carpettbaggerr
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- Nov 13, 2003
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Don't forget the Great Dane. Course they were bred more for offense. Saw a harlequin Dane on a porch in a small suburban house once -- made me a little nervous 'til his 2 packmates came out.
What do you think about a Presa Canario for a home defense dog?
- Thread starter TheOtherOne
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There are dogs I would like to have and ones I would have reservations about. The only breed I just won't have is the Chow. There are good Chows and bad ones, but most of the ones I've had contact with were pretty unpredictable and prone to acting very aggressively to anyone who isn't their immediate pack. My then year old niece nearly got savaged by two as my sister was delivering a cake to their owner.
Skipper
Member
I love the big guard breeds, but the EXTREME liability with them is just not worth it. I had a German Wirehair that was a manstopper,but in court he would have been just another bird dog.
Regards,
SKIP
Regards,
SKIP
carpettbaggerr said:Don't forget the Great Dane. Course they were bred more for offense. Saw a harlequin Dane on a porch in a small suburban house once -- made me a little nervous 'til his 2 packmates came out.
Danes were bred out of Mastiff lines. Mastiffs can't really be described with any authority as having been bred for a specific task due to the age of the breed. There are bas-reliefs of Mastiff style dogs (leaner and rangier than the modern breeds) hunting lions in Persian ruins. Hannibal brought mastiff type dogs with him when he crossed the alps, the most likely way they were brought to Europe.
Danes were originally bred as coarsers, hunting dogs to chase and catch. I recall reading they were used to hunt deer and boar all over northern Europe. but like Mastiffs, they were also used as war dogs, but that wasn't their single purpose.
little story for EVERYONE
I train security dogs, placin em into peoples homes. the best early warning system are geese..... no one can creep up on em. there will be snipers out there who will say that theyd shoot em from a half mile away before movin in but trust me - as soon as the 1st gets hit the 2nd will let you know. to answer the gun shy question it is inherant, try puttin ya pups food bowl near to the tv while an old war or western film is on, its a good indicator. hounds and gun dog breeds are usually the best at takin to bangs. oh, a dog will fight with you, while a bitch will fight to protect you - is a good general rule. long legged staffordshire bull terriers are my personal choice. excellent with kids, brave, loyal and not prone to bark without cause, the story....... asked to find and train a family dog with an eye to lookin after his young daughter, i got a staffy bitch for my client. i help em train her. BIG TIPS..... the little girl feeds her and 1st thing in the morn and last thing at night she takes her for a walk and a poop - the dog NEEDSthis little girl to function, catch me ? 2ish years later the client rings to say the dog is aggresive to a man who visits the house, for no reason - i told the client to be wary of the man, not the dog. 6 months later i got a call from the client sayin the "MAN" had been tryin to sexually abuse his daughter. he thanked me. i told him the dog deserved all the credit. a dog is what you make it regardless of breed, basically - guard dogs will bark and hounds will hunt. you get back what put in. my own little girl is wakin up now and i can hear her staffy bodyguard tending her. dog spelt backwards is god. all the best.
I train security dogs, placin em into peoples homes. the best early warning system are geese..... no one can creep up on em. there will be snipers out there who will say that theyd shoot em from a half mile away before movin in but trust me - as soon as the 1st gets hit the 2nd will let you know. to answer the gun shy question it is inherant, try puttin ya pups food bowl near to the tv while an old war or western film is on, its a good indicator. hounds and gun dog breeds are usually the best at takin to bangs. oh, a dog will fight with you, while a bitch will fight to protect you - is a good general rule. long legged staffordshire bull terriers are my personal choice. excellent with kids, brave, loyal and not prone to bark without cause, the story....... asked to find and train a family dog with an eye to lookin after his young daughter, i got a staffy bitch for my client. i help em train her. BIG TIPS..... the little girl feeds her and 1st thing in the morn and last thing at night she takes her for a walk and a poop - the dog NEEDSthis little girl to function, catch me ? 2ish years later the client rings to say the dog is aggresive to a man who visits the house, for no reason - i told the client to be wary of the man, not the dog. 6 months later i got a call from the client sayin the "MAN" had been tryin to sexually abuse his daughter. he thanked me. i told him the dog deserved all the credit. a dog is what you make it regardless of breed, basically - guard dogs will bark and hounds will hunt. you get back what put in. my own little girl is wakin up now and i can hear her staffy bodyguard tending her. dog spelt backwards is god. all the best.
