apbt's were culled if they showed any signs of aggresion towards people wayback, makin them unlikly to impress as guard/attack dogs, they rate 4th in my " last 4 legged animals i want to see chasin me list " (tiger 1st, lion 2nd, bear 3rd if ya wonderin) i dont agree AT ALL with attack dogs- thats what guns are for. aptb's are banned here in the uk ( dont get me started on that one ) but my choice is a long legged staff for ppd. there are better dogs for guardin - gsd, rotty, boerboel to name a few. attack dogs in my opioin are big bitin mualers that have been mistreated to make em turn on comannd - this is not in ANY dogs nature, hence the thrase "mans best friend " a puppy is like an empty vessel that you get to fill ( healh issues aside ) gsd's are excellent guards, but i have seen some be overpowered by people (good big ones ) and due to there supreme intelligence and human compliace they can " second guess " a situation when the terrier just acts. apbt's have similar intelligence to gsd's. both could be made into ppd's but a staffy is better prediposed.
What do you think about a Presa Canario for a home defense dog?
- Thread starter TheOtherOne
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predictable
I know a fair amount about this incident and, just like much human violence, the attack and killing of Diane Whipple was very predictable. The cause was, of course, almost solely humans rather than the dogs. These dogs were actually presa/mastiff mix. The dogs custodians, Knoller and Noel, were left wing defense lawyers* who were representing a client, who they adopted as their son. Client goes to prison and they take in his dogs. The client was trying to run a dog breeding business for fighting dogs.
So the dogs had already been encouraged to be aggressive when the client goes to prison. The dogs first went to a farm outside the city, owned by a woman. The dogs killed some farm stock including a sheep, and the woman kept them chained up, and she was clearly afraid of them. They were not corrected for killing, just chained. The humans were clearly afraid of them.
Anybody see where this is heading yet?
So the client convinces the hippie lawyers to take the dogs and they do - into a city apartment. The lawyers have no dog experience and certainly no alpha / mollosser experience. The dogs behaved in a dominant fashion towards the lawyers, who went along - giving affection but no structure or correction for aggression. I believe they tried some obedience type training, but these dogs were very far along the path in terms of aggression. The dogs dragged them around on leash. The reaction they got from humans all around them was fear.
The dogs had bitten a neighbor previously and the lawyers did not correct the dog for the behavior. They menaced other dogs. They had even bitten Whipple, the eventual victim, before the fatal attack. She was terrified that she would be attacked again.
The lawyers never did anything to correct the dogs for aggression, and never sought professional assistance, despite being urged to by a veterinarian who saw the dogs and wrote the lawyers a letter, calling the dogs "ticking time bombs."
The attack on Whipple was very predictable. In addition, I think breeding likely had little to do with the behavior of these dogs. They were made, not born. If they had been raised by strong, responsible owners with experience with strong dogs, they likely would have been perfectly fine.
*disclaimer: I am a conservative defense lawyer
I know a fair amount about this incident and, just like much human violence, the attack and killing of Diane Whipple was very predictable. The cause was, of course, almost solely humans rather than the dogs. These dogs were actually presa/mastiff mix. The dogs custodians, Knoller and Noel, were left wing defense lawyers* who were representing a client, who they adopted as their son. Client goes to prison and they take in his dogs. The client was trying to run a dog breeding business for fighting dogs.
So the dogs had already been encouraged to be aggressive when the client goes to prison. The dogs first went to a farm outside the city, owned by a woman. The dogs killed some farm stock including a sheep, and the woman kept them chained up, and she was clearly afraid of them. They were not corrected for killing, just chained. The humans were clearly afraid of them.
Anybody see where this is heading yet?
So the client convinces the hippie lawyers to take the dogs and they do - into a city apartment. The lawyers have no dog experience and certainly no alpha / mollosser experience. The dogs behaved in a dominant fashion towards the lawyers, who went along - giving affection but no structure or correction for aggression. I believe they tried some obedience type training, but these dogs were very far along the path in terms of aggression. The dogs dragged them around on leash. The reaction they got from humans all around them was fear.
The dogs had bitten a neighbor previously and the lawyers did not correct the dog for the behavior. They menaced other dogs. They had even bitten Whipple, the eventual victim, before the fatal attack. She was terrified that she would be attacked again.
