Judge allows discrimination against volunteer border-patrol group

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IF we need Mexicans, and I say IF, let's get it all out into the open and talk hard facts and hard numbers. And let's do whatever we do under the aegis of The Law. Winking at illegality isn't the way to run a great country. The reality, as I see it, is that Bush is afraid of honest and thorough debate on the full impact of illegal immigration. He has to make a better case than his impassioned religious conviction that "hard-working moms and dads" have some unacknowledged right to come across the border and work here.

Your characterization, crazed_ss, of the Minutemen is both inaccurate and insulting. Stereotypes are not going to help resolve a difficult issue.
 
crazed_ss said:
I'm just pointing out that people with objectionable point of views get parade permits all the time and they're not forced to include anyone they dont want to. It's their parade, they allow whoever they want to participate.

I dunno.. the minutemen.. I dont get a good vibe from them. Maybe it's because when they show them out on the border, they're all a bunch of old white guys with confederate flags trying to look badass with their guns. It doesnt look like Americans trying to protect the borders. Looks like a bunch of bored old guys with guns with nothing better to do.

Come down to San Diego and you'd realize the immigration is bigger than shutting down the borders with guns and kicking out Mexicans. San Diego/Tijuana is an interwined society.. economically, socially, culturally. The border is just a technicallity. Withouth Mexican immigrants, the agriculture economy here ends. That simple.

My mom does real estate down in North Carolina. She says people down there are hating the influx of Mexicans, but they're loving all the new construction and real estate developments.

This is the reason Bush hasnt cracked down on the border. IMO, illegals benefit the US more than they cause harm.

Well, I believe that you have an agenda, guy. Would you feel the same about the Minutemen if they were just a bunch of old black guys? Hispanic guys? 'Cause they are both represented in the Minutemen. Tell ya the truth, I just don't think that you're being honest.
Biker
 
Withouth Mexican immigrants, the agriculture economy here ends. That simple.

Let me get this straight: we need TWENTY MILLION Mexicans to work the fields in America? And how many more unskilled, uneducated laborers are we going to need over the NEXT ten years?

This is NOT about filling realistic labor needs but about something far larger and largely undiscussed.

Illegal Mexican immigration stopped being about agri-biz and border areas a long, long time ago.
 
I havent seen much diversity in their group.. but maybe their is.
Im just going off what I've seen on TV..

We all know how accurate that is :)
 
crazed_ss said:
I havent seen much diversity in their group.. but maybe their is.
Im just going off what I've seen on TV..

We all know how accurate that is :)
I've never seen any Minutemen sporting Confederate Flags. Got a link?
And you stated that "they were here last week causing trouble". Link?
I think that you're BS'n.
Prove me wrong?
Biker
 
crazed ss, from articles in such sources as the LA Times, I have read that the net COST to California from illegals is some Six billion dollars per year. Social services, schools, medicine, crime.

I have red that in teh greater LA Basin, some 64 hospitals have either completely closed or have closed their emergency rooms. Some 25 more are due to follow that course this year or next. The reports claim that it is due to non-pay in emergency rooms. Doctors and nurses state that about one-half of the non-pay patients are illegals.

So, tell me again of the good that illegals do. Oh, and I suggest you don't have a serilous car wreck in the greater LA Basin...

Art
 
It doesnt look like Americans trying to protect the borders.
They'er not. They observe and report.

What I would like to see "trying to protect the borders" from illegals, and smugglers, is a bunch of National Guard troopers with .50 caliber MGs mounted on humvees.

Along with that would be some type of green card program like we had for years. The citizens of Mexico, and other countries, would be able to work legally and go back and forth between their jobs and home.

Legal immigrants, fine.

Illegal Aliens, no matter from where, NO.
 
Art Eatman said:
crazed ss, from articles in such sources as the LA Times, I have read that the net COST to California from illegals is some Six billion dollars per year. Social services, schools, medicine, crime.

I have red that in teh greater LA Basin, some 64 hospitals have either completely closed or have closed their emergency rooms. Some 25 more are due to follow that course this year or next. The reports claim that it is due to non-pay in emergency rooms. Doctors and nurses state that about one-half of the non-pay patients are illegals.

