Knife vs. Gun

[B yond]

Watch this.

Your thoughts?

Mine:

-From a defensive standpoint a gun is still a better weapon as it allows you to address multiple threats at multiple distances and can be drawn from concealment as fast as a fixed blade knife and often faster than a folding knife.

-From an offensive standpoint a knife is a very effective weapon.

-You'd be very lucky to defend against a premeditated attack from a nearby opponent with a knife using either weapon, knife or gun, without being severely injured.

 

[TeamPrecisionIT]

I'll risk a stabbing if it came down to it, but just standing there and acting defenseless because I can't draw my weapon and then pointing it downrange away from the target like the woman in yellow used in the video, is ridiculous. Sorry for the long sentence but videos like this are only good for a laugh. Seriously, look at the woman in the 'open' holster position again and tell me it isn't funny that the attacker has moved behind her and she still points the gun to her front, lol.

I'll take one hand to defend from the knife and one to pull out my gun if it came down to it.

Damian

 

[Borch]

My thoughts are this video is horrible. It shows a total lack of training in avoidance/evasion, weapon handling and shooting techniques. The "officers" never move from their stance, there's no attempt at evasion or seperation. ONe of the first things taught to CO's and LEO's is avoidance and evasion, move around, create as much space as you can to buy some time. The draw techniques they used were horrible. I don't know anyone who can't draw their weapon from a closed holster in half the time of either of the "officers". And the female, what kind of shooting stance was that for close quarters? She should have been hip shooting from both the 6 and 12 ft ranges.

All in all I would say this video is an excellent example of what not to do.

 

[strambo]

My thoughts...there is no such thing as "knife vs. gun." There is only people trying to do violence (injure) other people. The person who is better at violence will always prevail. Tools don't matter, and the more time people spend on this handgun vs. that rifle vs. that knife vs. this martial art vs. that combat sport...the more they miss the point.

Focus on how to survive violent conflicts. You survive them by being better at violence than the other guy(s). Learn what real violent conflicts are like (hint, they aren't like bar fights or movies). You can learn about them by studying violent crime and prison violence (I don't recommend learning 1st hand ). Then learn what works best. The ones doing the violence successfully, what do they do? How could they have done it better i.e. more efficiently?

I was watching a show on gangs last night. The gang that won the prison gang war attacked 1st and stabbed their opponents until they stopped twitching. The gang that lost was reactive and perpetually behind the power curve despite a 4-5 to 1 superiority in numbers. When an attempted gang killing didn't work it was because they had horrible targeting skills (great aggression though). One guy was stabbed 53 times and didn't die (he even walked away under his own power to the infirmary). Lesson: Learn anatomy, one puncture to the aorta would have finished it, it's an easy target to hit as well. Anatomy knowledge will help a good citizen survive a violent encounter (using a knife or gun) just as much as it would help a gang-banger shank someone to death before the guards break it up.

Back to the "gun vs. knife" video...the inanimate objects have no bearing on the outcome of a conflict at that range. The "knife" holder demonstrated how fast distance can be closed. Once distance is closed humans can injure each other at will with hands, feet, rocks, sticks, and yes: firearms and edged weapons. The only advantage a firearm has is range. Of course, the guy holding the gun is by no means limited to just the gun and only using it as a gun. He could certainly injure the knife holder via pistol bludgeoning or a good 'ol fashioned punch to the throat. If he was good at doing violence, he wouldn't stand still either, he'd be eager to close and take the guy out knowing he didn't have the distance he needed for the gun.


1. Avoid conflict if able...it isn't worth it for ego.
2. If you can't do #1, injure the other guy until they are no longer a threat as efficiently as possible.
3. Feel free to carry tools such as knives and/or firearms to make #2 easier (more efficient if used properly) but they aren't strictly necessary.

 

[Old Guy]

Hands

If you are facing a threat, and a hidden hand or hands is a threat, you had better move, and in the person at the boarded up window, as well as move, firearm is aimed, verbal commands are issued.