The lawyers never did anything to correct the dogs for aggression, and never sought professional assistance, despite being urged to by a veterinarian who saw the dogs and wrote the lawyers a letter, calling the dogs "ticking time bombs."
The attack on Whipple was very predictable. In addition, I think breeding likely had little to do with the behavior of these dogs. They were made, not born. If they had been raised by strong, responsible owners with experience with strong dogs, they likely would have been perfectly fine.
*disclaimer: I am a conservative defense lawyer
cassandrasdaddy
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you left out the special training that got videotaped. might have an influence can't figure how to describe it on a high road
WeedWhacker
Member
I disagree completely. Just a few weeks ago, a personal friend had a tool-wielding burglar break the door and frame of her residence just before being scared off by her little "harmless" dog's barking and growling. Instant response time versus what, twenty minutes for ADT?
The only reason I don't own a dog is because I believe keeping one in my current small residence would be cruel. The moment I move into some place with some room and a yard, *bam*, will be buying and putting a lot of effort into training a nice big dog.
Dixie_Amazon
Member
I consider my big dog a deterrent more than protection. She is an over-sized (75 pounds) Boxer. Something to make a criminal think of finding an easier mark.
When a repairman comes to the house I grab her collar in order to restrain her. The visitor doesn't know it is just to keep her from slobbering them to death.
When a repairman comes to the house I grab her collar in order to restrain her. The visitor doesn't know it is just to keep her from slobbering them to death.
gyp_c2
Member
hmmm...
...don't get a working dog if yer' not gonna' work it...It'll find its' own job if you don't. Don't get anything you can't pick up BYYOURSELF either...Most of the 40-60 lb. dogs at healthy weight will be a handful for most people.
Personal Protection Dogs are not toys...they are t-o-o-l-s...
Most dogs can be worked at obedience, some can be Personal Protection trained...but it's like any individual...You'll have some that CAN do it, some that WILL do it and some that LOVE IT...
If your dog will run to the sound of the guns, just make sure that's what you really want.
...the toughest little dog I ever saw was a German Shep bitch...ALL she wanted to do was chase guys and BITE THEM...70 LBS of nothing but teeth...She would also dig a bullet out of the ground...She wouldn't back down from any punishment. Once she was fired up, the fight was on...You could out her, but it became increasingly difficult...and this for people that worked with dogs every day...
Be sure of what you really want...If you think you are willing to put a stop on a dog like this that weighs as much or more than you do, you'd better be prepared to go to school yourself...
Why not go to a trainer that has trained dogs and let them show you what their day is like...Then, you'll have an idea what it takes to work with working dogs
BTW...she came to the door silently waggin' her tail...
...don't get a working dog if yer' not gonna' work it...It'll find its' own job if you don't. Don't get anything you can't pick up BYYOURSELF either...Most of the 40-60 lb. dogs at healthy weight will be a handful for most people.
Personal Protection Dogs are not toys...they are t-o-o-l-s...
Most dogs can be worked at obedience, some can be Personal Protection trained...but it's like any individual...You'll have some that CAN do it, some that WILL do it and some that LOVE IT...
If your dog will run to the sound of the guns, just make sure that's what you really want.
...the toughest little dog I ever saw was a German Shep bitch...ALL she wanted to do was chase guys and BITE THEM...70 LBS of nothing but teeth...She would also dig a bullet out of the ground...She wouldn't back down from any punishment. Once she was fired up, the fight was on...You could out her, but it became increasingly difficult...and this for people that worked with dogs every day...
Be sure of what you really want...If you think you are willing to put a stop on a dog like this that weighs as much or more than you do, you'd better be prepared to go to school yourself...
Why not go to a trainer that has trained dogs and let them show you what their day is like...Then, you'll have an idea what it takes to work with working dogs
BTW...she came to the door silently waggin' her tail...
a dog not to overlook as an allrounder is a dalmation. tough, loyal and brave the only drawback is they need quite a bit of excercise. they started as a coachmans dog to run alongside the horses and keep unsaveries away, there black on white was bred so the coach driver could see em better ! a good unassumming no threat dog that people notice or be intimidated by cos of its " 101 " fluffy tag. but this dog can rock when needed, stay away from the ones with show lines in the history. an undercover ppd.
Unfortunately, one cannot find many healthy Dalmatian lines. Deafness combined with hyper-energy is a put-off for most (who admittedly may have purchased them after Disney made them popular again). They certainly are large enough, but I don't know about the courage, drive and whatnot.