So, tell me again of the good that illegals do. Oh, and I suggest you don't have a serilous car wreck in the greater LA Basin...

Art

I havent seen those numbers about illegals and hospitals. Makes sense though. Many Americans take advatange of the cheap labor provided by illegals.. Especially in the construction, agricultural, and service industry.. they deserve some services. They make money here and spend it. They're part of the economy. Wells Fargo is even offering home loans to illegals now. It's all about the almight dollar.. It's capitalism. it's America.

I live about nine miles from the San Ysidro port of Entry though. Half the cars in my area are sporting license plates from Baja California (Mexico). Some of the stores here even accept pesos. English is a secondary language. When I go to businesses, they often use Spanish with me even though Im black. Doesnt bother me. I dont really see it as in an "invasion".. just people taking advantage of oppurtunity. Just like all the huddled masses that came over from Europe through Ellis Island.

I'm not too concerned about illegals hitting my car. I have car insurance. Plus they all drive live grandmas anyway. Probably cause they dont want to involve the Police and get turned over to immigration.
 
Biker said:
I've never seen any Minutemen sporting Confederate Flags. Got a link?
And you stated that "they were here last week causing trouble". Link?
I think that you're BS'n.
Prove me wrong?
Biker

Here's an article about the minutemen here this week. At least they were going after the root of the problem this time instead of showing off their .45's and AR's down on the border.
http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2006/02/05/news/top_stories/19_07_212_4_06.txt

Ill see if I can find the pic of the flag.

EDIT:

Pics like this is why I'm not a fan of these guys..
http://www.boingboing.net/images/minutemen/MinutemanYoungGun.jpg
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/C...0406_meeks_minuteman_guns_bcol3p.standard.jpg

If they're just going to observe and report, why do they need to sport the fancy schmancy tactical gear? There was a thread on this board about them selecting the SU-16 as their official rifle. If they're just out to observe, why do they need an official rifle?
 
befuddled masses

I havent seen those numbers about illegals and hospitals. Makes sense though. Many Americans take advatange of the cheap labor provided by illegals.. Especially in the construction, agricultural, and service industry.. they deserve some services. They make money here and spend it. They're part of the economy. Wells Fargo is even offering home loans to illegals now. It's all about the almight dollar.. It's capitalism. it's America.

I live about nine miles from the San Ysidro port of Entry though. Half the cars in my area are sporting license plates from Baja California (Mexico). Some of the stores here even accept pesos. English is a secondary language. When I go to businesses, they often use Spanish with me even though Im black. Doesnt bother me. I dont really see it as in an "invasion".. just people taking advantage of oppurtunity. Just like all the huddled masses that came over from Europe through Ellis Island.

I'm not too concerned about illegals hitting my car. I have car insurance. Plus they all drive live grandmas anyway. Probably cause they dont want to involve the Police and get turned over to immigration.

How does that commercial go? "Don't bother me, I'm eating!"

Sure, they're taking pesos, English is a second language, they drive without legal driver's licenses, the banks just see them as a new profit center, and as for the social costs, well, heck, they deserve some services because, well, they're on this side of the border... No problema.

By the way, Emma Lazarus was a well-heeled New York Marxist.
 
crazed_ss said:
Many Americans take advatange of the cheap labor provided by illegals.. Especially in the construction, agricultural, and service industry.. they deserve some services. They make money here and spend it. They're part of the economy. Wells Fargo is even offering home loans to illegals now. It's all about the almight dollar.. It's capitalism. it's America.

I live about nine miles from the San Ysidro port of Entry though. Half the cars in my area are sporting license plates from Baja California (Mexico). Some of the stores here even accept pesos. English is a secondary language. When I go to businesses, they often use Spanish with me even though Im black. Doesnt bother me. I dont really see it as in an "invasion".. just people taking advantage of oppurtunity. Just like all the huddled masses that came over from Europe through Ellis Island.

I'm not too concerned about illegals hitting my car. I have car insurance. Plus they all drive live grandmas anyway. Probably cause they dont want to involve the Police and get turned over to immigration.


I'm sorry you have to live like that.:barf:I suggest a rapid escape.