But the object of the video is to show closing distance, it did that!

 

[TAB]

I had a SD class a about 8 years ago, where they gave us a blue gun, sent us in a typical sized room ( 12x 15) An instructor on the other side of the room had a dummy knife. No one in the class even cleared leather before contact was made. It was very sobering.

 

[csmkersh]

Do some reading on Tueller's Rule. Basically, you can't draw fast enough to defend yourself against a knife/club attack if the perp is within 21 feet. Despite the possibility of being charged with brandishing in your state*, go to low ready ASAP.

Get out of the white and into the yellow zone.

*Texas allows presenting the weapon as part of self defense. See HERE

For Texas CHL Holders only

§ 9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of
force is justified when the use of force is justified by this
chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or
serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as
long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension
that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the
use of deadly force.

 

[contenderman]

Illustrating the speed of a knife attack was well done ... the rest was (at best) an illustration of poor training.

There is an old saying: "Charge a gun, retreat from a kinfe".

As long as adequate space is maintained the knife wielder can not hurt you, but the gun holder can certainly hurt him.

 

[hso]

This discussion (and video) have been addressed here many times.

Until you've actually done some force on force training where you don't know what the threat is, or even if one is coming in the particular drill, you may not grasp how little time you have to react to an attack. That means that depending solely on purchasing a firearm and carrying it to keep you alive is a mistake when the attack is unanticipated (not many criminals have the courtesy to schedule those pesky life and death encounters).

What's the solution? Training. Realistic FOF training at close range dealing with protecting yourself from knife/stick attacks.

 

[B yond]

This topic stemmed from another thread where the OP was curious about how to defend himself while temporarily residing in California and unable to carry a firearm.

One of the posts on that thread stated that a knife was often a better weapon than a gun. I started this thread to argue against that point without taking the other thread off topic.

 

[Loomis]

Knife beats bare hands.

Gun beats knife. club beats knife. Chair beats knife. monkey wrench beats knife. 9 iron beats knife.

Basically everything except nothing beats a knife.

 

[inherentical]

You should see how fast I am with my weapon already drawn.

 

[JoeSlomo]

So...

What happens when a "defender" actually MOVES a bit instead of standing still like the proverbial headlight fixated deer?

Hmmmm...

 

[TeamPrecisionIT]

What happens when you move or defend yourself? I am guessing you would stop Mr Knife with two to the chest or a good follow up to the forehead.

Damian

 

[Borch]

The purpose of movement is to create space between you and the attacker, the more space you create the more time you buy yourself to retrieve your own weapon. When Is ay move I don't mean move a BIT I mean MOVE. Big steps, move multiple feet then change direction, move laterally, create as much space as you can between yourself and the aggressor. Moving backwards is the easiest way to create space and allow more time to bring your weapon to bear, but it keeps you in line with the attacker. Lateral movements that cause the attacker to have to change his direction also cause him to slow down, thereby allowing more time to bring your own weapon into the fray. If you can move in a way that places a barrier of an obstacle in between you and your attacker this also creates time to produce your own weapon. Moving forward but at such an angle that you remian out of striking distance canbe very efefctive because now the attacker has to severely slow or even stop his momentum and turn around to attack again. Also using your non weapons hand to stiff arm the attacker and throw him off balance, if/when that is appropriate, can create on opening for you to move away and create space.

I am a corrections officer and we train on avoidance/evasion as it relates to force incidents and self defense all the time at work. Avoidance/evasion is the first thing we teach our new recruits when we train them. Now I know there are people who will say, "But, if you're concentrating on moving around and where you're going, it will take you longer to get your weapon drawn." To this I say, WRONG! If you train with your weapon and practice your draw it should be seocnd nature to you, even if you carry a level 3 retention holster, you should be able to draw with much, much less struggle than the actors in this video. I'm not saying you will beat the attacker but this video was simply unrealistic.

