Knife instead of gun

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I'm 19 so all I can have on me is a very bright (320 OTF lumens) Olight and a Zero Tolerance 0200. :)

Good enough for now. Especially when getting mail :eek:
 
At 3-6 feet, even Jeff Cooper said he'd rather have an axe than a .25. And he tended to be pretty pro-gun...

Seriously, the best way to find this out is to TRY this stuff; get out of the armchair and do some force on force, and it becomes REALLY obvious that a knife, close-up, is nearly an unsolvable problem for a gun, even when you do know what you're doing.

Here's a link that shows the 'right' way to handle a close-up knife with a gun:
Knife Defense with a Firearm
And even the author will tell you it's not plan A if you're at that range.

Larry
 
but a <insert name here> .25 is more effective than a knife at ranges of 3-6 feet. or inches
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I can't agree.

The .25ACP is considered to be the most anemic and inadequate handgun round devised. Even if you're dealing with a reliable .25cal (a critical caveat) firing FMJ's for any meaningul penetration the permanent wound channel made by a 3.5-4" folder is much larger than the .25cal. The ability to disable limbs is nearly infinitely superior with a 2" folder than with a .25cal. The reach to contact is about the same and thetThe ability to carry a folder is about the same.
 
I can't, either.

--

From the violent tangle, to effectively use a firearm two things are necessary: (1) controlling the opponents limb nearest the firearm to prevent fouling and (2) obtaining position to draw and use the pistol. In a dynamic struggle, that's easier said than done.

Note, distance as in separation from the opponent is not part of the equation. Because, what if you cannot?

The same is true of an edges weapon, but the position necessary to access and use knives is more forgiving, while the prospect of fouling it once in play is more daunting.
 
Thanks for the pics smince. Good to see the reality of what you may have to inflict/have inflicted upon you.
 
If you've never seen bad-really bad-knife wounds, it can be shocking what even a small knife will do. A good knifer is taught to disassemble you...

The photos above aren't even all that bad (most of them) compared to what someone with training and a plan will do.


Ick.


Larry
 
I carry a folding knife almost every time I leave my house. My classes are in a rough area (very very rough) and work has been getting a little hairy lately. I feel more confident with it on me that I could use it to my benefit (for a variety of situations). I'll never forget the professor at college that drove off two perps with his cane. Those two learned that what looks like a wooden cane, might actually be made of something heavier.
 
Neither is a great man stopper but that being said I carry a gun and a folder when I leave the house. I use the folder often but if I need to defend my LIFE you can bet the weapon I go for is my pistol. There is a reason the west was one with a firearm, not a knife hence, not bringing a knife to a gunfight.
 
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This may come across as a bit "Preachy," but it is just my opinion and some food for thought.

In most self defense situations, I think most people would choose to be armed with a gun instead of a knife, but they both have their limitations. The gun is going to give much better range. The knife is going to be more versatile.

A few people have said that can not think of a situation where they would use a knife instead of a gun, so heres a few off the top of my head:

1) You can not carry a gun. Either you're under 21, in a state or building where it is illegal to have a gun, or you're doing something (running, running a marathon, swimming, diving) where you can not practically carry a gun. Lets face it: If you are swimming laps, there really isn't a good way to have a gun on you.

2) You can not get to your gun. Maybe your situational awareness failed, maybe you saw the threat coming, and were able to get a grip on the J-Frame in your pocket, but by the time the threat was great enough to warrant drawing, it was close enough to knock the gun out of your hand, grab hold of the cylinder, block the hammer, etc... The point is, you did everything right, but you got the shorthand of the stick, and now you're wrestling over the gun, or its been kicked away from you, or it malfunctioned/ran empty. You just can not get to the gun... but you can get to that Cold Steel folder clipped in your pocket.
A variation of this would be if you can not reach the gun, because your hand/firearm/arm is pinned against something, or your hand is busy doing something else, like shoving the guy off of you. you can't reach the 1911 in a shoulder holster, but you can get to a knife.

3) Using the gun is not practical. You could be in the grappling range, there may be no way to get a shot off that will go in a safe direction. Maybe your not defending yourself from a person - perhaps a dog is latched onto your arm. If a dog bit me, and did not let go, I'd probably shoot, but I don't think its too far outside the realm of possibility to consider that the only shot you could get would go through the dog and hit you or a loved one. In that scenario, I'm going to be looking for more of a Jim Bowie solution, and less of a Bill Hickock one.

There is one edge to having a knife that a gun does not give you: It is a versatile tool. Some situations where I would much rather have a knife instead of a gun are: I'm lost in the boonies and need to make a shelter/fire. I'm in a car crash, or have stopped at one, the knife is going to be a lot better at cutting seatbelts than a gun.