God help us if high roaders are already giving up.
 
crazed_ss said:
Here's an article about the minutemen here this week. At least they were going after the root of the problem this time instead of showing off their .45's and AR's down on the border.
http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2006/02/05/news/top_stories/19_07_212_4_06.txt

Ill see if I can find the pic of the flag.

EDIT:

Pics like this is why I'm not a fan of these guys..
http://www.boingboing.net/images/minutemen/MinutemanYoungGun.jpg
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/C...0406_meeks_minuteman_guns_bcol3p.standard.jpg

If they're just going to observe and report, why do they need to sport the fancy schmancy tactical gear? There was a thread on this board about them selecting the SU-16 as their official rifle. If they're just out to observe, why do they need an official rifle?

I don't see what the problem is with their gear. I don't know where the photo was taken, but open carry may be their only legal option. I see nothing objectionable about any of the photos. Why do they bother you?
Methinks you're being disengenuous.
Biker
 
Hey Biker, your up early.
You know I don't see anything special about those pics with the rebel flag on the shoulder T-shirt and the bandana. Heck I was in a grocery store in mississippi last summer with my son and saw more rebel flags than that.
I was expecting men on horseback with civil war sized flags.
crazed_ss I do feel sorry for you though having to live in a situation like that.:uhoh:
 
Back to the original topic:

If the city attorney is arguing in favor of the the parade organizers, that would seem to imply that the city is in some way sponsoring the parade, assuming the said attorney's time is being paid for by the city government.

If that is indeed the case, then the parade would seem to have two options:

1) Let the Minutemen participate

2) Keep out any group that is identified with any sort of political or religious viewpoint. Since pretty much any group with enough members to sponsor marchers and/or floats can be identified in some way with some sort of political or religious viewpoint, this would exclude just about everyone except the school marching bands and the military color guard.
 
Biker said:
I don't see what the problem is with their gear. I don't know where the photo was taken, but open carry may be their only legal option. I see nothing objectionable about any of the photos. Why do they bother you?
Methinks you're being disengenuous.
Biker

I agree.

As another San Diegan, I have failed to see the "trouble" they've caused. I'd venture so far as to say that the assertion is a load of crap. Groups who support illegal immigration have caused a lot more, and have committed violent acts. It's on film.

The Minutemen have carried openly in an area frequented by smugglers and cross-border drug gangs. It's within their rights, as well as yours and mine, where they are. I know people who live in some of the small towns out there, and they all carry when they go for a walk. I think LE just looks the other way when they carry concealed, as long as there's no trouble. But the Minutemen can't take that chance, and San Diego doesn't issue CCW's to those who aren't "connected."

Crying "racist" when one has no substantive argument is pathetic and I, for one, am tired of this kind of mindless intimidation used by people who can't win a debate on the merits. In fact, this grade-school tactic makes me tune out.

The notion that San Diego and Tijuana are a unified region and that the border is artificial is a canard. Artists and academics like to spew this, but there's not much to support the assertion. That doesn't mean there's no interaction between the two places, or that we aren't friendly to each other; but there's a lot of interaction between Seattle and Japan, too. That doesn't make Washington and Japan a single place.

Come visit and try to tell me that the two cities are really just one place. No one from out of town or another country has EVER gotten that impression. The reaction is generally, "Wow! We went from one of the US' most expensive cities straight to the third world in less than a half hour! What a trip!"

All that said, I like a lot of Mexicans, and I think that the threat supposedly posed by illegals is overblown. Still, I want to see a legal, above-board, honest program of cross-border labor. What we now have is not good for California, and it's not good for the honest hard-working illegals, either. The currenst situation only benefits corrupt employers and cross-border criminals, and breeds further disrespect for the law.

And yes, most tagging here, and there's a shocking amount, is gang-related and in Spanish. Things are not all rosy. Not everyone comes here to work hard and support a poor family, not by a long shot.
 
The parade is supposed to not allow political gtroups, per the organizers. Thus the judge's decision is correct. However, the organizers have in the past allowed groups which are indeed political, so their refusal of the participation by the Minutemen is hypocritical. Political correctness.

crazed ss, when one is outdoors in rough country, one wears appropriate clothing. The observations done in the desert are not practical for somebody in a three-piece suit with low-quarter shoes. It is a highly-publicized fact that a goodly number of violent people come north across the border, so having some means of self-defense is nothing more than common sense--not to mention being legal. Last, a fair percentage of the Minutemen are retired policemen and retired military. These people tend to be among the higher moral-standard people of our society.