 

[Kenpo]

I strive for the best of both worlds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uVTPRhWdfc

 

[JERRY]

moving sideways is prefered to moving backwards when under attack by an edged weapon.

so is using your non firing hand as the sacrificial lamb to creat time and space.

the other options are to engage hand/foot to knife to creat space then draw....

there is no easy answer except to look for this type of thing and practiced edged weapon defenses.

 

[tpaw]

Here is an excerpt of an incident that happened where I worked. It was the 5th Precinct, NYPD.

When the cops responded into the basement, a berserk homeless man stepped from behind a corner and confronted the Sergeant. He was armed with what looked like a boning knife. Sergeant Johnson ordered the man to drop the knife at gunpoint. The assailant screamed and lunged at the Sergeant. Johnson emptied his revolver into the body of the vagrant as the crowd of derelicts cowered in terror. In the confined area, the other cops fired three shots. Although he was shot multiple times, the forward momentum of the attacker enabled the killer to drive the knife deep into the chest of the Sergeant. The long thin blade of the knife acted like an icepick and penetrated Johnson's heavy woolen winter blouse. The Sergeant died almost instantly. Johnson was an eleven-year veteran of the NYPD.

Even though the culprit was shot at least 9 times, he still managed to stab the Sgt. to death.

 

[Oohrah]

Both can be fatal, but the shock and tissue damage
from a slug may be quicker than a bleed out. Crictial
affected areas both are fatal ends.

 

[Zedo]

-- Indiana Jones . . .

 

[Splodge Of Doom]

I think what this kinda thing essentially demonstrates is that you have to be able to fight without a gun. Rely on a tool too much and one day it won't be available, and you're stuffed.

Not saying you need to be a master (although it helps), but at least a basic knowledge of a combat form (e.g. CQC or Krav Maga, not a sport martial art!) is necessary if you are going to be flexible enough to deal with a situation like that.

 

[Sheldon J]

So nobody teaches them to move N shoot? When confronted with a knife you must keep your distance move, shoot, avoid, standing there like a mannequin is one sure way to get killed in a confrontation.

 

[FerFAL]

Your thoughts?

How about moving away as you draw instead of acting like some robot, kicking him as he rushes in ( the way he ran a side kick would have left him flat on his back).

Using your sacrifice arm would get you cut (sometimes you just can't avoid it), but you'd sure manage to shoot him full of holes.

The attacker doesn’t look particularly big or strong, how about using a disarm technique and braking his arm/neck/ smashing his head against the floor or that nearby wall?

Just some suggestions.

FerFAL

 

[jackdanson]

This works under the assumption that the knife is already out, if the perp had a gun out already you would be in the same situation.

This is also assuming that these knife attacks are instantly fatal. Wounding someone to the point of incapacitation quickly enough that they can't draw a gun is difficult at best.

P.S. This is why I carry a tower shield everywhere I go.

 

[KBintheSLC]

I have to agree, that video shows poor technique from both the knife guy, and the "cop".

First of all, the "cop" just stood there, motionless as the attacker charged... I doubt that would happen in real life.

Second of all, if you have a large fixed-blade knife like that your best bet is to stab the throat rather than slice it. Stabbing the throat will incapacitate much faster as you can reach the spinal chord or brain stem with such a long blade. He also failed to engage his other hand... like a claw to the face to expose the throat, then a rapid stab to the artery.

Amitures on both ends.

Knife beats bare hands.

Gun beats knife. club beats knife. Chair beats knife. monkey wrench beats knife. 9 iron beats knife.

Basically everything except nothing beats a knife.

Thats only true if you don't know how to use one. A large, fixed-blade knife is a superb killing tool, and cannot be underestimated in the hands of a skilled knife fighter. I'll take a good fighting knife over a "club, chair, or monkey wrench" any day of the week.