Lasers on your CCW?

[orionengnr]

I am only going to give you my opinion, which is worth exactly what you paid for it.

For me, the greatest value of the laser is in training for point shooting. I only have one laser-equipped 1911, and I don't carry it frequently.

But a few minutes of "look at something across the room, point the 1911 at it, then activate the laser to see how close my initiial pointing was..." even once a month, confirms my POA.

Taking it to the range about 4x per year validates the process.

 

[SwampWolf]

I have mixed feelings about laser sights being used on pistols employed for self-defense. Imo, the biggest drawback to lasers is that the shooter is focusing on the target instead of his sights, the very opposite of adhering to accurate shooting fundamentals. If proper training isn't exercised, over time the shooter may fall into the trap of looking at the target instead of his sights when shooting a gun with conventional irons.

Another potential pitfall in terms of having the appropriate mind-set when it comes to using a firearm equipped with a laser for self-defense is the foolish notion that someone hell-bent on killing you is automatically going to be deterred from his odious mission the moment he spots the little red light at the end of your pistol. Don't count on it! Worse yet is the idea that your bad guy target is going to give up the fight once he sees the red dot bouncing around on his chest. I've had the unpleasant experiences of having to point a gun at felons during the course of my thirty year le career and I have never once observed a bad guy searching his chest area when someone has a gun trained on him. Nor have any of the many officers I've worked with over the years reported having a miscreant look at his chest while a gun was being pointed at him. Think about it: would you?

On the other hand, there are many self-defense scenarios where a laser-equipped handgun would not only be helpful but would be indispensable in a gun fight. Several posters have referenced such situations, most of which occur in low light environs; the very circumstance when a gun fight is most likely to happen. I look at it this way: nothing says you have to rely on a laser. If the situation is best addressed with conventional irons, well, you've got 'em on the gun already; have at it.

Concerning the worry that a battery could expire at the worst possible moment, well, you still have those trusty iron sights on board. Use 'em! I'm also an advocate of having night sights on a pistol, in addition to a laser sight.

Finally, laser sights do make for a good training tool and they can be "another tool in the bag". However, the proper training for using conventional sights should absolutely precede any drill regimen for employing a laser. A shooter should be intimately acquainted with and demonstrably proficient with iron sights before even thinking about relying on a laser sight for self-defense purposes, no matter how limited the role a laser might play is envisioned. First things first.

 

[Manco]

I have mixed feelings about laser sights being used on pistols employed for self-defense. Imo, the biggest drawback to lasers is that the shooter is focusing on the target instead of his sights, the very opposite of adhering to accurate shooting fundamentals. If proper training isn't exercised, over time the shooter may fall into the trap of looking at the target instead of his sights when shooting a gun with conventional irons.

That's fine for aiming with iron sights, but when fighting for one's life I think that it is crucial to keep one's attention on the target as well as one's surroundings in case there are obstacles, bystanders, cover, concealment, or other targets. Taking one's focus beyond the front sight can be helpful or even necessary to maintain maximum situational awareness. At common defensive combat ranges, I'm always focused on the target, even when I use iron sights. At long range where greater precision is required, I would focus on the front sight as usual. And at really close range, I just aim along the gun and shoot--a more directed form of point-shooting. A laser sight helps some folks--particularly beginners but experienced shooters, too--maintain situational awareness and aim accurately at the same time, which is harder for some to do with iron sights.

By no means am I saying that iron sights should be neglected in terms of training at any time, because they'll always have their uses, but there are other ways to aim that may work better for some people, and those should be their primary sighting systems, with iron sights as the backup if sights are needed at all.

Finally, laser sights do make for a good training tool and they can be "another tool in the bag". However, the proper training for using conventional sights should absolutely precede any drill regimen for employing a laser. A shooter should be intimately acquainted with and demonstrably proficient with iron sights before even thinking about relying on a laser sight for self-defense purposes, no matter how limited the role a laser might play is envisioned. First things first.

I agree--iron sights are the most basic, reliable, and universal sighting system, and should be mastered to a significant degree before training to use other types of sights in a combat situation. That said, those who will never put in the required training to become as proficient as they could be with iron sights would still benefit overall from using a laser sight (or other type of sight) if they're innately better shooters with it. If it malfunctions, then they'll have to use the iron sights, for which they should have at least a basic familiarity, of course. I'm just trying to be practical, as different people have different levels of willingness and dedication to training, and I'd prefer everybody to be at their best in the common case.

 

[19&41]

I no longer consider laser sights as an accessory for a pistol. I need high magnification reading glasses, and do not need correction for distance vision. I can not wear contacts due to a chronic eye infection, and have been advised against eye surgery by 3 doctors specializing in the same. As far as seeing iron sights, anything else besides direct sunlight on a white target is light too low. A few years back, I saw no other alternative but to put the pistols away and give up what I couldn't put a scope on. I can now effectively aim and and fire my pistols at the ranges' limit of 1 round a second, firing a 14 round magazine into a hand sized pattern at 8 meters. I have no desire to win over anyone who is dead set against lasers, but there are people like me who may be interested in using lasers and are concerned about being derided for their choice. It takes practice to do well with them, and it takes getting over the distraction of knowing people will be able to see the lead up to the shot you are taking, but it can be gotten through with practice and discipline and the resultant confidence they give. I also prefer the type of activation switch that allows turn-on without altering your grip. Try the switches before you settle on a sight.

