"Knock" warrant, cop shot dead

[bad_dad_brad]

I am very sorry for the loss of a peace officer, and so very sorry for his family. It is a terrible thing. One time I had a deputy sheriff tell me, that serving warrants was one of the most dangerous things an officer has to do.

That said, let me relate a true story:

One of my sons who at the time lived at home then subsequently moved out, had gotten a DUI. A nice kid, but a knuckle head, and he forgot his court date.

Not knowing this, several days later, I was sitting in my back room. I thought I heard the door bell up front. It did not ring again. Then I heard a pounding on my back window and heard the shout "THERE IS A LIGHT ON!" Again a pounding. Scared the sh*t out of me and I grabbed my Glock.

Quietly with stealth I approached my front door and saw THREE city police outside in my front yard talking in their tactical walky talkies. Young guys. I wisely put the pistol aside, opened the door, and calmly asked them what they wanted. The confusion understood, I told them where my son now lived.

But, Gee Whiz folks, that pounding on the window? Un-called for. Of course if I had panicked, and let off a round (which I would never do - but others might) I would be in jail today.

It may be dangerous to serve warrants, but it is also dangerous to pound on people's back windows and scream "THERE IS A LIGHT ON!"

 

[S_O_Laban]

The shoulder wound being fatal is the only thing that susprised me about this story. I am certainly not a Doctor but I'm guessing he was standing sideways in the doorway and the round penetrated on in to his torso?

What is the proper way to serve such a warrant?

 

[Daniel T]

From Matt G.:
Be it a warrant for felony Possession With Intent To Distribute or a warrant for No Bread In The Bread Box, it was a warrant being served in good faith. Disagree with the law? Fine. Disagree with past tactics? Fine.

So what if it was a warrant for felony Possesion of an Assault Weapon?

Molon Labe, no?

 

[Dorrin79]

Let's not forget about our individual responsibility, here, okay?

Matt - you are correct. I was not offering an excuse for the murderer's actions, which were unjustifiable.

However, it is unlikely that the various ingredients resulting in the murder of a police officer would have happened in this case if not for the Wo(S)D.

That was my point in the original, sorry if it was somewhat muddled.

 

[brownie0486]

Some of the people here think it may be acceptable to put a round through the door upon a knock/banging on it by unidentified/unknown people?

If it is a no knock warrant, they won't be knocking. If it a standard warrant they will of course knock and announce their presence as it should be.

Under no circumstances would anyone ever have enough just cause to put a round or two through the door at unidentified individuals outside.

A mob outside your home threatening your family and self still would not become justifiable to put rounds through the door at them.

Home invasion? Home invaders, if they knock won't let you know their intent until you open the door or they will just break it down to enter.

Someone breaking down the front door at any hour would not be reason enough to blast through the door. Course, if you are the panicky type with a quick trigger finger you may, but then you could/possibly would be charged

Until they gain entry, it isn't an invasion, only an attempt at unlawful entry, as in B+E. If you have a gun in your hand at the door, I would presume you would be letting them know you are armed inside and asking/ordering them to cease and desist their actions lest they want to face the weapon upon entry.

I guess the question comes down to

Are you ever prudent/lawful in firing at someone through the door for any reason if all they are doing is attempting entry and not shooting into the home from outside themselves?

Brownie

 

[RustyHammer]

Crash, Bang, Boom ... which came first?

 

[rock jock]

Another senseless, useless casualty in the WO(S)D.

Gosh, w/o drug laws, I'm sure that murderer would be a productive member of society. Dang those laws for making him kill a police officer.

 

[williamcrane]

Police shooting

In Pennsylvania it would not be self defense to shoot a police officer in the performance of his duties, even if he broke into you house. It's one of the exceptions in Section 5 of the Pa Criminal code regarding Justification for use of legal force.

Of course, if they didn't identify themselves as poice officers and you couldn't see badges, etc, I'm not sure where you stand. Have your gun savvy lawyer on speed dial.