Dags. Do you like Dags?
Try http://www.leerburg.com for protection dog forums. There is also www.molosserdogs.com for breed specific information and forums.
First question: Are you a "dog person"?
Second question: What breeds of dog have you had?
Third question: Have you had a molossid before?
My own personal opinion is that large Molossids while quite formidable are not for the avg person or family. I speak from experience. They are my favorite type of dog and I owned a gamebred American Pit Bulldog ("Pit Bull" to most); great dog, poor guard dog, outstanding canine athlete.
Fila Brasileros have a low threat threshold from what I've seen which is a disqualifying fault for me as the breed is too formidable to be so "sharp". I don't think Presa are like that.
The issue with the Bulldogs is getting them to let go once they've grabbed something/someone in earnest. My Pit Bull required a breaking stick which would be used to pry him off of another dog that happened to get too close. He was about 73 lbs. on the chain and if he were to be matched (something I'd never consider) he would probably have gone at 65 lbs or so. I could not imagine trying to pull off a 120 lb Bulldog breed.
A "better" solution would be a well-bred working strain German Shepherd or, if you're brave, a Belgian Malinois or Dutch Shepherd. Actually, all of these personal protection breeds are potentially dangerous if left to their own devices.
I don't advocate PPDs unless the HOUSEHOLD is PPD savvy and you'd better know dog psychology and Molossid psychology which is different in some areas (mainly by degree) again.
A good German Shepherd would be easier to train (based purely on breed characteristics, but there are many variables and exceptions - especially with high prey drive individuals)
You really don't need the high fighting drive and dominance of the working Malinois/Dutch Shepherd/German Shepherd if the dog will be a PPD. Thing is the prey drive and fight drive is greater in the Bulldog/Molossid breeds. And the Bulldog breeds are more powerful and tenacious.
Finally, a PPD breed is a firearm that can choose to squeeze his own trigger.
I'd suggest look elsewhere. Almost any 40 lb breed would attack someone who is attacking you. They are a first layer of defense and a loving companion first, obviously.
German Shepherds (make sure it has good hips) would probably make the best overall breed for most people for most circumstances. And I'd love to have a good one.
But just about any 50 lb dog breed will do if he possesses the right temperment AND proper training and socialization.
Whomever mentioned the Great Dane: Not. There are better breeds than the Bullmastiff as well. Working strain Rottweilers, Bouviers, Giant Schnauzers, Malinois and Dutch Shepherd quickly come to mind. And, of coure, working strain (primarily imports from E. Germany, W. Germany and Czech Republic) German Shepherds. But these aren't needed for what I think the majority of us need. Pick any of the herding breeds (minus the collie and Border collie) and you'll probably be just fine.
However, check out www.boardogs.com for some superb breedings that give credibility to what sight hounds and wolfhounds and boar hounds were ONCE like - a long time ago. If you're into working dog breeds and history be forewarned: it's addicting.
Try http://www.leerburg.com for protection dog forums. There is also www.molosserdogs.com for breed specific information and forums.
First question: Are you a "dog person"?
Second question: What breeds of dog have you had?
Third question: Have you had a molossid before?
My own personal opinion is that large Molossids while quite formidable are not for the avg person or family. I speak from experience. They are my favorite type of dog and I owned a gamebred American Pit Bulldog ("Pit Bull" to most); great dog, poor guard dog, outstanding canine athlete.
Fila Brasileros have a low threat threshold from what I've seen which is a disqualifying fault for me as the breed is too formidable to be so "sharp". I don't think Presa are like that.
The issue with the Bulldogs is getting them to let go once they've grabbed something/someone in earnest. My Pit Bull required a breaking stick which would be used to pry him off of another dog that happened to get too close. He was about 73 lbs. on the chain and if he were to be matched (something I'd never consider) he would probably have gone at 65 lbs or so. I could not imagine trying to pull off a 120 lb Bulldog breed.
A "better" solution would be a well-bred working strain German Shepherd or, if you're brave, a Belgian Malinois or Dutch Shepherd. Actually, all of these personal protection breeds are potentially dangerous if left to their own devices.
