Knife VS GUN, inside 21 feet, Instructor Zero and Doug Meraidia

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FWIW, Dennis Tueller (creator of the Tueller Drill) absolutely hates it being called "The 21 Foot Rule", but the description is so prevalent that he knows it can't be stopped.
(From a video interview with him on one of the many DVDs I was sent when joining ACLDN.)

Yep. I've listened to him discuss it a couple of times in a couple of classes (he works for Glock for the last several years), and he never expected that answering a random question (how close is too close for a knife?) for the cadets in an academy class he was teaching so many years ago would take on a life of its own.

As I recall, he also mentioned that if doing it again, he'd probably increase the distance. He used cadets in his class to develop the "average" time for that original drill, and their physical abilities varied.
 
Video was tedious (albeit unsurprising for a brainstorming/explanation session).

Anyway ...

When it comes to defending against blades, distance is your friend. Getting distance. Keeping distance. Using that distance to create time to act. Keeping that distance until your action(s) can achieve their purpose and the threat is over.

I've been threatened by knives a handful of times (comes with the job), but the only time someone seriously tried to kill me with a knife occurred before I was a cop. He attempted to gut me with a large kitchen boning-type fixed blade. At that time my 10-odd years of martial arts training enabled me to evade the thrust blade and put some limited distance between us (we were inside a commercial building, and my movement options were severely restricted). I was able to grab a maglite in one hand and something else in the other hand, at which point the attacker decided to leave.
 
Video was tedious (albeit unsurprising for a brainstorming/explanation session).

Anyway ...

When it comes to defending against blades, distance is your friend. Getting distance. Keeping distance. Using that distance to create time to act. Keeping that distance until your action(s) can achieve their purpose and the threat is over.

I've been threatened by knives a handful of times (comes with the job), but the only time someone seriously tried to kill me with a knife occurred before I was a cop. He attempted to gut me with a large kitchen boning-type fixed blade. At that time my 10-odd years of martial arts training enabled me to evade the thrust blade and put some limited distance between us (we were inside a commercial building, and my movement options were severely restricted). I was able to grab a maglite in one hand and something else in the other hand, at which point the attacker decided to leave.

TOTALLY AGREE, and I put 26 years on the job and also had "experiences" with lots of blades.

Hope your still keeping safe and as to distance = hell yes.
 
TOTALLY AGREE, and I put 26 years on the job and also had "experiences" with lots of blades.

Hope your still keeping safe and as to distance = hell yes.

Sometimes it's the simple things that provide the most workable answers. ;)

Still working to try and stay safe everyday. It tends to be easier now that trouble has to work to find me, instead of me working to find it. :)
 
Amen.... that might be one of the reasons that after a career in law enforcement I became a full time fishing guide - mostly in the salt or brackish portions of the Everglades... I'd rather keep a close eye on critters than humans - any day....
 
Both videos are good examples- from different points of view. The first video from two experts at what they do- what about us Joe Schmoes?
I am an armed and aware citizen who trains to the best of my ability. I try to learn everyday but when the reality of the matter is that if someone wants to stab me- or otherwise, I doubt I would have the mental wherewith all to prevent/stop it in that split second. Maybe limit how many times I get stabbed? But that is too late- One knife wound is one too many for me.
Like in the first video the knife guy says that you wont see his knife and probably not realize you were stabbed right away.
What I mean is I am walking down the street and someone targets me from behind- or even in front and approach with no visible signs of attack...it is too late. If they were yelling and screaming with the knife over their head in the attack position- that would be different- at least in thought process time. What can you do? Seriously? I can't walk around with my hand on my gun or my gun at the low ready. Sadly this training to me only shows how vulnerable we can be at times and don't even realize it. The bad guys certainly have the advantage in this type of situation.
Just my .02
 
Here is an upsetting experience. My very close friend, a Detective on the 77 precinct, had started his career as a Beat Cop in Harlem NY. He got a Domestic disturnance call one day, and responded with his partner. Upon entry a very large woman "over 350 Lbs" instantlly charged them, "at the entrance" of the door, holding a foot long Butcher knife, in the high stabbing position, screaming that she was going to kill them. She charged at them, about 20 feet or less. At the time they were still using 38 specials, and my buddy emptied the gun into her, dropping her as she fell on him. There was no choice, walking in cold like that to a situation which you have no control or time to even speak. He said , "George, I had no choice, I just reacted, and she almost got me". It made the papers,some of you guys fom the 77, 75, 72 may still remember Howie, he seemed to be in the newspaper every month for something, and made Ist grade faster than anyone ever had before. But there is your example of how dangerous a knife can be.
He got 6 months of desk duty after that one.Cleared of any wrong doing. Working Bklym during the "Crack" days was very dangerous and totally wacked. People thought they were invincable and thought nothing about shooting or stabblig cops, or walking naked with a sword down the middle of the street. Ahh the good old days. I remember a guy I actually knew who was arrested for running through his lobby, of an upscale building, with one of his many, Samuri Swords, killing imagiary ninjas. Next stop Rikers Island. You don't have to make stories up, just a normal day.
 