Australian Shepherds would do well; 40 to 60 lbs, tough, "one-person/family" attitude and since it's a shepherd breed it's very protective.
Many breeds will do; but the question is what does one want the dog to do. Looks like he wanted a man stopper. If that's the case (and he's already purchased the Molosser of choice) then that's what he's got. Whether he feels that way two years from now is another matter.
Australian Shepherds would do well; 40 to 60 lbs, tough, "one-person/family" attitude and since it's a shepherd breed it's very protective.
Many breeds will do; but the question is what does one want the dog to do. Looks like he wanted a man stopper. If that's the case (and he's already purchased the Molosser of choice) then that's what he's got. Whether he feels that way two years from now is another matter.
good advice chui - spot on - over here you can get dal's that are alittle better if you look. dont buy showdogs. quick funny story, i was workin with this guy, big 200 odd pounder, he and his wife were gonna get a dog - he wanted a big manly breed, gsd or rotty, she wanted a toy, small and cute breed. while he was at work she went to the pound and got a year old standard poodle (big white one) and called it cindy. well, he got home and went mad, now this dog was a bit special and was real hard work. the guy renamed it syndrome and its worst habit was jumpin up at people. one night she had some of her boss' over for dinner. she gave the dog calm tablets and everthing but the dog still went wild - when it jumped up the fella got his revenge shoutin -down syndrome ! all night. the whole time. everyone was disgusted by this tastless joke and the couple split soon afterwards. oh, a little while later the girl had a disaggrement over a parkin space and a guy grabbed her. cindy got stuck straight into him and bit him back into his car. all this from a dog that could barely siton command. show em a bit a love.........
short hairs do shed hair!
If you are thinking a short hair dog doesn't shed you are WRONG!
I have 2 basset hounds - short hair - pretty much live in the house and they shed especially now that summers coming on! But they also shed all winter, all fall, all spring and all summer - 99% of dogs shed! Try the airdales or poodles or giant schnauzers maybe they dont shed. The good news is you get used to it.
If you are not a dog expert like the dog whisperer and do not have vast experience raising and training dogs I would start with a milder breed.
If you are thinking a short hair dog doesn't shed you are WRONG!
I have 2 basset hounds - short hair - pretty much live in the house and they shed especially now that summers coming on! But they also shed all winter, all fall, all spring and all summer - 99% of dogs shed! Try the airdales or poodles or giant schnauzers maybe they dont shed. The good news is you get used to it.
If you are not a dog expert like the dog whisperer and do not have vast experience raising and training dogs I would start with a milder breed.
I read the transcripts of the trial and appeal (denied) of Knoller and Noel, the defendants in the SF Whipple slaying.
Autopsies of the dogs stomachs showed that the male had devoured parts of Whipple (don't recall if the female also ate.)
There is no training that I know of which allow dogs to consume human targets.
These dogs were vicious beyond human irresponsibility.
Autopsies of the dogs stomachs showed that the male had devoured parts of Whipple (don't recall if the female also ate.)
There is no training that I know of which allow dogs to consume human targets.
These dogs were vicious beyond human irresponsibility.
Cosmoline
Member
Cohen the GSD has always managed to take all my covers and 90% of whatever I'm sleeping on. I think he prods me with his feet when I'm sleeping and "herds" me over there.
IMHO they're the best of all protection dogs. Those who don't know better assume the big males are best, but as with Cohen they frequently have their own agendas. He'll sleep right through trouble. The best guard dog was an old female, since passed away unfortunately. She had total awareness of what was happening around her, and would wake me up if there was anything that looked like trouble. She rarely barked, but she was tough as nails. She had been trained to guard a large jewelry store in Belgium and had taken down several bad guys during her career.
crankshop1000
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I have a Doberman, they are my personal favorite,but I would also consider a Rottweiler or a Bovier.These are all capable guard dogs.There was an incident here in Michigan a few years ago where a Bovier was stabbed to death defending it's home. The Bovier persued the BG and did battle with him in every room of the house. The BG was arrested at the hospital where he was seeking treatment for severe lacerations and blood loss from the bites.That my friends is a DOG!!! Chuck.
Bouvier
+1 on the Bouvier, although their coat requires trimming, is very thick and high maintenance. It does, however, add to their already impressive appearance.