I don't advocate PPDs unless the HOUSEHOLD is PPD savvy and you'd better know dog psychology and Molossid psychology which is different in some areas (mainly by degree) again.
A good German Shepherd would be easier to train (based purely on breed characteristics, but there are many variables and exceptions - especially with high prey drive individuals)
You really don't need the high fighting drive and dominance of the working Malinois/Dutch Shepherd/German Shepherd if the dog will be a PPD. Thing is the prey drive and fight drive is greater in the Bulldog/Molossid breeds. And the Bulldog breeds are more powerful and tenacious.
Finally, a PPD breed is a firearm that can choose to squeeze his own trigger.
I'd suggest look elsewhere. Almost any 40 lb breed would attack someone who is attacking you. They are a first layer of defense and a loving companion first, obviously.
German Shepherds (make sure it has good hips) would probably make the best overall breed for most people for most circumstances. And I'd love to have a good one.
But just about any 50 lb dog breed will do if he possesses the right temperment AND proper training and socialization.
Whomever mentioned the Great Dane: Not. There are better breeds than the Bullmastiff as well. Working strain Rottweilers, Bouviers, Giant Schnauzers, Malinois and Dutch Shepherd quickly come to mind. And, of coure, working strain (primarily imports from E. Germany, W. Germany and Czech Republic) German Shepherds. But these aren't needed for what I think the majority of us need. Pick any of the herding breeds (minus the collie and Border collie) and you'll probably be just fine.
However, check out www.boardogs.com for some superb breedings that give credibility to what sight hounds and wolfhounds and boar hounds were ONCE like - a long time ago. If you're into working dog breeds and history be forewarned: it's addicting.
1 old 0311
member
A dog is NOT a defensive weapon. A dog is a early warning system. Don't confuse the two.
A quick note on dog insurance; State Farm insures any breed of dog on a "one bite" basis for homeowner's or renter insurance. Your policy covers one bite from your dog to the extent of the limtations of the policy. After that you have to get a special rider on your policy. They'll write the rider, but there's no guarantee what you'll be paying.
i spent some of my time in south africa and know a bit about ridgebacks and boerboels. both are excellent. the rr is more of a huntin dog that is clever and game but even these move outta the way for the boerboel - what i call a finishing dog, cos when one a these getts hold a ya you better hope the handler has trained it very well to realease and isnt to far away . my ppd is a 5 stone terrier cross who will release on command anytime. i beleve a "breakin stick" is a short cut - train the dog to release. any dog that cant do this (ive never met one) should be given to a laid back farm to lead the simple life not as a ppd. mold the puppy into what you want from the start. goin back to the ridgeback, it was used to hunt lions, not attack em. it would track em then hold em up for the hunter to shoot - very agile, quick and brave -not suicidle.
replying to 1 old 0311. you are mixin up guard dogs (dogs who bark and give warning ) with ppd's that will protect/defend you when they percive a threat. you also have attack/finishing dogs that are solely a weapon, point em and send em. out of all of these a ppd is by far the hardest to train.
.
I'm not really into aggressive animals in a domestic environment.
Ownership of these animals is usually borne out of the buyer's mental
insecurities, the dogs don't get what they need, and they really serve
little purpose. It often ends badly.
Many of these rare large aggressive breeds have long histories of
spontaneous and inexplicable violence and it sometimes ends in death.
There is very little to be gained over a well-trained and more common
breed, such as a German Shepherd.
I would whole-heartedly have to recommend against considering owning these
animals for any reason.
I'm not really into aggressive animals in a domestic environment.
Ownership of these animals is usually borne out of the buyer's mental
insecurities, the dogs don't get what they need, and they really serve
little purpose. It often ends badly.
Many of these rare large aggressive breeds have long histories of
spontaneous and inexplicable violence and it sometimes ends in death.
There is very little to be gained over a well-trained and more common
breed, such as a German Shepherd.
I would whole-heartedly have to recommend against considering owning these
animals for any reason.
Well now, a topic that I can sink my teeth into
Amen. I have had many, many dogs in my life, from all types of breeds, but once you have a good GSD, wou will never want anything else. A good GSD is smart, easy to train, very good and protective with children and family and friends, wary of strangers, responsive to commands, and loyal as the day is long. You cannot do better than a good GSD for an all around dog.
