Is this safe?

[woad_yurt]

A few people above quoted me and, by their responses, it appears, at least to me, that my point was missed. This thread asks "is this safe?" In response, I mentioned pictures I've seen here that elicited no mention of safety, much any controversy. I should have asked "are those pictures of loaded revolvers (pointed at the camera) safe" because, without being there, we can't know. Someone said that the photos I mentioned may have been taken with a timer. No one but a witness can answer with certainty about a "may have." These guys may have had loaded or unloaded weapons, may or may not have been drunk or high, etc, etc, etc. Actually, the title of this thread should've been "does this look safe?" Then I would've said "of course not." Was it actually safe? I don't know as I was elsewhere when they shot those pictures. If anyone's familiar with Rene Descartes, then you'll know what I mean when I say I'm 95% (not 100%!) in agreement with his definition of "to know." I can't say something is unless I know it actually is. Thank you for letting me wax philosophic. Now, back to watching the TV with my dog.

 

[The Canuck]

First off, I am a Range Officer part-time.

I work with guns at least twelve hours a week (not just wearing them, but handling them), plus my own practice and training time. I am around firearms being handled by people who have skill and knowledge levels running from bumpkiss to expert.

I always start the briefing with the following... (while pointing at the Big Four by Col. Cooper) these are the big four, they are written in bigger letters than all the others because they are the most important if you follow these rules, I gaurantee that we will not hurt anybody with these guns.

1). Always treat the firearm as if it were loaded.
2). Never cover anything with with the muzzle that you do not wish to destroy.
3). Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
4). Alaway be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

The Colonel knew it, I know it, you know it.

If these kids did anything like what is shown in those pics, I would kick them off the range that instant. Even when I know a firearm is empty (mine or otherwise), I treat it as loaded. When I clean a firearm I still maintain the big four as best I can until it is not a firearm (dissassembled).

Really, how many You-Tube moments do we need to see where those famous last words are said... "don't worry, it ain't loaded"!

 

[XD Fan]

Horseplay with guns=unsafe

 

[SSN Vet]

they are both unsafe and stupid fools!!

it's about attitude and respect....

firearms are not toys for playing silly games and showing off....

and these guys are certainly not "boys" in the sense that they're not old enough to be responsible for their actions....

because they do not respect their guns...they are a hazard to themselves and others...

if I was their father, they would either learn quick, forfeit their guns or get out of the house...

if they were members of my crew, I'd write them up and take them to mast and let them see how far their whiny excuses get them with the "old man".

chances are very high that these fools will cause a firearms related accident some day.

 

[GBExpat]

IMO, since the firearms are unloaded, their camera antics are "safe" ... not intelligent/respectful/etc, but "safe".

 

[SamTuckerMTNMAN]

for me

this is unsafe

but I am not going to answer that they are unsafe.....

if it were my house, my range, my weapons, my students, my children, my friends, I would at best chastise them at worst have some severe reprimand. However, I also want to avoid the lure of deeming them 'unfit' through the vocabulary of 'unsafe' due to horsing around. They should be talked to, but in the grand course of dangerous events in our country these are just some good ole boys who love their toys. Had the deer head been a person I would be more angry just because of the callousness of conscience it would represent, as it is it is distasteful for an outdoorsman who loves nature even, no especially , as a hunter.


USELESS, yes, UNWISE definitely, unsafe, perhaps, but am I going to regulate that it is wrong therefore illegal to hold a gun in front of you aiming up.....am I going to support a law that you can't hold more than one or two or three weapons at a time because it is 'unsafe',
nope.

Therefore I'll stick with the above terms but not unsafe. Unsafe for whom?

Good question.

st

 

[arthurcw]

for those that put "other":

A thing is either "safe" or "unsafe". PERIOD. …(redacted)… Not KNOWING that to be true, it is unsafe. PERIOD.

THE SUBJECTS OF THE PICTURE not knowing if it's safe is UNSAFE. ME not knowing if it's safe makes it OTHER. You cannot assume facts not in evidence. Only a parent can do that and I am not their parent. Therefore, it's OTHER.

To be fair, the OP is asking two related but different questions:

1)

The debate is over whether the actions depicted are safe.
And

2)

The real question at hand is whether it is safe to break the rules with a gun you personally verified to be unloaded.

This could lead some to answer only #2, which has a Yes or No answer. And that answer would be “Yes.” You have to in many cases for simple maintenance and to stage a picture.

Once you add #1 into the mix (and take his question in context), since #2 is “yes” and #1 has many questions left unanswered, then “OTHER” is a valid option. And in MY opinion, the ONLY answer based on the facts at hand.

If you wish to personalized it (be their parent/guardian/nanny) and assume facts not in evidence, be my guest. But I cannot convict solely on these pictures. Do the pics make me disposed to give weight to other evidence that they were unsafe? Yep. But the pics do not, in and of themselves, constitute enough proof of negligence. If staged pictures did, Oleg would be fist in the Gulag.

Staged pictures CAN be safe. So it’s OTHER until credible witness tells me, “Yep, they swept the place for ammo and quadruple checked all the guns before and after each shot,” or, “Oh hell, they just went in and grabbed the guns and started taking pictures.”

…and several other people on the other website, say that the actions depicted are safe because the boys are familiar with firearms and ensured they were unloaded.