I'm not suggesting that we just use the boomsticks as range toys, and walk around with fixed blades for SD. That would be silly. I see no reason why someone should not carry a knife. As some have already pointed out, they can not carry a gun, so they have a knife, because its better than nothing. If you are legally allowed to carry a gun, I'm willing to bet you can legally carry a knife too.

Instead of asking "I have a gun, so why should I carry a knife?" try asking, "What can I do with just a gun, that I can't do with a gun and a knife."

Chris "the Kayak-Man" Johnson
 
hso said:
The detailed answer is when at contact distance where you need to drive the attacker off to draw and deploy a gun and you have some training to make that effective, but the short answer is "None" for most people.

Use of deadly force in self defense is only to stop a threat of death or maiming/serious bodily injury. Knife/club/gun use in self defense is the use of deadly force. The fact that a knife or club MAY be used in a less, "less" not non, lethal way does not get away from the fact that they are lethal force defensive tools.

If you are not permitted to carry a gun, then it isn't better to carry a knife, but an option.

If you are in contact before being able to draw a gun, then drawing a knife will allow you (if you know what you're doing) to drive your attacker off and help you disable their weapon hand/arm (again, if you know what you're doing). It requires some training and even more practice with a live partner to give you the skill/confidence to attempt this, but that training and practice can pay off. Keep in mind that this is only if you are in contact and don't have the space to put a gun into use before you too are maimed or killed. Remember our sole objective is to protect our life so don't get fixated on only one defensive tool since you may not be able to put it into use before getting shot/stabbed/clubbed.

The fact is that a suitable "stick" is usually better than a knife as a self defense tool anyway.
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I think this sums it up.

Also check out tips and tactics from Kelly McCann (I was pointed to this direction for knife fighting techniques, by a fellow member)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tN9FIPC8Vu8

ps-I live in NJ and can't obtain CCW, I have a tactical folder on me at all times - it comes in handy everyday. In the event I will need to defend my life...It is why I am taking private knife fighting/disarming lessons with my MMA/kettlebell instructor.
 
I carry a SOG assisted opener under my belt buckle, easy to reach with either hand. I also carry a hickory cane or walking stick in addition to my carry firearm. I was taught to defend my personal space and at a distance the handgun, three or four feet the cane or walking stick. If I really blow it and am really stupid then the knife. I tried "sentry removal" once in the '60s and threw my edge and 1/2 EK about a dozen feet, knocked the guy down as it hit flat and not sneaky enough to get closer. I've used one but it's messy and not something I enjoyed but I carry one same as a firearm because I know I can use anything to save my hide.
 
Remember the school board shooting in FL last week, specifically the lady that tried to knock the guy's gun out of his hand with her purse?

Well, if I were to find myself in that situation, I wouldn't have a firearm on me (school property), but I would certainly have my EDC folder in my pocket.

R

Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Tapatalk
 
The only time I would use a knife is if Im some one is trying to disarm me. the Karambit in training curved blade is great for protecting yourselves from a would be disarmer. Look at our brother Air Marshal.
 
Hello friends and neighbors // Knife Instead of Gun ----In a crowd where a thru and thru or a miss would surely hit an innocent.

A knife can also be preemptive where a gun can not. (I live in a no open carry state.)

(More of an assist than instead)
If you see possible trouble comming even having a Swiss Army knife out to peel a apple, cut a string or clean your finger nails puts you in a different catagory than an unarmed individual.

A knife wielded weak hand can at the very least be used to deliver a distracting cut to the forehead, hand, leg ... giving you a chance to draw your gun.
 
Are some people really arguing that you would PREFER a knife in a situation that you CAN"T get to gun??? That doesn't make sense. Thats not what preference means folks.
 
I would prefer to carry a knife legally, as opposed to carrying a gun illegally. Yes, that's preference; many would rather carry the gun.

R

Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Tapatalk
 
OK, I'll play: if you can't get to your gun, what would you prefer to have?
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It isn't about "playing", why do we have to do this everytime?? PREFERENCE means that you PREFER it over the gun or that you choose it INSTEAD of the gun. NOT that the gun isn't available and its the choice you are left with. That isn't what preference means. The statement you are making is that in the absence of a gunyou would prefer a knife to nothing or something other weapon. That doesn't do anything to prove a point in a knife vs gun argument. Its an immature tactic to make a second argument prove your first argument when it does no such thing.

