"It Takes A Thief" series and "guard dogs"

[Horsesense]

Back in the summer, a friend and I went knocking on some doors in the neighborhood to invite people to a little get together and when we got out of the car at one house (this is in the country and the houses are few and fare between) we heard a deep, loud bark that rattled the windows and we quickly discovered a huge mail GSD standing about halfway between our car and the house.

It was a thing of beauty; this 120 lb. or so (not fat) noble creature was the picture of confidence, as he calmly stated his job description. He made it plain that although we were in no danger at the moment, any further move towards the house would be considered as a violation of protocol and that he would take great offence if we continued. I turned to my buddy and said "he says that nobody's home right now and that we should come back later."

He was marked like the dog in the picture above and I would guess five or six years old. My GSD is almost all black with tan, if his hips are fine when my bitch is old enough; I may try to get her bread by him.

 

[Cosmoline]

The whole notion that all dog-human interaction involves pack politics has been way overblown. Cohen on the bed there does not treat other intact males in his "pack" the way he treats me. If challenged he will fight them to the death. He's never done that with me or any human male even if they give him stink eye. Dogs know the difference between dogs and people. I don't fill the role as alpha male, I fill the role as human master. For dogs this role goes back 10,000 years and is as much a part of their social makeup as the wolfish pack dynamics.

For example, when a wild-eyed man walks near him when we're hiking, he watches the man but does nothing aggressive. If a Rottweiler giving him "the eye" and muscling up to him, I have to physically hoist him up to keep a death match from ensuing. With bitches I also have to physcially intervene, but for different reasons. His reactions are completely different with dogs and people, thankfully.

 

[Balog]

I've been wondering about something for awhile now; in fact I've kinda talked to you about it before Cosmo.

Let's say I want to train the type of dog you describe; one that has the ferocity to defend territory while no one is home. I'd also want them to be competent working ie protection dogs.

How would I get started? Merely reading a few books and buying a pup seems totally inadequite, not least because most books seem geared toward avoiding the type of dog I'd want. Same problem with most training schools. I've thought about getting Shutzhunde, but that seems like the IPSC of dog training.

Any thoughts?

 

[Bigreno]

You are correct in stating that many people over estimate there dogs desire to defend the home. Don't assume that because you have a big dog that he will repell an intruder if you are not there.

I have gone so far as to test my dog by sending a friend to attampt entry into my home with me watching from outside, and believe me he has passed with flying colors.

In all fairness my dog is not an average house pet. He is a Von Evman bloodline Rottie that has undergone significant bite work and confidence drills. I have the utmost confidence in his abilities.

...and I am always looking for an oppertunity to show him off.

 

[MikeIsaj]

Nice puppy!

 

[english kanigit]

What about a high percent Wolf Hybrid?

I really liked that idea and I do even more so after reading their site.
After showing it to somebody else though...

Me: Pretty nifty idea.
Her: No, its a bad idea. No matter how you cut it that's still a wild animal and it's dangerous.

Seems to me that if you raise it right as a pup you shouldn't have any problems. Any thoughts guys?

 

[itgoesboom]

I really liked that idea and I do even more so after reading their site.
After showing it to somebody else though...

Me: Pretty nifty idea.
Her: No, its a bad idea. No matter how you cut it that's still a wild animal and it's dangerous.

Seems to me that if you raise it right as a pup you shouldn't have any problems. Any thoughts guys?

I think it can go both ways. I have known two wolf hybrids. One Wolf/Malamute, and one Wolf/GSD. The Wolf/GSD is currently my neighbor's dog, so I know her very, very well.

The Wolf/Malamute could be let off leash within a hardware store where I worked, and would greet every single person in the store, and was the nicest, smartest dog I ever met. Very approachable.

The other one, the Wolf/GSD is very different. She is still very sweet, but she is not approachable. Other than her owner, I am the only male that she will approach and let pet her, and I am still cautious about how and when I do that. She usually hides behind my neighbors if they are talking to someone on the street.

I was the only person who they trust to watch the hybrid when they were gone for a weekend, and I must say she was a handful. Without her owner there, even though she knew me, I had to earn her trust the entire time. I almost got my hand removed for trying put a leash on her while she was eating a bone I had just given her. After a few days she got used to me enough that she was excited whenever I came to see her, but part of that is that she loves to play with my GSD mix.

While they are beautiful animals, and have some great traits, the Wolf part is still there, and their behavior is different than most dogs, so you have to be careful.

I.G.B.

 

[Cosmoline]

Let's say I want to train the type of dog you describe; one that has the ferocity to defend territory while no one is home. I'd also want them to be competent working ie protection dogs.

How would I get started? Merely reading a few books and buying a pup seems totally inadequite, not least because most books seem geared toward avoiding the type of dog I'd want. Same problem with most training schools. I've thought about getting Shutzhunde, but that seems like the IPSC of dog training.

I'm not at all convinced that schutzhund is a meaningful way to train a guard dog anymore. It's degenerated into a points competition where the dogs learn a routine but don't really know its significance. It's so formalized at this point that I've seen dogs with very high scores and schutzhund III completely fail to deal with real life intruders. If it's not on the formal field they are used to, it means nothing to them. Coupled with this, the judging is deeply corrupt and they're making the competition more and more of a game all the time. Last I heard they're dropping the courage test because too many dogs were bolting

In the old days back in Germany, schutzhund was THE TEST that allowed GSD's to breed. It was not primarily a points competition, but more of a pass/fail test designed to weed out the dogs that couldn't cut the mustard. It included wall climbing and object guarding. Most of the GSD's in the US these days are far too big to cope with the wall climb, and of course most have no interest in guarding objects.

