Jogging gun / dog protection

[Hook686]

March 15th, 2007, 02:18 PM #19

45/70

wrote:

People who shoot dogs while jogging get arrested. They get arrested for shooting in an uban area, and they get arrested for shooting domestic pets.

If you want a "dog gun" . . . get a squirt gun full of household ammonia. That and pepper spray. If a dog chases you report it to the police.

We had a jerk shoot a dog while he was out jogging. An off-duty cop. They tossed him in jail for six months, and he'll never work on the police force again. Discharge of a firearm in an urban area, and abuse of a domestic animal.

People who shoot dogs are jerks.

Certainly one opinion. My thought is people who let their dogs run unleashed are the real jerks. I'm a disabled old veteran. I will not risk a dog even jumping up on me, as such action could easily knock me down and cause very serious injury to me ... worse, if the dog continues its aggression.

Why do so many really rag on that punk that beat down that 101 year old woman, yet so many think Fido deserves to act similarly ?

 

[barnetmill]

rust

For me one concern about carrying a gun while running in a hot humid climate is human sweat. While not yet carrying a gun while running I have carried one while working outdoors concealed and while doing martial arts outside. The first one was a AMT .380 DA backup. Some minor rust did appear on the trigger linkage with time. The gun also occasionally required a complete cleaning that requires taking it apart. This is a big pain for the AMT. Never had to defend my self with it, but did kill two snakes (non-poisoness, but not harmless) with it that were living too close to my house. I now use a S&W VE 9mm that is plastic and SS steel.

For running I use to carry a short length of #5 rebar wrapped in a towel. I thinking about running again and since I now have a permit I might carry. My Keltecs and glock 33 are not stainless and I am worried about corrosion. I have a S&W VE, but it is large. My P14 is obviously too big.

You also have to carry your permit with when you carry a gun in Florida.

My thoughts, but I have not yet made a decision.

 

[DDrake]

On his way home from high school one day back in America, he was held at bay by an off duty police officer's attack K-9. He asked the man to release the dog. The off duty cop smugly refused. After a second refused request, my friend then raised his left hand as if it was holding a weapon. As the dog went for the weapon, my friend broke its neck by kicking it with his right knee. The cop lost his job.

What?

So, cop refuses to let dog loose .... guy makes dog attack him by pretending to have a weapon...... guy kills dog ...... cop looses job?


Am I mis-reading this, you made your friend sound like a total a-hole.

 

[5Wire]

Am I mis-reading this, you made your friend sound like a total a-hole.

DDrake, The dog was already loose, unrestrained, and threatening my friend. That's what 'holding at bay' means. Under the circumstances of the confrontation, setting a trained attack dog (under command of its handler) on a person is a crime, a felony, I believe. Sounds like you're trying to pick a fight, yourself. I can't remember the fine points of this event but I believe the cop was given the choice of resigning or having to stand on an aggravated assault charge. He got off easy.

I hope you fare as well and simply misread my post or misunderstood the nature of the attack condoned by the dog's handler. Otherwise, it would seem you are sadly misguided.

 

[Mark8252]

defense

a 38 should be good against anything short of a pack of dogs.
Look at a lady smith. Small and compact.
I know off duty cops that carry them.

 

[obxned]

Most of the dangerous animals are two-legged. Pack accordingly.

 

[1911Tuner]

Dogs

As a dyed-in-the-wool dog lover, I don't like to see one hurt...but some dogs just won't have it any other way. I love the critters, but I ain't willin' to let a big one chew on me just to prove it.

Unless specifically trained to get around a weapon, most dogs up to 100 pounds can be handled with a pointy stick about 5 feet long and 7/16ths inch in diameter. Hold the stick out in front, arms bent, straight at the dog's face. If he lunges...which, because he's faced with a willing antagonist, he probably won't...he'll clamp down on the closest thing to him. Wait until he bites it, and shove the stick down his throat...hard...and keep pushing as he retreats. Don't be gentle. Keep him on the defensive. If you want to be especially nasty, once it's in deep, you can yank it hard sideways and break it off...but it probably won't be necessary.

 

[Sundles]

Got to go with HOOK686

Hook,

I agree. How do people with aggressive dogs rationalize letting the dog wander loose???

If your dog is even a little dangerous, it is super inconsiderate to let it wander. If you cant afford to keep it properly fenced, then you owe it to every one else, to sell or give away the dog to some one that can handle it properly.

When I jog, (which I dont do any more, but used to put in several miles per day five times a week) I carry a Freedom Arms Mini revlver in 22 mag. It gives me several shots of 22 mag.. Its little one inch barrel and tiny frame conceal in my hand as I jog. My body sweat causes no problems for the all stainless construction. Sure, it is not a lot of gun, but it conceals in my hand and will likely deture and dog or human if I discahrge it in thier face. Not the best choice, but great for jogging. I carried this gun for years while jogging in California and years later in Idaho.