Amen. I have had many, many dogs in my life, from all types of breeds, but once you have a good GSD, wou will never want anything else. A good GSD is smart, easy to train, very good and protective with children and family and friends, wary of strangers, responsive to commands, and loyal as the day is long. You cannot do better than a good GSD for an all around dog.
03Shadowbob
Member
I love loyal, big, family-friendly dogs. I wouldn't get one that had a history of turning on family, owner or friends.
I am looking at the American Mastiff now as my lab is getting old (11). My lab is about 120lbs so 150-180 can't be much bigger. The difference with the American Mastiff is that they have all thetraits, disposition and markings of the bulls but do NOT slobber, which is big in my book.
I am looking at the American Mastiff now as my lab is getting old (11). My lab is about 120lbs so 150-180 can't be much bigger. The difference with the American Mastiff is that they have all thetraits, disposition and markings of the bulls but do NOT slobber, which is big in my book.
gotta reply to whited. a ppd is not an aggresive animal. just an animal who is taught to help when needed like any other workin dog. gettin stuck into a mugger is not aggresive - its protective. big difference. breed is barely 10% of a well trained dogs temprement. gsd's are good but not as brave or game as a terrier which gives the terrier the edge. gsd's are better guard dogs. oh, whited, if your unlucky enough to be mugged one day you'll be wishin ya best friend had stuck up for you.......
There are strains of GSD, Malinau and Dutch Shepherd that work a human just like a Pit Bull works over another dog. So I cannot so quickly agree. Where the differences lie is the ability to absorb punishment (not to mention dish it out) which, now that I think about it, IS, in fact, "gameness". Sorry!
But one does not need a dead game dog for a PPD and in the APBT a dead game dog typically shows no interest in humans at all. Of course, if one were to attack the owner it might go into action, but they are not uncommonly a bit man shy, for lack of better terminology.
American Bulldogs would be the best compromise between "dead game" (they are not) and protective (they most certainly are). But one would have to forego the Johnson strain as they are not "working dogs". The name of the strain escapes me now, but they are the predominant hog hunting strain and they normally weigh UNDER 90 lbs (male).
While I truly adore most of the "Bulldog/Mastiff" breeds I'd not want one for PPD. They are too large and ponderous for my lifestyle and they eat more than I do. For me the answer is:
Belgian Malinois
Dutch Shepherd
German Shepherd
or a cross of the GSD with any of the other two
Next would be:
Airedale Terrier
My Pit Bull was a family companion dog who'd bark if encouraged, but he would usually bark if he was at the front gate and you showed up. It wasn't an aggressive, challenging bark. It was more of an alarm for us to come and get the front door. The poodle was much, much better in this regard and therefore the better alarm dog.
Now the Pit Bulldog would grab you if you showed any aggressiveness towards me, however. I would take him on occasion to school (college) and he loved the attention given him by the women. I ran him on a treadmill and ran him on the road since I ran track in HS so he was very lean. I also had a tractor trailer tire at one of the neighborhood ball fields (which was NEVER used) so myself and another Pit Bull owner rigged the tire with chains such that we could attach leads to the dog's harnesses and let them drag the tire until they were exhausted. So he was a sight to see!
The only problem on campus was large football players (defensive & offensive linemen) he'd actually growl at them on their approach.
We also had an "incident" at LSU when he saw Mike the Tiger and immediately grabbed the fence trying to get at him. And Mike responded by dropping to his belly and snarling. If you've not been on the receiving end of a tiger snarl at close proximity you've not lived! It would make your hair stand on end.
I understand the mastiff breed are much more protective than an APBT and as much as I adore them and as much as they are lovable as pups I cannot say that I feel comfortable around them. There are several around the area that I USED to jog. The problem is can the owners control them? I don't know, but I doubt it as I've witnessed one person walking two dogs and no breaking stick, no pepper spray, no nothing. They COULD tear a human apart.
I was stopped by the police one evening when emergency technicians responded to an emergency a couple of doors down from my home and admired "Rocky". I let them pet him and several wanted a pup from him. They asked what was the short stick, thinking I'd hit him with it and I explained how you'd have to "break" him off as he'd not pay me any attention once he was fighting and they admired how a HS kid would be so "thoughtful". Well, I've not seen breaking sticks with the owners of Dogos, Presas, American Bulldogs and the like around here. It's just a matter of time.
