Isn’t that cheating?

[E357]

Oh! I'm not questioning the ability of the top game shooters - or any shooters for that matter - I just don't find the games much different than regular Target Practice. People behave and shoot very differently in combat. I DO like watching when the top shooters use real stock autos and revolvers. But even the "factory" shooters gun's are not the same guns that you or I can just walk in and buy.

The various Force on Force type exercises are much realistic and even more so when you put down $20 or $100 side bets and have precise scoring. Then NOBODY stands up in a weaver stance. The outcome of most combat is part skill, luck and lots of firepower.

I think I'm ranting because an IDPA match safety officer removed me from a match because I had my pinky finger inside the trigger guard of my revolver. The fact that the cylinder was not in the gun at the time made little difference to him. He said at the top of his voice about six times - "no fingers in the trigger guard!"

Elliot

 

[OF]

It seems to me that alot of the friction and complaining about these sports (and I've shot a total of one IPSC and one IDPA match at this point so I have a fairly fresh perspective) is generated by people comparing them to combat training and being disappointed. Either wishing the game was more like training, or wishing it wasn't and people would leave them alone and let them shoot the game they want to shoot.

Welcome to planet earth.

As far as I can see IPSC and IDPA are no more combat training than the Olympic javelin throw is African tribal warfare training.

You can't change that. It's, like was said above, human nature. Training is training and games are games. What you get out of the training is up to you and you alone, what you get out of the game is up to you and you alone. What is the major hangup about 'combat training'? If you want to shoot IDPA to polish your toolbox skills, then shoot your carry rig. The minute you start complaining about being beat on the scoreboard by the guy with the IDPA-only rig who spins to his gun side you just blew it. If you're there to polish your skills, what do you care what the other guy's score is?

If you are there to practice skills, ignore the clock and the scores. But the clock and the scores are there for people who want to play the game with clocks and scores competing against the other guy. You don't compete against the other guy by voluntarily foregoing advantages for yourself that the other guy may very well take. That's competition. In competiton you play to win. That's why they call it competition. When you aren't playing to win, they call it practice...stick a teacher in there and it's 'training'.

What the problem is with this I cannot for the life of me understand.

- Gabe

PS: Welcome to THR Matt! Great book by the way.

 

[mattburkett.com]

Gabe,
Thanks for the welcome! Great post BTW.

Here is the funny thing about this whole thread. Peoples egos. Some wannabe's that think their tactical get beat by someone just shooting the game and then they complain that the guy didn't do it with real gear! The problem isn't the guy playing the game and having fun. Its the people that suck at shooting in the first place and can't admit it and don't want to do anything about it. They are the ones that bitch and complain.

Just like every other sport, people that train, practice, and work at it, WIN no matter what the gun or gear is. I can do a .70 draw from a $20 Uncle Mikes holster with a stock glock at 10 yards. Does that mean its fun? No, shooting with that equipment sucks but I can do it.

I have worked with all sorts of mil, LE, and civ's around the world. Guess what? Fast shooting is fast shooting! When you learn how to hit the other guy, the rest is a lot easier. Most people that are allegedly "tactical" and talk about "what happens in real life" are full of it, have never had a gunfight, suck at shooting and can't even hit a target under stress or just standing there! If they would use the sports as a training aid (to learn how to shoot, move, shoot on the move, and handle stress) and then apply whatever tactics they are important for their real life situation, they will do exceedingly well when the SHTF.

The people that can, DO. The people that can't, COMPLAIN.

Wow, I kinda feel like Dennis Miller on a rant right now.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

eeh.


I'm mostly down on "untactical" stage design.

how many times are you going to need to shoot a 2X4 in half to save your life? (actual 3gun match stage), or transition from a fully working rifle to a fully working pistol and back multiple times, or mow down 30 targets with naught but a pistol?

 

[Correia]

Matt, couldn't agree more. I started a thread over in general discussion a few months ago about why don't shooters compete. It was about 5 pages long if I recall correctly. The biggest excuse was always something about how it wasn't realistic or "tactical" enough.

Got news for them, I was watching Discovery channel Sunday morning. They were showing Navy SEALs firearms training. Guess what they were doing? Running from improvised position, to improvised position, and shooting a 200 yard steel target. With an instructor with (gasp!) a PACT timer right behind them. My gosh that looks a lot like a 3 gun stage to me!

Andy, realism in stage design is fun. For a couple of stages. Then it gets dull. Seriously. Next year I'm the match director for our local 3 gun. That means I need to design about 50 stages. Sure, I could keep them all totally realistic, but you know what, shooting the one bad guy at 7 yards over and over again is going to get boring.

Take shotgun stages for example. If every shotgun stage consisted of 1-3 bad guys. 1-5 total rounds fired, I'm not going to have anybody come back to the next match. You have to balance realism with fun. The shooters are my customers, and my job is to satisfy my customers.

I know you are a big proponent of the WC3gun, I love it myself, but out of your stages last year there are several that could be described as unrealistic. Doesn't mean that they weren't super challenging and fun though.

And that is what it is all about. Fun. But the more fun you have, and the more work you put in, the better shooter you are going to become. Even when it is for real, the guy who shoots competitively and loves it is going to be a better shooter.

 

[mattburkett.com]

Correia,

Yes, I know how they train.

Andrew posted:

I'm mostly down on "untactical" stage design.

how many times are you going to need to shoot a 2X4 in half to save your life? (actual 3gun match stage), or transition from a fully working rifle to a fully working pistol and back multiple times, or mow down 30 targets with naught but a pistol?

Well, I don't know about the 2x4 thing. Haven't seen that myself. A match is a test of skills. Transition drills are good things to work on tactically. So what if you do multiples in a stage, you do multiples in tactical training to get good at them right? As for the mowing down 30 targets, did you ever see Black Hawk Down? BTW there were transitions too!