 

[DawgFvr]

I'd like to bring up this thread again...since the weather has become nicer now and I do run around our local lake...and have been chased by dogs recently. I have ordered a 21 inch asp baton...when closed, I can run with it in my hands, um, like a baton...eh? Anyway, I feel much more confident with this device. Has...or...does anybody run with a baton? Feedback? Oh...I also saw a bianchi ankle strap for civilian stealth carry of this baton. Living in WA state, I am not sure if it is legal or not...but there are times where I might need to defend myself and a gun just might not be warranted.

 

[sansone]

I sold a jogger a NAA 22mag mini revolver. he says he jogs without the gun's size or weight being an issue. he tried jogging with a 38 snub but it was too heavy. he bought it only do stop large dogs that seem to attack runners. we live in an area where people seem to let their dogs roam in packs.

 

[ArmedBear]

people with aggressive dogs

Most "aggression" I've seen has been from dogs that were friendly. It isn't considerate (or legal where I live) to let your dog run around on public property.

However, it also isn't considerate to shoot someone's pet out of ignorance, and I hear a lot of ignorance on this board.

Guns + ignorance = excuses for anti-gun legislation

If you're going to carry a gun, the onus is on you to keep an open mind and learn as much as you can about perceived threats and how to counter them.

All of that said, pepper spray is probably more effective against dogs than anything else including a firearm, especially a .22, and you can get squirt-guns that shoot it a long distance. Saw a demo the other day; they're cool!

A truly aggressive dog can attack after being shot. That's one reason pepper spray is often more effective, and is commonly carried by people who actually do encounter aggressive dogs often.

 

[Mainsail]

Dogs, even the friendliest family pets, can become irrationally aggressive. I’ve experienced it firsthand. Our normally mild mannered puppy picked up a hamburger wrapper someone left on the ground, we tried to take it out of his mouth, and he violently snapped at us. It was frightening because it was so totally unexpected. (This is referred to as ‘food aggression’)

 

[sansone]

I think we can tell if the dog is being friendly. large dogs can kill the young or elderly. joggers trigger attacks in certain predators. dogs in roaming packs do behave differently than old yeller

 

[mmwb]

"People who shoot dogs are jerks."

People who let their animals roam are jerks. Joy killing dogs is inexcusable. Defending yourself against an aggressive "pet" is intelligent.

 

[Chui]

A couple of things in error.

"Pit Bulldogs" - actually, any Molossid except, perhaps, the Fila Brasilero - is less likely to attack you than just about any other breed of dog. Why is this so? Well, they aren't easily intimidated so they don't respond out of fear. The gamebred Pit Bulls are not at all likely to attack you because historically the "man fighters" were always put down due to the belief that the man fighters were not game and no one wants a non-game Pitdog... Besides, a pissed off Pit Bull snapping at my face is not my idea of a great time.

There is also nothing unique about their jaws which allow them to "lock" or tear flesh more efficiently. They probably do not possess the strongest jaws, either. What they DO have is a trait called gameness coupled with plenty of musculature of the jaws, neck,shoulders and the ability to take a tremendous amount of physical abuse. The "gameness" genes and protection drive seem to be diametrically opposed. Thank God. However, a Pit Bull doesn't require all of that gameness of a well-bred pit dog to do you or I in and that is what we're facing in the urban and suburban jungles for the most part.

Somewhere, some institute did a study of dog breed personalities and confirmed what I just typed. I'll try to find it.

Now, those who think a "swift kick" will stop a determined dog may need to think again. Have any of you seen a working strain dog work? How about a Dutch Shepherd, Belgian Malinois or the pea-brained media's "darlin', the Pit Bull actually work? I can assure you that a kick or punch will not stop them. Ditto for any of the large protection breeds such as Rottweilers, Bouviers, Giant Schnauzers and any of the mastiffs.

I ride my all terrain bike such that I can carry my M&P or my 1911 since it's not so damaging to the skeletal system as jogging with nearly 3 lbs on my strong side. I also carry a fighting knife as well as pepper spray mounted to the bike.

True story.

I was biking home on the sidewalk when I noticed a large American Bulldog unleashed looking my way. He's probably no more than 60 feet away and he was on his feet and moving in my direction. I was coming to a stop light and there was a long line of cars stopped at the light. I slowed down, uncovered my pistol and had my hand on it as I slowly passed the home with the loose dog who simply watched me go by before his owner called him. Well, you can imagine the look I got from the line of automobiles as I looked back at them and covered my weapon. I nodded, took a sip from my Camelbak and continued peddling.

Now I simply ADORE animals, especially dogs and especially Molossids (Mastiffs and Mastiff-derived breeds), but I'd not hesitated to shoot a dog - especially a Molossid - if it were threatening to bite me. You'd not want to be grabbed by one.

I also know of police officers who shot Pit Bulldogs with .357 Magnum as well as .40 S&W and STILL get mauled. Such is the tenacity and quickness of a determined dog. Underestimate them at your own peril.

One other thing I've done to "fear innoculate" myself from aggressive dogs is don the sleeve while a PPD attacks the sleeve. I can tell you now the intensity and strength is phenomenal as is the pressure they apply to the sleeve. My next step is to don the suit and have a Malinois run me down. The manner in which they leap into the target is a bit intimidating to me right now. It soon will not be.