But one does not need a dead game dog for a PPD and in the APBT a dead game dog typically shows no interest in humans at all. Of course, if one were to attack the owner it might go into action, but they are not uncommonly a bit man shy, for lack of better terminology.
American Bulldogs would be the best compromise between "dead game" (they are not) and protective (they most certainly are). But one would have to forego the Johnson strain as they are not "working dogs". The name of the strain escapes me now, but they are the predominant hog hunting strain and they normally weigh UNDER 90 lbs (male).
While I truly adore most of the "Bulldog/Mastiff" breeds I'd not want one for PPD. They are too large and ponderous for my lifestyle and they eat more than I do. For me the answer is:
Belgian Malinois
Dutch Shepherd
German Shepherd
or a cross of the GSD with any of the other two
Next would be:
Airedale Terrier
My Pit Bull was a family companion dog who'd bark if encouraged, but he would usually bark if he was at the front gate and you showed up. It wasn't an aggressive, challenging bark. It was more of an alarm for us to come and get the front door. The poodle was much, much better in this regard and therefore the better alarm dog.
Now the Pit Bulldog would grab you if you showed any aggressiveness towards me, however. I would take him on occasion to school (college) and he loved the attention given him by the women. I ran him on a treadmill and ran him on the road since I ran track in HS so he was very lean. I also had a tractor trailer tire at one of the neighborhood ball fields (which was NEVER used) so myself and another Pit Bull owner rigged the tire with chains such that we could attach leads to the dog's harnesses and let them drag the tire until they were exhausted. So he was a sight to see!
The only problem on campus was large football players (defensive & offensive linemen) he'd actually growl at them on their approach.
We also had an "incident" at LSU when he saw Mike the Tiger and immediately grabbed the fence trying to get at him. And Mike responded by dropping to his belly and snarling. If you've not been on the receiving end of a tiger snarl at close proximity you've not lived! It would make your hair stand on end.
I understand the mastiff breed are much more protective than an APBT and as much as I adore them and as much as they are lovable as pups I cannot say that I feel comfortable around them. There are several around the area that I USED to jog. The problem is can the owners control them? I don't know, but I doubt it as I've witnessed one person walking two dogs and no breaking stick, no pepper spray, no nothing. They COULD tear a human apart.
I was stopped by the police one evening when emergency technicians responded to an emergency a couple of doors down from my home and admired "Rocky". I let them pet him and several wanted a pup from him. They asked what was the short stick, thinking I'd hit him with it and I explained how you'd have to "break" him off as he'd not pay me any attention once he was fighting and they admired how a HS kid would be so "thoughtful". Well, I've not seen breaking sticks with the owners of Dogos, Presas, American Bulldogs and the like around here. It's just a matter of time.
P.S.
Everyone interested in this thread should go to:
www.boardogs.com
www.leerburg.com
www.molosserdogs.com
Be safe!
Everyone interested in this thread should go to:
www.boardogs.com
www.leerburg.com
www.molosserdogs.com
Be safe!
I am a big fan of American Bulldogs, but like most of the other working breeds, these guys require a lot of work. I have three, and they don't get along at all, even the female fights with the males. Animal aggression if a huge factor with these breeds. I second the fence requirement, I had to go to 8ft all around the yard because they can jump a 6ft fence pretty easily.
But...they are extremely loyal to my family. Come to my door and they are not happy. If I let you in, they change from guard dog to playful puppy. Very cool how they follow their master's lead with strangers.
But...they are extremely loyal to my family. Come to my door and they are not happy. If I let you in, they change from guard dog to playful puppy. Very cool how they follow their master's lead with strangers.
Dixie_Amazon
Member
If only there were more responsible Pit Bull owners like you Chui. To many people get them not knowing enough about the breed.