 

[brownie0486]

RustyHammer :

Not sure the jury would be wondering / pondering that question in reality.

If it happened in any order, you still shot a cop.

On the other hand, lets look at this as well:
You find anyone in your home, do you have the right to shoot them if they are not an immediate threat to your person?

Mere presence in your house doesn't mean you can blast away. You still need the elements of self defense present to use deadly force.

Now back to your question. In my state you do NOT have the right to kill another in the protection of property. If an unarmed intruder breaks down your door, and you have the means to defend yourself with a gun, you will probably still need to articulate they were an immediate threat to your person, and that will require more than mere presence in most circumstances.

Brownie

 

[Orthonym]

Too Many Excuses for Warrants

I believe that up until about 1760 or so, search warrants for anything other than stolen goods did not exist. I think it was better that way.

 

[ojibweindian]

Ya know what brownie? where I live, if a stranger is in my house in the middle of the night, it is presumed he is up to no good and is fair game.

If someone is beating on my door in the middle of the night, trying to get in, and he does not identify himself and state his business, he's fair game. Don't like it? Don't try busting into my house without an invite at 0200.

 

[brownie0486]

ojibweindian :

So your drunk neighbor can't get into your house at 2 am with his keys [ he thinks it's his house ], he says to hell with this [ in a drunken stupor ] and breaks the window and climbs in.

You hear the breaking glass, grab the heater and run downstairs where you see a silhouette of a man standing in your livingroom. You BLAST him, after all, he's fair game right?

You are wrong sir, he's not fair game for killing until he presents a lethal threat to you and meets the three criteria for self defense. Course the good old boys down south may look the other way, but I doubt it. Shooting someone on a presumption is not good advice or theory.

Presumed up to no good is not reason to kill another sir. And if he is beating on your door, what, you shoot through the door as you don't know who he is and he didn't ID himself?

OUCHHHH----------

The LE's may just think differently when you have shot the neighbor. Telling the judge he was fair game might just get you a few years to think about what you are saying here.

Brownie

 

[Duncan Idaho]

Mere presence in your house doesn't mean you can blast away. You still need the elements of self defense present to use deadly force.

Sorry brownie0486, it all depends on where the person lives. In WA state where I live, it is perfectly justifiable to open fire on an intruder in one's home.

OTOH if the person opening fire on the "intruder" (i.e. a police officer) is the object of a lawful search/arrest warrant, they would then find themselves indicted for murder.

As for the drunk neighbor, too bad for him. Drunk and stupid is sometimes fatal.

 

[ojibweindian]

yep.

yep.

The way it works in my neck of the woods is simple. If you're breaking into someone's house, you're presumed to be dangerous. If you're smashing through a door or window to get into the house in the wee hours of the morning, neighbor or whatever, you run the risk of developing leaks.

If you don't like it, don't move here.

 

[TheeBadOne]

I guess some think it's more than ok to shoot the drunk neighbor, as it's a consequence of being drunk, but God forbid that a cop might arrest that same drunk for DUI if behind the wheel and he loose his license...(according to some people here too)

 

[ojibweindian]

Not according to me.

And if the drunk neighbor properly identifies himself while trying to force his way into my house at 0200, I would not shoot.

 

[JShirley]

TBO,

Like some here, I'm a little curious as to your motivation for posting this? Is it to generate discussion on the merits of knock vs no-knock warrant service? Is it to point out that police officers sometimes have a dangerous occupation? Is it to show us that criminals break the law? Is it because you knew this person, and there is some connection he had with our current date, that compels you to bring him back to our attention? Is it to let us know that another of the brotherhood of man has left us (albeit, months ago)? Inquiring minds want to know.

Thanks in advance,

John

 

[brownie0486]

So you would ask the person to ID who he was in the shadows in your livingroom at 2am before filling him full of holes? In the scenario given, he is already in the house having broken the window and entered and you grabbed Roscoe to ventilate whoever entered?

If he wasn't the neighbor, he get drilled immediately? No need to determine any further as long as it wasn't the neighbors?