Check out the following websites:

http://www.leerburg.com
http://www.molosserdogs.com

Also, if approached aggressively everyone knows to cease running or biking and stand your ground, right? You don't want to urge their prey drive and it's easier to draw and shoot them in the head - something I came close to doing downtown last year when I was snapped at by a Pit Bulldog mix. He ran out of leash before he could grab my knee... I drew on the dog as the owner was screaming at the top of his lungs simultaneously trying to get the dog behind him and out of the muzzle of my 1911. Once he had the dog in a bear hug I reholstered and flagged the police who promptly ticketed him.

You've gotta keep your wits about you.

Be safe.

 

[ArmedBear]

Dogs, even the friendliest family pets, can become irrationally aggressive. I’ve experienced it firsthand. Our normally mild mannered puppy picked up a hamburger wrapper someone left on the ground, we tried to take it out of his mouth, and he violently snapped at us. It was frightening because it was so totally unexpected. (This is referred to as ‘food aggression’)

If that was totally unexpected, you need to learn about dogs. That's okay. We're not born knowing all about dogs. But don't blame the dog for what you don't know about him.

For the purpose of this thread, though, it's a bad idea to take the food out of the mouth of a dog you don't know. If you don't do that, you'll have less reason to shoot him.

I think we can tell if the dog is being friendly.

Maybe you can.

However, my daily experience says that many people can't. Posts on this forum indicate that people here can't, either.

Example: there's a SWEET Vizsla puppy that hangs out outside I gym I go to. Her owner is a trainer. She's a show dog. She is so overly friendly that she wiggles all over when we walk by, and will jump up and try to lick my face at the slightest provocation. This may be a trait that people want to train their dogs out of, but she's a puppy still.

Anyway, I've heard from two people that she's "aggressive." They say she jumps up to bite them in the face. I've seen this dog interact enough to know what they're talking about, and it's not aggression. Not in the least.

I'd hate to see her shot for it. And there are people on this forum who would probably shoot her, at least if they're not just a bunch of jerks on the internet, mouthing off.

 

[Hook686]

ArmedBear .... I think you might be right, but you know what ? I prefer to error on the side of preserving my physical well-being and life. I do not want, even friendly dogs, jumping up to lick my face. Hell, I cannot predict how animals, that I can speak the same language with, might respond, I sure as heck can not 2nd guess a 4 legged animal. If I guess wrong, I'm history ... keep your dog under leash, and within your sphere of control, at all times, and we will all be better off, for it.

 

[Sundles]

I doubt any one loves dogs more than me. Im not going to get into my history with all the large dogs I've owned and trained either, as it will sound unbelievable. But I'll tell you this much. When I bought a home in Loomis, CA 20 years ago, I spent over $30,000.00 on fencing (that was a lot of money back then) to keep my dogs in. I cant understand how folks can advocate on the side of dogs, and then refuse to see that it is impolite, unfair (to the dogs and the people) and dangerous to let dogs roam unrestrained amoungst humans.

Your dog will be killed if it trys to bite me or any one I am with outside of its own residence. Yes, I understand dog behavior very well. It is not fair to place any person or any dog in this situation. The dogs owner needs to wake up and be responsible. What I dont understand is irresponsible dog owners.

 

[5Wire]

Sundles: Well done and well stated.

 

[sansone]

+1 sundles / the owners who let their dogs roam are to blame

 

[Lovesbeer99]

I'm not sure if this was covered cause i didn't read all 94 posts, but I believe the JHP's are a go to choice cause everyone knows you need a Hollow point for self defense. But for a 38 snubby you lose way to much velocity for the HP to be effective. I'd switch to flat points or SWC.

Good luck

Lovesbeer99

 

[PT-Partners]

First, Sundles, Well stated.

I know the subject has been thoroughly examined but I have been running for 40 years and a 3 foot stick has worked for me. I have been chased about 30 times over the years. Knowing I cannot outrun the yapping mongrel from an owner who does not care if his "beloved " pet who would never bite (yea right as I got a hole in my pant leg) gets "killed" by a car. The other is the abandoned stray.

Stick, stop point, face and 99.9999999% of the time the "beloved" FiFi, Molly, Daisy, or whatever the loose mutt's name is will back off. If not be prepared to hit the face or nose cause whatever it is thinks you are a large chew toy.

Gun. you have to know where the round goes when you miss. And hitting moving target as fast as a dog is hard. Few train at that level. Remember in the city you got plenty of kids, and other soft targets for your miss. You hit something else and cannot show immenent threat to life you are in "deep" defication.

If you must carry a gun, try snake shot as the first shot. but in any urban area gun is not a wise choice, country or rural maybe.

Since my knees are about gone (55 years old). I have started riding a bike as well as running a bit less and I am in the country, I keep an old 38 with snake, hollow point, snake and four more hollow point in that order as the number of abandoned animals is quite high. It is really pathetic how many dogs are tossed, but that is another story. Never used it but no place for the stick any more.

Just some thoughts from one who has been chased a few times.

 

[Wire]

That guy I mentioned earlier?
He died.

 

[rick newland]

Sako is my jogging partner. He has never failed to take care of any problems.