I'm not dog knowledgeable, but let me offer this. I have noticed that people who *are* dog people tend to anthropomorphize their animals. That means (no condescension intended) ascribing human qualities to things that are not human--like their dogs. They begin to believe their dogs have human-like feelings and human-like thought processes, like reason. They don't. They are animals. As well trained and acculturated as they may be, they can revert to their biological nature at times of stress, illness, fear, etc. If a breed is known to have a somewhat aggressive nature coupled with the physical prowess to inflict damage, be prepared to be responsible to ensure your dog will not harm innocents--or suffer the consequences. Just as you would caution someone to be responsible about keeping and handling a loaded firearm, take similar precautions with a dog. You may know the difference between a home invader and the UPS guy, your dog may not.
K
K
Cosmoline
Member
Part of the trick is making sure your home is set up so that the UPS guy can't come barging in. Good dogs, good locks and good fences all go together. An open door house with strange people coming and going at all hours is not going to be the best environment for a protection dog.
trueblue1776
Member
Presa Canarios are totally a dog fad since that lady in SF got eaten, don't buy the hype, a dog is a dog. Any big Molossor will do the same thing for less money. Be careful though it is not a small thing to own a dog that large and powerful. Find a breeder that has dogs with good hips (or old dogs of the line on premises) and GOOD temperaments. A well bred Molossor will be intuitive, and to me that is the major selling point.
My front door is unlocked, come on over, make sure the hospital has your blood type.
My front door is unlocked, come on over, make sure the hospital has your blood type.
Just another opinion here. I own German Shepherds. Not because of their protective nature but mostly for their sensitivity to their surroundings and their sense of what is normal and what isn't. Most of the time my dogs wouldn't allow a stranger within ten feet of my door. Other times, they don't get out of bed to see who is coming through the door.
What all this proves to me is: Dogs (for security) are not "on" 24-7. this is why I also have a security system and a CCP. If the dogs alert me to a problem I can deal with it. I think it's better to consider my dogs as just one part of the personal protection solution for my family. A family dog is great. I prefer dogs to alot of people I know but I don't trust them soley for protecting my loved ones.
Find a breed that suits your lifestyle first. When he understands what is expected of him through consistant obedience and training, chances are he will deliver when the time comes. Good luck!
What all this proves to me is: Dogs (for security) are not "on" 24-7. this is why I also have a security system and a CCP. If the dogs alert me to a problem I can deal with it. I think it's better to consider my dogs as just one part of the personal protection solution for my family. A family dog is great. I prefer dogs to alot of people I know but I don't trust them soley for protecting my loved ones.
Find a breed that suits your lifestyle first. When he understands what is expected of him through consistant obedience and training, chances are he will deliver when the time comes. Good luck!
The Ca. incident is not the only case of Presa Canarios behaving unpredictably. I know of a case in Fla. where the dog killed its owner. I can not say if it is in the bread, or if it is bad breading/training of certain blood lines. I would not trust them and therefore would not have them, period.
We have mastiff mixes, a bit over 100 lbs each. These dogs, particularly Neapolitans, were bread to protect royalty. They are very attached to their family, and are not trusting of strangers. If you look at breeders who bread "working" dogs as opposed to show dogs you will find that they are smaller (who needs a 275 lb dog that will have joint and health problems?) and healthier. Ours will sit down between my wife and a stranger and keep themselves between my better half and the one they do not know. No barking and snapping, just an impressive presents. It is in their genes to protect the family. They are also good indoor dogs who are low key most of the time. I did need to put Plexiglas over the living room windows because some passers by felt the need to come up to the windows to say hello to the dogs who were watching them walk past. The gray one did not take kindly to this close approach.
This is her checking me out as I lay on my new light weight backpacking pad, the Brindle one is trying to join me by worming her way from the top of the pad:
We have mastiff mixes, a bit over 100 lbs each. These dogs, particularly Neapolitans, were bread to protect royalty. They are very attached to their family, and are not trusting of strangers. If you look at breeders who bread "working" dogs as opposed to show dogs you will find that they are smaller (who needs a 275 lb dog that will have joint and health problems?) and healthier. Ours will sit down between my wife and a stranger and keep themselves between my better half and the one they do not know. No barking and snapping, just an impressive presents. It is in their genes to protect the family. They are also good indoor dogs who are low key most of the time. I did need to put Plexiglas over the living room windows because some passers by felt the need to come up to the windows to say hello to the dogs who were watching them walk past. The gray one did not take kindly to this close approach.
This is her checking me out as I lay on my new light weight backpacking pad, the Brindle one is trying to join me by worming her way from the top of the pad:
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