So you would shoot first and ask questions later? Or as you just stated where you ask who they were and then decide to blast em?

Do you think it is reasonable the drunk neighbor would be declaring who he was as he entered the house? Oh, I get it--

The drunk comes through the window and yells to the wife, it's only my dumb ??? honey, I'm drunk, get up and berate me before I pass out here.

Presumption of dangerousness is not just cause for filling another with holes. If that were the case, the sh$$%head who barricaded himself on the warrant would thoroughly expect they were going to just kill him on some type of presumption? Don't think many folks here would appreciate the cops doing that, yet you can state thats your position?

Brownie

 

[ojibweindian]

Brownie

It's really quite simple; don't go busting into other people's houses in the wee hours of the morning if you don't want to run the risk of getting shot. My neighbors are the same way. I would not dare go into their house, uninvited, in the early hours of the morning. To do so would run me a serious risk of injury.

My neighbors will always tell me who they are when knocking on the door at 0200. I do the same.

If my neighbor is drunk at 0200 in the morning, then most likely I am there with him. Regardless, he has enough sense to knock before "entering", as do I.

That's the way it is here. If you don't like it, tough. You don't have to visit.

 

[Byron Quick]

brownie,

You are stating the law as it is in the jurisdictions familiar to you. In Georgia, if you forcibly enter a residence in which you do not reside, no other justification for lethal force is required. The intruder does not need to be armed nor does the resident need to be in fear of his life.

In South Carolina, the Attorney General has directed that ALL such cases be sent to his office for determination...he has indicated that in all cases of forcible entry where the intruder is killed that he will decline to prosecute.

 

[Cosmoline]

There's no way I'd just blow holes through a closed door unless the zombies were rising from the grave and the voice on the other side was demanding "brains!" It's EXTREMELY reckless even in the best case scenario.

 

[brownie0486]

And would the neighbor be knocking if he thought it was his own home as in the scenario?

The laws are different from state to state, of course, does that still give you the right to blast anyone in your home uninvited if they are not threatening you with death by some means readily available to them at that moment?

It might legally in that state, but I'm not so sure it would be justified to kill another for being in your home uninvited. Hell, if thats the case maybe I can move there, get my ex to visit and then plug her as an uninvited guest/intruder. Makes no sense at all, even if the AG/DA thinks so.

Brownie

 

[Sindawe]

It is also that way here in Colorado

An intruder in a home, having gained entrance via B&E is presumed to be intent on harm to the owner/occupant and deadly force may be used to repel intruder and defend oneself from unjury.

Intruder turns out to be the drunken neighbor? Darn. Its a shame the person was too intoxicated to know where there were, but those are the risk one takes when crawling into windows/breaking open doors at night while intoxicated.

Brownie: The circumstance you describe have indeed happend here in Colorado. Shortly after the "Make my day law" was passed and in effect, a mans ex wife showed up on his door step unannounced. He shot and killer her (and her male companion IIRC). Case was dismissed since his lawer successfully argued that the shooter was in fear for his life, and the ex-wife and companion were on his property, the shooting was justified. This was in the mid 1980s, so my details are fuzzy.

I find it baffling that some States require a home occupant to retreat as far as possible, or to be sure that an uninvited 'guest' is a deadly threat before using force to repel intruder.

 

[ojibweindian]

Brownie

I will not take chances with the lives of my family. If someone's trying to get into the house in the wee hours of the morning, he/she had better ID him/herself pretty damn quick, or I will assume they're hostile. I will not chance it. It could be a drunk, it could be a cop, or it could be a few thugs wanting to waste my wife and kids.

Being out in the boonies, it takes 45 minutes for the county Sheriff's office to send a deputy out to my place. Quite a bit can happen in that period of time.

 

[brownie0486]

ojibweindian: Agreed, sometimes I forget we have a populace that lives in remote rural areas.

I actually came from such a place as a kid, and forget ocassionally. Been working the streets too long and need to get back to those days. You are fortunate.

Brownie