Just a thought as to how serious this may become very soon. This week I saw that the ANTIFA nuts are selling small concealable knives. This means the odds of being attacked by these loons is much greater if you happen to be near one of the protests, live in a city, or are near a college campus.

I've also heard some of them calling for attacking those they disagree with. So while no reports of these happening yet, as mentioned, situational awareness and distance from strangers is ones best defense. Better to be extra careful then dead.

Oh and in my knife fighting training we were taught how to defend against various attacks. But we're also taught that if attacked by someone with a knife that you were very likely to be cut. The goal was to disarm them as quickly as possible, not get cut if possible, or to limit the damage you receive.

Finally, the laws aren't the same in all places but my understanding is that when attacked with a deadly weapon, the responsibility of the defender is much less. In other words you have to exercise less effort to harm your attacker. You still can't murder someone but have a bit more leeway.

I'm not a lawyer, didn't stay in a Holiday Inn so take what I've shared as simply my opinion not legal advice expertise or more than Internet BS
 
This is one of the sad truths about people adopting drills without truly understanding them. When you add the understanding that knife attacks usually don't start from that far out (as pointed out in the clip), you really begin to understand why it isn't really a "21 Foot Rule." The point of the drill was to demonstrate that within 21 feet, you really need skills other than your firearm.

YES!

I've done this with LE and they're almost always shocked at the distance that a little round guy with a knife can close on them before they can draw from a duty holster. No one backs in a straight line under stress as quickly as even a slow attacker can charge in, move while assessing and move off the straight line of your attacker, put anything between you and the knife that the attacker has to go over or around to change the attacker's momentum and give you a fraction of a second more to assess, commit and act.


If you really have an understanding of movement and close quarter fighting, going to the ground makes much more sense than moving laterally (next best) or running away ( better than standing still). The issue with going to the ground is that you are limited by the amount of open space around you

Maybe

The one benefit of going to the ground is to keep the attacker off of your arms, head, neck and torso using your feet/legs while you shoot from the ground. The big problem with this as we demonstrated in more than one class that taught going to your back and trying to defend using the "bicycle" technique is that a committed attacker will just dive in and crash onto you with knife in hand. Even I was usually overcome by students that were committed to diving in and crashing onto me and pumping the knife while I defended from the ground. Movement, obstacles and knowing how to defend from a knife while you're making space to draw are the responses to a knife attack I recommend.

An important take away here is that the gun is not a magic talisman or a death ray and without some non firearm defensive training you may not even get the chance to draw.
 
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Well, "going to the ground" not only limits your ability to create distance, but it makes you a stationary target, as well as limits the directions in which you can act to effectively defend yourself. More than one attacker is a lot more problematic.

Expecting that attacks by people using edged tools/blades (or perforating tools/weapons) may occur from a distance as generous as "21 feet", and with "warning", and planning a defense around that expectation, might not be as realistic as some folks might wish to think.

It's not exactly uncommon to hear victims surviving vicious attacks by people with blades (or box cutters, etc) report that they didn't even know their attacker was holding such a weapon (or tool), and they didn't even realize they'd been cut (slashed, stabbed, etc) until moments after the first injury had occurred, if not longer.

Yes, there may indeed be instances when the time it takes "reaching" for a handgun may involve a longer interval than reaching to block, deflect or otherwise defend against an attack. Sure, some training may involve striking/blocking with one hand while reaching to access a holstered weapon with the other, but situational circumstance and reaction time may not make this as simple a thing in actuality as it may be carefully choreographed to occur and appear in some training scenarios and drills.

This is one of those TANSTAAFL things in real life. If physical condition and overall health permit participating in some self defense training, it may help some people learn to better understand how some "common" perceptions may be lacking when it comes to what can happen in reality.

An important take away here is that the gun is not a magic talisman or a death ray and without some non firearm defensive training you may not even get the chance to draw.