Who are these people? Was it a credible person? Did they see them? No clue. This does not sway me one way or the other.

If you are their parent, feel free to tan their hides for all the reasons discussed. Tell your kids, “Do this and I will personally make you wish for a swift and merciful death!” But since I have no direct authority over them, can not prove negligence, nor are their actions, in and of themselves, illegal/gravely immoral… they get “OTHER”. This is the text equivalent of the Hairy Eyeball.

 

[Franco2shoot]

Safe when talking weapons, is a relative term..
My "No" vote is based on the principle that I would not let my sons play with plastic replicas in the depicted manner. The rationale is that I always want my sons treating weapons with respect so that their behavior is re-enforced positively for those times when "Dad" is not around, and they have the real thing.
KKKKFL

 

[macFarlaine]

Reasoned and responsible reply.Let me look at it from another view point,which is off topic and will encourage negative comments.
If these photo's were believed to originate from the Uk,all goverment resources would be put into finding these silly little boys.They would be identified by the anti gun lobby reported to the police and they would face sevaral armed response units kicking down their doors,and arresting them,if holding the firearms maybe shooting them.
I am not saying this is the way it should be,but messing with firearms for whatever reason is stupid to say the least.I am also fed up with "you tube" a great tool for all that is wrong with the world today, IMO of course..

 

[Frandy]

How about this WW II photo?

I voted "not safe" because I prefer to think of firearms as a serious matter, period. Yes, these guns might have been checked, double checked, triple checked, and are not loaded, but the image shows a frivolous approach to gun handling that I think should only be excused when the extremely immature involved are young children who have yet to understand the importance of safe gun handling.

This said, check out this photo of a relative of mine in WW II. Fortunately, he is the fellow on the far left with the Colt on his hip. So, how about those two with the .45 and the knife. Could be that the .45 was indeed loaded.

 

[jh9x18ky]

Safe ? If you are 100% sure ( checked and re-checked ) that the guns are unloaded..... Probably
Bad Taste? Yes, definately
Bad habit to teach kids ? Showing off and acting "Rambo"? Yes

I was taught to treat every firearm as if it were loaded all the time, and to never point a weapon at anything you did not intend to shoot... no exceptions. Have I ever broke the above rules.... Yes, probably. Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[stevereno1]

They obviously lived to post the idiotic photos, so that is good. They are showing no respect for the weapons that they have, and I hope that they grow up and stop promoting dangerous gun handling.

 

[stevereno1]

They really don't even have any "cool" guns! some old crossbow, and daddy's hunting rifles. At least get some glocks, a kimber 1911, and an ak, or a ar-15, or both. I'm very dissapointed in these young men. Where's the riot shotgun! damn dissapointing.

 

[Blakenzy]

I would have to say that it's not safe.....regardless of the four rules, personal experience or firearm condition (loaded or not).

The way I see it, they were making a joke using firearms as props, treating them in a rather ridiculous manner. It may not have been dangerous at the exact moment of the photos (granted the were truly unloaded), HOWEVER I feel that the general attitude displayed is one of carelessness which may lead to very dangerous bad habits.

Playing with firearms in the way displayed is something that I would teach others to avoid.

 

[ADKWOODSMAN]

never!!!!!!!!

 

[f4t9r]

everything looks ok except the boys with the guns pointed at the deer should take the finger off the trigger so I would say unsafe.

 

[Geno]

Firearms are neither toys nor props. They are tools that should be properly deployed and employed. JMHO.

Doc2005

 

[KBintheSLC]

So they verified that the guns were safe. OK. The part I don't understand is what brand of dumb asses take pictures of themselves with a bunch of guns and post them all over the internet? Posers. Yes. What are they trying to prove?

If your house gets robbed and your guns get stolen as a result, don't complain. You asked for it.

 

[Troutman]

Is this safe?

 

[SEMO Shooter]

Safe or unsafe is not relevant. This is just being STUPID!!!!!

 

[U-235]

Definitely Unsafe

Many have shot themselves or others with a gun they "knew" was unloaded

U-235

 

[HuntAndFish]

They are making a habit of poor gunhandling when they think the gun is unloaded. Unsafe. Not today, probably not tomorrow. But someday they may regret it.

 

[fast eddie]

The man stipulated that they broke the four rules and so why all the beating him over the head with the four rules? He also said he personally verified all the guns were unloaded so if that's true how is it unsafe? Bad example, ok; fosters bad habits, ok again. I find it amusing to see all the hair standing on end at the sight of these photos. I also find a little disturbing the comments that only a "pro" photographer is smart enough, trained enough etc. to safely violate the four rules. This smacks of typical elitist attitude that the average joe is too stupid to take ownership of his own safety.

 

[macadore]

“1). Always treat the firearm as if it were loaded.
2). Never cover anything with with the muzzle that you do not wish to destroy.”

These two rules, if followed to their logical extremes, are unrealistic. This would mean you could never put your firearms in your safe, in your car, or even lay them down. At some point we all have to treat the firearms as if they are unloaded and point them at things we do not want to destroy.

Having said that, I have been dogmatic about teaching my children that firearms were not toys, and they were to leave if they were ever around people treating them as such. I do not worry about my children, but I worry about other people.

 

[cpttango30]

Safe well maybe. Smart definitely not. I think we are looking at the bottom 1% of the gene pool.