My neighbors up the road have a young male Bouvier, and he likes to play with my two labradors. He tosses my 90+ pound lab around like he was a beagle. If you have never seen a bouvier charge, it is pretty impressive! A couple of nights ago he was coming down the road on leash and I was out with my dogs. When 140 pounds of dog wants to come play he is hard to hold on to, so his owner called out if she should let him go. In the meantime, my 65 pound lab was parading around, barking and growling at him - until the leash came off.
Then it was time for a frantic retreat by the little dog. Fortunately, the Bouvier is much gentler with the smaller one than with the bigger dog, although the little one is fast and has some great moves They are all 3 getting into the 3-5 year old range, and are starting to settle down in their play a bit - more just running around together than the frantic wrestling and chasing.
Last year, they let the Bouvier out very early in the morning and there were two coyotes in the driveway. Off he went in pursuit, into the woods. He came back in about 15 minutes and did not have blood on his muzzle, so they assumed he did not catch them. I said, yeah, and now there are a couple of coyotes, sitting around the campfire, telling the story that starts out, "And then a pony came out, only it was a really mean pony".
My original point was that the Whipple killing was predictable - not a sudden event by a previously well mannered animal.
I have read the transcripts, as well as seen some of the excluded evidence, and it is not for the faint of heart. Frankly, if Stephen King had written this whole tale, it would be easy to say it was too far fetched.
We could probably debate the nature/nurture issue endlessly and never really know the answer - it is just my feeling that if these two dogs had a different path, with an sane owner experienced in handling mollossers, they would have been fine. Just a feeling, though.
+1 on the Bouvier, although their coat requires trimming, is very thick and high maintenance. It does, however, add to their already impressive appearance.
My neighbors up the road have a young male Bouvier, and he likes to play with my two labradors. He tosses my 90+ pound lab around like he was a beagle. If you have never seen a bouvier charge, it is pretty impressive! A couple of nights ago he was coming down the road on leash and I was out with my dogs. When 140 pounds of dog wants to come play he is hard to hold on to, so his owner called out if she should let him go. In the meantime, my 65 pound lab was parading around, barking and growling at him - until the leash came off.
Then it was time for a frantic retreat by the little dog. Fortunately, the Bouvier is much gentler with the smaller one than with the bigger dog, although the little one is fast and has some great moves They are all 3 getting into the 3-5 year old range, and are starting to settle down in their play a bit - more just running around together than the frantic wrestling and chasing.
Last year, they let the Bouvier out very early in the morning and there were two coyotes in the driveway. Off he went in pursuit, into the woods. He came back in about 15 minutes and did not have blood on his muzzle, so they assumed he did not catch them. I said, yeah, and now there are a couple of coyotes, sitting around the campfire, telling the story that starts out, "And then a pony came out, only it was a really mean pony".
My original point was that the Whipple killing was predictable - not a sudden event by a previously well mannered animal.
I have read the transcripts, as well as seen some of the excluded evidence, and it is not for the faint of heart. Frankly, if Stephen King had written this whole tale, it would be easy to say it was too far fetched.
We could probably debate the nature/nurture issue endlessly and never really know the answer - it is just my feeling that if these two dogs had a different path, with an sane owner experienced in handling mollossers, they would have been fine. Just a feeling, though.
TheOtherOne
Member
3+ years now and no regrets on my decision. Great dog and an excellent early warning system. Nobody can get close to the house without her letting me know. Extremely friendly to anyone I let in though.
The only problem is I usually take her everywhere I go, so she doesn't get to help much in protecting the house when nobody else is home.
The only problem is I usually take her everywhere I go, so she doesn't get to help much in protecting the house when nobody else is home.
WeThePeople
Member
Sorry, but I have to say it:
I looked at the website pics linked to in the OP. What the @$#% kind of HUNT happens in a cage? Jesus, Mary, & Joseph what is wrong with people?
I looked at the website pics linked to in the OP. What the @$#% kind of HUNT happens in a cage? Jesus, Mary, & Joseph what is wrong with people?
TheOtherOne
Member
24" and last time I weighed her (which was quite awhile ago) she was exactly 100 lbs.Chui said:
Man that is a beautiful dog, I love brindles. I have a brindle dane that is almost a year old and already 170lbs and a 100 lbs doberman. They are both the sweetest dogs you have ever seen, but you should see the pizza man when they answer the door.
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