Yep.
 
I was able to grab a maglite in one hand and something else in the other hand, at which point the attacker decided to leave.

Improvised sword and shield. Can be a chair and a wood table leg or a book and lamp or mop handle and pale. Anything to deflect the blade and deliver a blow.

Deaf
 
Improvised sword and shield. Can be a chair and a wood table leg or a book and lamp or mop handle and pale. Anything to deflect the blade and deliver a blow.

Deaf

One of the old-style, small MACE pocket cans in one hand (I was licensed back in those days), to put out a distraction to make him blink, while I applied the MagLite as necessary. If I'd have had a stool or chair at hand, it would've been put to expedient use. My chosen position (after evading the blade) allowed me to mostly conceal both until he'd be close enough to matter. Damned inconvenient spot to be caught in that situation.
 
One of the old-style, small MACE pocket cans in one hand (I was licensed back in those days), to put out a distraction to make him blink, while I applied the MagLite as necessary. If I'd have had a stool or chair at hand, it would've been put to expedient use. My chosen position (after evading the blade) allowed me to mostly conceal both until he'd be close enough to matter. Damned inconvenient spot to be caught in that situation.

Ok, sword and short sword! That will work to. What I would hate to do is meet them bare handed. Rather have SOMETHING in my hands, even if it's just a rock.

Deaf
 
It's not exactly uncommon to hear victims surviving vicious attacks by people with blades (or box cutters, etc) report that they didn't even know their attacker was holding such a weapon (or tool), and they didn't even realize they'd been cut (slashed, stabbed, etc) until moments after the first injury had occurred, if not longer.
Bolded mine.

Many of the times I've interviewed officers who've responded to/intervened in situations involving edged/stabbing weapons with an assaulter/victim or mutual combatants, they stated that at first they didn't even see the weapon(s), they just thought strikes by open or closed hands were being thrown ...

Food for thought. Often the focus is on the person, not the hands or what's in the hand(s)...
 
I have survived two knife attacks when I was younger. One I was lucky and the jerk was waving it around trying to impress his friends. For a second he looked at his friends and smiled. Bad move on his part. It was probably more of a threat display than anything else. I could not run away because of where I was at. Second was more like the video.
Guy came running at me from behind. I heard him and turned. All I could do was jump back a bit. Knife went in below my belly button. Because I pulled back it didn't go in deep that's all that saved me. Right away I went on the offense. Still have a nice scar from them sewing me up. Had I not heard him I wouldn't be here. I am amazed by all the b.s. you see some instructors teaching their students. Or on some video's.
Most of the "knife defense" training where the guy steps out and politely holds is knife hand out for you and the lock it, arm bar you, or whatever is b.s.. Like the knife instructor in the video pointed out if someone is going to stab you they are going to try to get close. They will hide the blade. And when your attacked it will be a wild frenzy of multiple stabs and slashes. As someone wise once pointed out "most knife attacks are knife assassinations". And the attack set ups in a lot of Dojo's , or Dojang's the person only attacks with the knife. No in reality they are probably going to be grabbing you with the other arm, hitting with it, kicking, whatever.
You are going to have to probably start with empty hands. Don't just stand there. Get off the x. Get something between you and them. Pick up anything you can as a weapon. A knife attacks is a deadly force situation. Up close a knife is I would dare say equal to a gun. Simple test. Put on some gear to protect yourself. Give someone a red magic marker and tell them to really go at you. You may "get them". But you will probably find yourself covered in multiple red dots and slashes. All I am saying is the famous "you brought a knife to a gunfight" isn't what it seems. A knife is not a ballistic weapon like a club. It only takes a short flick or jab to put you in a whole lot of hurt.
Best thing to do is be aware of what's going on around you. If you can see it you can probably stop it. If it's a sneak attack it is really hard to defend. Your starting way behind the OODA loop. Get off the x as fast as you can while drawing your gun. If you can get something between you. Most people stabbed unless it is in somewhere like the eye don't know know they've been stabbed. The think they've been punched. Stay alert, watch the hands, don't let them get too close. Keep a gap if you can. Distance is safety. And God help you if you really have to go at it with a bladed opponent. Few things prepare you for the speed and the viciousness of such an attack. Get some gear, a blue gun (or airsoft), and a plastic knife, with a partner. At best you'll survive a percentage of times. The more you train the better you percentages. But know how difficult it is to really defend against a blade. Once on top of you a blade is at least the equal of a gun. And as someone said. Unless you get a good head shot in. They might just keep doing what they were doing before you shot them. At least for awhile. Not good.
 