I'll try to break this down simply. Two people are arguing whether the sky is blue or yellow. The guys who thinks the sky is yellow say, "grass is green right?". He is trying to get you to agree the point that grass is green so you will agree with his point that the sky is yellow even though the color of the grass has nothing to do with the color of the sky. Similarly, guys who are arguing for the knife over a gun are arguing that since you would prefer a knife to bare hands or nothing, you must prefer a knife over a gun. Another example is the statement that a knife cuts seatbelts better. No kidding, a knife is better for cutting that a gun? The argument that a knife is better for cutting seatbelts or anything else is another attempt to prove A or B by proving C. If you try a set of shears and it cuts seatbelts even better than the knife is it a better defensive weapon? No, it doesn't prove anything. If you are comparing a knife to a gun then the cutting ability of the two isn't really a very good method of comparison. I understand it was meant to show the versatility of the knife versus the gun which is exactly why a large number of us carry both. Knives are handy for cutting and I carry mine on my off side so if I wasn't able to reach my weapon I could use my knife. That doesn't mean I PREFER it as the gun would still be my first choice and the knife is a backup.

I will address one valid argument I read.
3) Using the gun is not practical. You could be in the grappling range, there may be no way to get a shot off that will go in a safe direction. Maybe your not defending yourself from a person - perhaps a dog is latched onto your arm. If a dog bit me, and did not let go, I'd probably shoot, but I don't think its too far outside the realm of possibility to consider that the only shot you could get would go through the dog and hit you or a loved one. In that scenario, I'm going to be looking for more of a Jim Bowie solution, and less of a Bill Hickock one.
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At least the argument is on topic but I still have to disagree with it. At close range is the only time you can absolutely choose a shot in a safe direction. If I was within arms length of my attacker I can hold the weapon low and shoot upwards into my target or pointed downwards into my target. Your choices are much more limited outside of arms length. If attacked by a dog I would likely be shooting downward into the dog and the ground the only way I would hit a loved one is if they were under the dog which should be apparent. If the threat is away from you your chances of hitting something unintended should be higher, not lesser. It may be valid that the attacker has your right arm pinned and you are unable to draw. In that case a knife on the off hand side may be a life saver but I can't imagine having a gun available and able to use it but I CHOOSE to use the knife instead to defend myself. Train more with your weapon and learn its limits and you might not be so quick to give up on it. At close range a firearm can pulverize a brain, sever a brain stem or spinal chord, puncture the heart and/or lungs, smash a pelvis or a femur. It is much more capable of causing severe traumatic injury than a small knife. Small knives in the hands of a trained person can cause some pretty nasty wounds but excluding a few arteries near the skin's surface it just isn't as capable of immediate incapacitation as a firearm. I have extensive martial arts and firearms training and I've worked in prisons for the last 15 years. I have seen many victims of knife attacks some of which were from multiple attackers. There is just no way a small knife has the immediate lethality of a firearm.

Another argument involves the whole idea of a "trained knife fighter". While a trained knife fighter is much more capable with his weapon it only sways the argument if you are comparing him against an untrained person with a firearm. Once again, that is a faulty argument because it introduces the abilities of the USER in a discussion about the ability of the tool. The only way that argument would be valid is if you assume it is easier to train to a high level of proficiency with the knife than it is the firearm. It takes much more strength, coordination, and dexterity to utilize the knife than the firearm in my experience. I fyou compare the trained knife fighter vs an equally proficient shooter, the argument would still be a matter of which tool is better so the matter of training is moot.

Know I've "played" enough and I've said my piece. This is NOT an attempt at further play. I believe a good knife is part of your defensive package and if you can carry both you should do so. I believe that you should train to be proficient with what you carry. No one here is going to convince me to carry two knives instead of a knife and a firearm so...............
 
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Are some people really arguing that you would PREFER a knife in a situation that you CAN"T get to gun??? That doesn't make sense. Thats not what preference means folks.
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Not exactly, if I was at contact distance, I would prefer to utilize a knife in that situation...because it would be more efficient than trying to bring a gun into play. That would be in preference to going hand-to-hand without a knife, as I know I can cut with more effect than punch. Distance is your friend with a gun. When you don't have distance on your side, the blade is more effective.

Are you so bonded to the effectiveness of a gun that it has blinded you to alternative weapons as circumstances change?

If I had the distance to use a cane, but not to utilize a gun, I'd prefer a cane to a knife
 
As my karate instructor in high school told me, "If you're ever in a street fight, forget the karate and find a weapon, any weapon."
 
Not exactly, if I was at contact distance, I would prefer to utilize a knife in that situation...because it would be more efficient than trying to bring a gun into play. That would be in preference to going hand-to-hand without a knife, as I know I can cut with more effect than punch. Distance is your friend with a gun. When you don't have distance on your side, the blade is more effective.

Are you so bonded to the effectiveness of a gun that it has blinded you to alternative weapons as circumstances change?
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I'm at a loss as to why this is so difficult to understand. :confused:
 
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