As far as where to go to find a *true* guard dog, I know of some breeders who have lines that still seem to produce them, but they're not for everybody. I can send you some more suggestions in PM

 

[444]

Just a few random thoughts from a non-professional dog person.
IMO, you can't have your cake and eat it too. People talk about wanting a dog that is aggressive, territorial, and bold. But at the same time, want a dog that will play with the neighborhood children and not bother the people that you don't think should be bothered like the mailman or the guy reading the electric meter. I am not sure this is possible, although again, I have limited experience with dogs although I have owned dogs and have been minimally involved in Shutzhund. A dog, can be very much like a weapon. You wouldn't take a handgun and let the neighborhood children play with it. You wouldn't walk around the mall and let anyone that felt like it come up and handle your carry piece. You wouldn't leave a gun out where anyone that wants to can just walk up and touch it. IMO, this is the same with a dog. If you want a dog that you can let loose in the neighborhood without worry, I seriously doubt he is going to protect your home when you are not there.
My last dog was a dog that would protect your property when you weren't there. But, you didn't just walk up to this dog and start playing with him. I could, but not you. When people came to my house, I put him in another room. It wasn't like he was going to flip out and mall them for no reason, but I didn't want anything to happen. For example, if they decided they were just going to walk over and start pawing at him, they would have been bitten. To me, this is no different than some stranger walking up to me in public and start pawing at me, I am going to knock them out. I never let him run loose. I never let people touch him. But, I certainly could take him anywhere I wanted on a leash including inside public buildings and had no problem, but I had to constantly be aware of who was trying to come near him.
To me, he was the best friend I will ever have. But it was MY dog, not a public dog for anyone and everyone to treat as they saw fit. He didn't go for that. To him, he was second in command of the universe. You don't just walk up to royalty and lay your hands on them.

 

[Byron Quick]

Let's say I want to train the type of dog you describe; one that has the ferocity to defend territory while no one is home. I'd also want them to be competent working ie protection dogs.

Good points from Cosmoline and 444. But even lines that have consistently produced working guard dogs also produce wimps. Courage, territoriality, and agressiveness are probably impossible to train into a dog.


I have gone up to areas using 'guard dogs' on several occasions with an old tennis ball. Dogs are raising a ruckus on the other side of the fence. I throw the ball over the fence. Most of the dogs run after the ball, bring it back to me, and paw it under the gate so I'll play some more. Many 'guard' dogs are starved for human companionship and anyone who will give them what they want becomes a fast friend. Don't make this mistake with a dog that you want to protect you and yours. Same thing with poison proofing. It's fairly easy to train a dog so it will only eat out of its own bowl. Then secure the bowl between feedings. Be sure to train the dog so that several known people can feed it but no others.
I like female dogs myself. I've found them to be less stubborn (mostly), more intelligent on average, and they can't be decoyed with bitches in heat. It's a well trained male dog that can't be decoyed in this manner. Why bother? Get a female. Another tactic I've seen used is to have free roaming guard dogs in a facility and a ferocious barking ankle biter in a hidden pen. Rationale: thieves attempt to decoy the guard dogs but still have this dog raising hell that won't come to the decoy.

Owning this type of dog is not a plug and play activity. If you don't have the time, motivation, and money to do it right then it's better not to do it at all. With a bit of surveillance, forethought, and effort I can neutralize most dogs. On the other hand, I have knowledge and experience that most criminals don't possess.

All crime deterrents are best viewed as filters. The better the deterrent-the more skilled or determined the man who comes through. Intelligence of the criminal then comes into play. The goal is to make the possible rewards not worth the effort.

The single best deterrent that I've found is to be very careful in choosing who visits your house. After analyzing a burglary of my home about thirty years ago, I ceased to entertain casual acquaintances at my dwelling. That's why banquet rooms at restaurants were built.

Bigreno, that's a beautiful Rottweiler.

 

[Cosmoline]

Many 'guard' dogs are starved for human companionship and anyone who will give them what they want becomes a fast friend.

Excellent point. I did the same thing with a big mean looking rottweiler that was left to guard an industrial yard near my place. He was really just lonely, and esp. after I brought over a female GSD who was visiting at the time he decided I was his favorite happy fun friend.

Loyalty and affection are what feed a desire to protect. Dogs are amazingly good judges about who needs protecting, as well. A dog that would rarely act defensive if I was talking to a stranger would act very defensive if my SO, a woman, was talking to a stranger.

Dogs can also pick up on who is the real boss. Across the board when I was at the kennel, the dogs would decide I was Mr. Happy Fun and seldom took me very seriously.

 

[444]

"With a bit of surveillance, forethought, and effort I can neutralize most dogs. On the other hand, I have knowledge and experience that most criminals don't possess."

Any system can be defeated. With enough thought, planning, resources, time, etc, someone can defeat anything.
However, I think I had the dog thing pretty much wired against anyone except the most professional and dedicated hombre. One big thing I had going for me was that my dog stayed in the house when I was not there. So, in order to try anything on my dog, you had to be inside his house to do it. Another big plus is that my dog didn't bark. I even taught him to speak and he would go through all the motions of barking, but didn't make any noise. So, someone who broke into my home would get their first indication that I had a dog when they were being torn apart.