I also note that the Minutemen are nothing more than a Neighborhood Watch group in a larger-than-usual neighborhood. Neighborhood Watch in the interest of preventing crime is usually taken to be a Good Thing, beloved of both police and residents...

Art
 
Art Eatman said:
The parade is supposed to not allow political gtroups, per the organizers. Thus the judge's decision is correct. However, the organizers have in the past allowed groups which are indeed political, so their refusal of the participation by the Minutemen is hypocritical. Political correctness.

Hypocritical as it may be.. it's their parade and they have want to include anyone they dont want to.

As far as the minutemen go, they just dont look like a group of people that I'd feel comfortable associating with. I've read that a lot of these anti-immigration have extremists and racists replying and they have to weed them out... this leaves me to wonder how many of these guys simply keep their mouths shut during the application process so they'll be accepted into the group. The group looks like a bunch of good ol boys out to hunt some Mexicans.. Like I said, if the minutemen didnt potray such an image, they wouldnt be so unpopular with people... then they might get included in a parade.
 
crazed_ss said:
Hypocritical as it may be.. it's their parade and they have want to include anyone they dont want to.

As far as the minutemen go, they just dont look like a group of people that I'd feel comfortable associating with. I've read that a lot of these anti-immigration have extremists and racists replying and they have to weed them out... this leaves me to wonder how many of these guys simply keep their mouths shut during the application process so they'll be accepted into the group. The group looks like a bunch of good ol boys out to hunt some Mexicans.. Like I said, if the minutemen didnt potray such an image, they wouldnt be so unpopular with people... then they might get included in a parade.
They portray that image to *you*. Possibly because you have preconcieved notions? Strange that folks who cry racism are often more guilty of that prioclivity than the ones they accuse. BTW, the Minutemen are pretty damn popular to most Americans here legally.
Biker
 
You know, crazed, you're right: Laguna Beach has the right to keep "undesirables" out of its parade.

And American citizens have the right to keep illegal immigrants out of the United States' "parade."
 
Biker said:
They portray that image to *you*. Possibly because you have preconcieved notions? Strange that folks who cry racism are often more guilty of that prioclivity than the ones they accuse. BTW, the Minutemen are pretty damn popular to most Americans here legally.
Biker

No...

Back in July two Mexicans were shot from a distance. Interestingly enough this is the same area that was being patrolled by the minutemen.. hmmm
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/mexico/tijuana/20050726-9999-1m26border.html
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/mexico/tijuana/20050727-9999-7m27shoot.html

Jim Chase, the leader of the minutemen out here even admitted it was probably rouges from his group who are responsible. A group that attracts such people is a group I dont want to be associated with.

Funny how they decided to leave soon after though..
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/mexico/tijuana/20050806-9999-7m6watchers.html
 
longeyes said:
You know, crazed, you're right: Laguna Beach has the right to keep "undesirables" out of its parade.

And American citizens have the right to keep illegal immigrants out of the United States' "parade."

First of all, it's not Laguna Beach's parade. It's a parade put on by a private group in Laguna Beach. Like I said before, the minutemen can put on their own parade and they can include (or not include) anyone they want.

Second, I never said the minutemen didnt have the right to do what they do. I'm just not a fan of how they go about it or the some of the people that they seem to attract.
 
crazed_ss said:
No...

Back in July two Mexicans were shot from a distance. Interestingly enough this is the same area that was being patrolled by the minutemen.. hmmm
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/mexico/tijuana/20050726-9999-1m26border.html
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/mexico/tijuana/20050727-9999-7m27shoot.html

Jim Chase, the leader of the minutemen out here even admitted it was probably rouges from his group who are responsible. A group that attracts such people is a group I dont want to be associated with.

Funny how they decided to leave soon after though..
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/mexico/tijuana/20050806-9999-7m6watchers.html
Where did Chase make such a statement?
Biker
 
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