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

I realize that transitioning to pistol is a good skill to have, but I can't think of a situation where i'd sling my fully working rifle and use my pistol, unless it was frawling into a tunnel or something, then holster my pistol and use the rifle again, then sling my rifle and draw my pistol again. Basically, what i'm saying is that IDPA and the tactical rifle matches that some people around here put on and certain 3-gun matches aren't as "goofy" as some other forms of competition.


Larry: which stages are you referring to?

 

[Correia]

Andy,

FBI walk. You would never fire into a huge crowd of innocents with multiple badguys in real life.

The one with all of the 200 yard targets, hit the target, bang the gong, hit the target. That was just a drill. As was the skirmish line walk.

Now those were very fun stages. They were challenging and they were a good test of skills. Good practice/training and fun stages are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Steve Smith]

You guys should have a stage where you run AWAY from the targets with your pistol over your shoulder pointing toward the targets. You fire as you run away and scream like a little girl. Any hits on the targets and you win.

You could call it the Steve Smith stage.

 

[TrapperReady]

Steve - That's a good one. I'm sure there are many others that could be more "real-life".

Perhaps a convenience-store stage, where you play Apu. You have to empty your pistol at two targets (one at contact distance, the other 5 feet away) as you dive to the floor behind the counter. You get extra points (from company management) if you don't hit the cash register or the Slushie machine.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

FBI walk. You would never fire into a huge crowd of innocents with multiple badguys in real life.

Well, I would If it were necessary to save my life.

The one with all of the 200 yard targets, hit the target, bang the gong, hit the target. That was just a drill. As was the skirmish line walk.

drills that reenforce skills you need to save your life aren't untactical. you'll notice that the RO's make everyone seek cover, and generally behave in a way that won't get them killed on the street.

I hate matches where 1. the ro's don't say "take cover!" or "woa, you've overshot the shoot area!" and instead just give penalties without saying anything. 2. matches where the stage design is counter to my training.


Hell, i'd even shoot IPSC if i could find a club that had decent stage design.

 

[OF]

Matt said:

If they would use the sports as a training aid (to learn how to shoot, move, shoot on the move, and handle stress) and then apply whatever tactics they are important for their real life situation, they will do exceedingly well when the SHTF.

I think this is a major point. Drawing your gun from concealment is a toolbox skill. Reloading your gun is a toolbox skill. Shooting weak hand around a barricade is a toolbox skill. These skills are universally adaptable and can be plugged into any situation as needed. Add the ability to think fast and problem solve under stress and you have the start of a good tactical foundation.

- Gabe

PS: My wife is going to buy me your 4 DVD set for our wedding anniversary, Matt. Some guys want ties...

 

[Jeeper]

Gabe

You will love the videos. They are really well done. #4 has a bunch of cool shootin on it also.

 

[faustulus]

I don't really care if the stage design reflects real life or an alien attack. Just give me some cardboard and pump up the rounds. I play to have fun. I work to get better at handling my gun and hitting what I aim at, but I don't get too caught up in the 'tacticalness' of the whole affair. I let the tacticibillies (no offense skunk) worry about how it would work 'in real life.'

 

[OF]

You will love the videos.

I'm way psyched. I've only just started practical shooting in the last couple months and I feel like a crack addict looking for his next fix.

If I don't get to a match soon I'm going to start knocking over liquor stores and selling the gold out of my teeth.

- Gabe

 

[mattburkett.com]

"You could call it the Steve Smith stage."
Okay, that one almost had me puking! hehehehe

BTW I think tacticibillies is way to much of a long word for the description of such characters. Maybe we should have a new name game thread.
Personal favorites include:
tactibillies
TMF's = tactical moth(umm well you can figure the rest out.)
TMB's = tactical master bate(umm you get to figure this one out too!)

Then of course my all time favorite:
Wannabes - which can be seen running in droves at gunshows! Fascinating viewing!
But THEN we have the acryonym GSG equalling Gun Show Geek.

Gabe, we have a fix ready for ya!!


Okay, back to the thread. Shooting is shooting. The more you do the better you can be if you approach it right. Keep an open mind and analyze everything. Keep whats useful for you and discard what isn't. If your not open to new information you have stopped learning and most likely you suck. hehehe sorry for that one!

BTW if anyone here ever has any shooting issues they want to chat about, give me a call sometime. 480-949-1553

Take care,

 

[jptsr1]

"You guys should have a stage where you run AWAY from the targets with your pistol over your shoulder pointing toward the targets. You fire as you run away and scream like a little girl. Any hits on the targets and you win.

You could call it the Steve Smith stage."
_____________________________________________

Now that’s funny!! A stage named after me wouldn’t even include any shots being fired. You would just cower behind a simulated bed with a shotgun and a pistol pointed toward a door while your wife hid behind you dialing 911 on a fake phone. Anyway, the IDPA ‘03 Commonwealth Cups are this weekend here in Charlottesville, so I guess I’ll finally be able to see the game for myself and be able to make my own decision on how to play.

J.

 

[mattburkett.com]

"I guess I’ll finally be able to see the game for myself and be able to make my own decision on how to play."

Thats the way it is supposed to be. Good luck and I hope you enjoy yourself!

 

[Glamdring]

What is the shortest range you shoot targets at in IDPA?

 

[Owen]

Glamdring...contact

 

[Sunray]

jptsr1, it's not even close to an accusation. It's a perfectly good and reasonable question. Shooting is fun. Shooting any of the shooting games is fun. Go have fun and don't worry about whether or not your kit is good enough. It's what you have. Go play with your high priced, big, kid, toy and enjoy doing so.
And Steve Smith is the name of the Canadian guy who is Red Green.