Oh my heavens! How do I know if the assailant is within 21 feet of me so that I should go for my knife or at 22 feet so I should go for my gun? This sort of setting of "absolute" distances does nothing more than prepare the untrained to get killed.
 
I have survived two knife attacks when I was younger. One I was lucky and the jerk was waving it around trying to impress his friends. For a second he looked at his friends and smiled. Bad move on his part. It was probably more of a threat display than anything else. I could not run away because of where I was at. Second was more like the video.
Guy came running at me from behind. I heard him and turned. All I could do was jump back a bit. Knife went in below my belly button. Because I pulled back it didn't go in deep that's all that saved me. Right away I went on the offense. Still have a nice scar from them sewing me up. Had I not heard him I wouldn't be here. I am amazed by all the b.s. you see some instructors teaching their students. Or on some video's.
Most of the "knife defense" training where the guy steps out and politely holds is knife hand out for you and the lock it, arm bar you, or whatever is b.s.. Like the knife instructor in the video pointed out if someone is going to stab you they are going to try to get close. They will hide the blade. And when your attacked it will be a wild frenzy of multiple stabs and slashes. As someone wise once pointed out "most knife attacks are knife assassinations". And the attack set ups in a lot of Dojo's , or Dojang's the person only attacks with the knife. No in reality they are probably going to be grabbing you with the other arm, hitting with it, kicking, whatever.
You are going to have to probably start with empty hands. Don't just stand there. Get off the x. Get something between you and them. Pick up anything you can as a weapon. A knife attacks is a deadly force situation. Up close a knife is I would dare say equal to a gun. Simple test. Put on some gear to protect yourself. Give someone a red magic marker and tell them to really go at you. You may "get them". But you will probably find yourself covered in multiple red dots and slashes. All I am saying is the famous "you brought a knife to a gunfight" isn't what it seems. A knife is not a ballistic weapon like a club. It only takes a short flick or jab to put you in a whole lot of hurt.
Best thing to do is be aware of what's going on around you. If you can see it you can probably stop it. If it's a sneak attack it is really hard to defend. Your starting way behind the OODA loop. Get off the x as fast as you can while drawing your gun. If you can get something between you. Most people stabbed unless it is in somewhere like the eye don't know know they've been stabbed. The think they've been punched. Stay alert, watch the hands, don't let them get too close. Keep a gap if you can. Distance is safety. And God help you if you really have to go at it with a bladed opponent. Few things prepare you for the speed and the viciousness of such an attack. Get some gear, a blue gun (or airsoft), and a plastic knife, with a partner. At best you'll survive a percentage of times. The more you train the better you percentages. But know how difficult it is to really defend against a blade. Once on top of you a blade is at least the equal of a gun. And as someone said. Unless you get a good head shot in. They might just keep doing what they were doing before you shot them. At least for awhile. Not good.

And yet through all of this, you don't mention the distance from the attacker when the confrontation began. We are talking about the demaracation between using a gun at 21 feet (i.e. 7 meters).
 
Like I said earlier, the 21 ft rule is a 'guesstimate'.

Some people may be faster, some slower. Some may have real good holster setups, some just poorly setup (thus slow.) Some can run fast, some cannot.

It's a guesstimate, and that is all.

Deaf
 
The key words are 'can win'. If the gun welder has a quick holster and is well trained to shoot either hip or retention, the '21' foot rule shrinks. If the knife welder cannot move fast, the '21' foot rule shrinks.

Not to mention, if you take one step backwards you can turn 21 feet into 24 feet, take two and it turned into 27.

Ever tried to chase a kid around a car? Even if you are faster it takes a long time to get to them.
 
And to demonstrate that a person with a knife does pose a deadly threat to a person armed with a gun even well beyond arms reach.

And.. "They" whomever "they" are.... Never bring a knife to a gun fight.
And "they" say not to "engage" your assailant outside 21 feet..??
Because the prosecutor will claim you were not in "imminent" danger.

News flash.. If I'm in that position at (insert your number of feet here)
The Gold Dots will be flying..

Rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6.. Just sayin'
 
Thing about the 21 foot rule. If you have a knife and your opponent has a gun, how close does the attacker have to be to put you in danger? Bet it's a lot farther than 21 ft. And yep, if you are on the other side of a car I suspect the knife is not so hot but the gun is still a big problem.

Deaf
 
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