every other week on the Ruger OEM 25 round 10/22 mags? They usually go for $19.99 with a qty 3 limit but shipping is $5.99. Even at Midway, you'd come out ahead if you order 2 or more.

 

[CZguy]

I enjoyed post #87. Good examples of how rumors get started.

I patronise my LGS because I primarily buy used guns, and being able to carefully inspect a gun is very important to me. On the rare occasion that I buy new, I let my LCS do the transfers for me.

I like my dealer........but I'm not related to him.

 

[BSA1]

I walk in the gun shop with my girlfriend to check on a handgun I ordered and paid in full 2 weeks prior. This is besides the point, but when I went to order he said his dealer had them in stock, now all of a sudden he doesn't know when nor can he find one. ( really annoying since I wanted it yesterday )

Apparently you have not been paying attention to the current political situation. Gun and ammunition sales are at record levels with both often out of stock with no backorders. I am reguarly encountering products being listed for sale only to find they are out-of-stock when I call the distributor. I don't see intent on the LGS to defraud you. Your admission is he gave you a good price on the gun. What you don't mention is whether any other LGS have or can get the gun.

I then notice an Arsenal SGL has in there that's 7.62x39, I ask if he has any in 5.45 he says no and tells me I could go to JG sales up the street. I ask why he doesn't have any he then tells me some crap about how that round isn't going to be around long, and that it's not proven ( as if it just came out yesterday ).

I don't see the problem here. He not only told you he didn't have the product in stock and referred you to a competitor that does.

As for him not stocking your favorite ammo it is always easy to criticize when it isn't your money tied up in inventory.

Then I looked to see if He had a ruger BX-25 round mag for a 10-22 he did, they were 30 bucks for 1. I said if I were to buy a couple could you come down on price a little since they are online for 20 bucks, and it's tax free. He then puts his arm around me as if I am some noob and walks me over to show me the 2 ruger BX-25 round mags he has that are used, that are still 24 bucks ( again I saw this since they are in the same bin as the new ones. ) I say alright then leave.

Well kiss my rebel backside. The nerve of him to sell a product at suggested retail. I know if I was him I sure would appreciated you coming into my store and telling my customers how overpriced I am. Gee, here is another store having the to charge retail price;
http://www.cabelas.com/product/Ruger174-BX-258482-Magazine/1229746.uts?Ntk=AllProducts&searchPath=%2Fcatalog%2Fsearch.cmd%3Fform_state%3DsearchForm%26N%3D0%26fsch%3Dtrue%26Ntk%3DAllProducts%26Ntt%3Druger%2Bbx-25%26WTz_l%3DHeader%253BSearch-All%2BProducts%26x%3D24%26y%3D10&Ntt=ruger+bx-25&WTz_l=Header%3BSearch-All+Products

He follows me out the gunshop and tells me I need to not act like that in there around his customers since it's a little shop and told me to think about it, i did, I don't see what's wrong with simply just asking if they could match a price. There was one old guy in there walked in as I was asking. Like really, I can't ask to if he can match a price

He had the courtesy to talk to you in private whereas your idea was to criticize him in the presence of his customers. Maybe the old guy which you look down on had a wallet full of cash. In my part of the country old guys like that are often farmers with lots of disposable income.

As if I am really taking away from his business since I said they have a sale at midwayusa for 21 bucks instead of his 30 dollars for the ruger mag. ( you may think it's not much , but I wanted to buy a few so 10 bucks difference per mag really adds up ) But anyway he has the nerve to say that, after telling me to go to the gunshop up the street for an Arsenal in 5.45 instead of offering to me he could order one if I wanted it.

IT REALLY PISSED ME OFF, I am thinking about calling my cc and canceling my purchase i put in the few weeks before for the handgun I wanted, and having a different shop order it for me, and not going back there again.

Am I in the wrong here, in the situations I posted?

You are doing your best to get even for your hurt feelings by bad mouthing him on discussion forums (I see you had no problem posting the name and location of his shop) and putting him out of business. You absolutely should cancel your order as part of your effort to get even with him.

AND WE WONDER WHY MORE AND MORE LGS's ARE GOING OUT-OF-BUSINESS.

 

[BADUNAME37]

I called my LGS a couple years ago, asked for the price on a certain pistol. The guy told me the price, I felt it was reasonable and told him to go ahead and order it.

The gun came in about a week later, I get a telephone call to come in and get it. I go in and find that the price quoted me is not really the price, as "the new guy behind the counter" didn't know that he was giving me the wrong price.

So, I have the opportunity to buy the gun for about $29 more than I had planned (that is, $29 more than was quoted to me), or I can refuse to purchase the gun altogether, or I can demand that the gun be sold for the price quoted me.

Since I took the time to drive over to the store and since the store now had the gun sitting on the counter, I preferred to go ahead and buy the gun, however, I demanded that the gun be sold for the price quoted me. I did this in front of several other customers who hang out there.

Yes, the gun store OWNER was upset and angry, however I cannot control how his workers treat customers when the OWNER is not there. I also cannot control just how the guy behind the counter figures the price of a new gun.

I would not have even ordered the thing had I known beforehand that it was going to be that much more expensive, as I had been shopping around and was aware of what the going rate was of that particular gun in my area.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

AND WE WONDER WHY MORE AND MORE LGS's ARE GOING OUT-OF-BUSINESS.

I don't. It's an outdated business model. No one wondered why the Pony Express went out of business.

 

[ForumSurfer]

The nerve of him to sell a product at suggested retail. I know if I was him I sure would appreciated you coming into my store and telling my customers how overpriced I am. Gee, here is another store having the to charge retail price;

You're right. That makes it totally OK to charge %20 more than competitors. We all know suggested retail is the suggested "you paid too much price." That being said, many accessories are hard to find and suggest retail is becoming more common place.

My LGS can't beat online prices on accessories. I still buy from them if they have what I want in stock because they are good people. If he were to put his arm around me and walk me over to something I'd already looked at, then follow me outside (without properly asking "Hey, could I have a word with you alone?)...yeah, we'd have a problem. That's rude if you ask me. A simple "Bud, these are getting hard to get my hands on...the price you see is the price you get" would have sufficed. Don't put your hands on me like you're my long lost brother (unless you are)...a hand shake and a pat on the back will do...and don't follow me outside concerning business in the store.

I'll spend my money happily at an LGS where the people are good people. However, I won't pay %25 over Brownells or Midway no matter how nice you are and I won't order a product if the LGS isn't sure when or where they can get it.

 

[BSA1]

The general feeling I get is run the s.o.b. out of business. Of course when that happens there is one less FFL dealer to buy guns through. One less dealer means less competition and less need to be competitive on prices and no doubts brings smiles to the anti-gunners.

 

[Tex4426]

@ friendly ...I had the same thing happen to me but he realized it was his fault and sold it to me at the quoted price

 

[rellascout]

Witty... So what's your equally witty model for getting guns once "creative destruction" has eliminated the folks who can do transfers for you?.....

What kills them off is NOT the lower prices, it's that customers don't understand why it's important to have a few LGS in their area even though an LGS can't match the big box and online store prices.

I think you are wrong on this point. It is not that all the FFLs are going to go away and there will be no one to do transfers. It is that the business model of the local FFL will change or they will go out of business and be replaced by those who understand the new business enviroment of guns. In all business when the market changes some adapt and survive others fail but in the end most are replaced by new models based on current conditions.

The days of a large shop with tons of inventory are over and its not just guns. Ask Best Buy how well the big box playbook is working for them these days.... When the old shops running the old model go out of business they will be replaced by new shops with a different business model.

I see this in my town in WV. The old established FFL who sells at MSRP is not growing. He is barely keeping his head above water. 90% of the stock is the same from one week to the next. Many people go there out of habit but people new to the area will not pay his prices. He will not do transfers for anything he has in stock. He is clinging to the old way and in the end as the local gun consumer becomes better educated he will have to adapt or he will go under.

People who are new to the area or have access to knowledge basis like THR do not shop at the big FFL in town anymore. They have found a new source which is a small format FFL who has 1/3 of the stock on hand. He stocks only what moves quickly and orders the rest. He has grown in the last 2 years from a table top guy doing shows to a full time retailer. He has grown the right way selling guns for a reasonable mark up. taking guns in trade, ordering guns and doing transfer at a reasonable price.

He does $10 transfers and uses every single one of them as an opportunity to grow his business. He will ship your gun to another FFL for the same $10 plus the cost of USPS. He understands the current FFL market. His business is growing. He is adding people and expanding hours. He understands that if he can make $$$ on every interaction even if its only $10 its good for him in the long run. He does not have to be everything to everyone. He has to be smart and turn over his inventory fast. He is able to get within a few dollars of online guys like Buds because he has kept his overhead low.If you ask he will meet or beat a lot of online pricing and if he can't he will complete your transfer for $10 with a simle on his face.

He uses gunbroker to reach a larger customer base and on got to have it now items like the Ruger 1911s improves his margin when he does not have a local buyer on the waiting list. He has had online buyers pay $850 Buy it now for these guns when his reserve was $650. He keeps his business lean and in a business world where the fast eat the slow this is the way a new breed of FFLs will not only survive but thrive.

The old way is dying and if they are not willing to change they will become extinct and I for one will not morn them. The concept that there will be no one to do your transfers is a red herring. It is nothing more than that. We do not and IMHO will not have to put up with poor service and inflated prices in order to be able to transfer firearms now or in the future....

 

[ForumSurfer]

I agree with Rella, but I would like to add a point.

The "new" way requires much, much more work on the dealer's part. More transfers (because the ffl up the street charges $25+ dollars hoping to discourage online purchases) so more paperwork, online ads require time spent writing/photographing and researching prices to stay competitive costs time.

I have seen one local store take this approach. Within a matter of months they went from a quiet little shop to being so busy it is actually hard to get a salesperson.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Witty... So what's your equally witty model for getting guns once "creative destruction" has eliminated the folks who can do transfers for you?.....

What kills them off is NOT the lower prices, it's that customers don't understand why it's important to have a few LGS in their area even though an LGS can't match the big box and online store prices.

rellascout nailed it. You don't need a large brick and mortar store with tons of overhead costs to run a gun business. That's what you had to do 30 years ago, and the old timers running gun stores now haven't quite figured out that they need to change. A FFL is just a guy with a license. Take away the storefront, the large inventory of guns, hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of holsters and accessories, and underneath it is just a guy who is licensed to do transfers. And the smart ones are figuring out that's all they really need. People are getting the holsters, accessories and even guns online. Just like Blockbuster video, once a consumer base moves to getting the product online, those who sold it at a physical store lose. Nobody buys DVDs at the video store anymore. And gun owners are buying thier holsters and magazines online more and more. The smart FFL knows to trim down and stick to the stuff consumers need him for: transferring guns. Everything else is out of his league at this point.

 

[dajowi]

A friend of mine took his daughter to a LGS to look for a couple of spare magazine for her Glock pistol. She spied a used holster in his "holster barrel." and wanted to purchase it. He wouldn't take off a lousy $5.00 off the purchase price. So she skipped buying it. I think this guy looses a lot of money by being so hard nosed. Unfortunately I've seen a lot of gun shops and gun show vendors loose money by being this way.