 

[Aaron2091]

I noticed that one of you had a grandma shoot a weapon out of a guys hand....now imagine sitting in front of a grand jury and trying to explain that your cool laser wouldn't make you accurate enough to shoot someone's gun from their hand while your heartrate is about 160....good luck. Dump the tacticool lasers and get a light...then dump about 1000 rounds thru your gun.

 

[IMTHDUKE]

Yeah, some folks just know what's best for everyone. And after 3 posts.

 

[altitude_19]

Can't help but notice that most of the dudes I hear ragging on lasers DON'T have them. Don't knock it till you try it. And if you try it, remember it is (counter-intuitively) an instrument of SPEED, not precision. I don't know anyone who isn't faster with the point-and-click laser sight vs standard sights. A sight picture has three components (if you have rear sights). With a laser, you drop that sight picture to two components (laser/target) that are in the same place. How would one NOT see this as an advantage? Just remember to train equally between both iron/laser sights and run failure drills often (BTW, my guns have malfunctioned more than my laser which has never failed).
AND ANOTHER THING :banghead: : Don't hand me the old "gives your position away" piece. You're not a sniper (especially with a handgun). If you have drawn a weapon, you had better be in imminent jeopardy, meaning they already know where you are. Stealth becomes a moot point.

 

[metalman8600]

You can ease your grip slightly and the Crimson Trace won't activate, tighten the grip and it turns on. Takes care of the "giving away position".

 

[omegaflame]

now imagine sitting in front of a grand jury and trying to explain that your cool laser wouldn't make you accurate enough to shoot someone's gun from their hand while your heartrate is about 160....good luck

Ask them to try it =/

 

[Buck Snort]

Almost everything I read that's anti-laser makes me question the smarts of the person making the criticism.

 

[Buck Snort]

M2Carbine wrote: "I called Streamlight before installing the TLR-2 on the shotgun to make sure it would stand the shock. Streamlight said no problem."

And you were expecting........................?

 

[Buck Snort]

Makarov918 wrote: "You will never even get a chance to use your fixed sights no less turn on some laser. It will be a one handed draw and shoot in the direction of the threat by pushing the your firearm toward the threat while pulling the trigger as fast as you can."

Does "situational awareness" play into this at any point? If you allow somebody to get the drop on you because you were not paying attention to what's going on around you then the scenario you described will become a reality. If situational awareness is a high priority for you that scenario is very unlikely to unfold.

 

[killchain]

I tried the whole "laser sight on my pistol" thing.

I spent way too much time trying to remember how to turn the dang thing on, haha.

I offloaded it and just practiced attaining a sight picture.

My $0.02

 

[IMTHDUKE]

Can't help but notice that most of the dudes I hear ragging on lasers DON'T have them. Don't knock it till you try it. And if you try it, remember it is (counter-intuitively) an instrument of SPEED, not precision. I don't know anyone who isn't faster with the point-and-click laser sight vs standard sights. A sight picture has three components (if you have rear sights). With a laser, you drop that sight picture to two components (laser/target) that are in the same place. How would one NOT see this as an advantage? Just remember to train equally between both iron/laser sights and run failure drills often (BTW, my guns have malfunctioned more than my laser which has never failed).
AND ANOTHER THING : Don't hand me the old "gives your position away" piece. You're not a sniper (especially with a handgun). If you have drawn a weapon, you had better be in imminent jeopardy, meaning they already know where you are. Stealth becomes a moot point.

Now, that's a logical post.

 

[altitude_19]

Thanks!
AND ONE MORE THING: If you had to even think about how to turn a laser on, you had the wrong one. Pick it up: it comes on. Anything more complicated in a carry gun could easily get you killed....till you're dead. I have it on good authority that's bad.

 

[M&PVolk]

Laser opponents make me laugh a bit. Most of them have never seen a laser in use, let alone actually tried to use one. They are excellent at giving out non-sensible advice on them, though, and it often contradicts other principles that they adhere to in their CCW pieces. Let's look at the arguments:

1. The laser gives away your position in low light. This one is really funny to me, especially if you agree that the target must be identified as a threat before engaging it. Since we all agree that a laser's use is in "low-light" situations, how do we identify the threat? With a light! Nearly everyone will advocate a good flashlight for this use. I guess a thin beam of red light is far more efficient at revealing your position than a big solid white one! CT lasers are activated and deactivated immediately simply by relaxing your already natural hold on the grip, a fair sight quicker than activating and deactivating a flashlight! If there is enough light to identify the target and use irons, the laser simply co-witnesses with the irons. Again, no disadvantage at all.

2. Your typical gunfight is xxx and happens within xxx amount of time, negating any effective need for a laser. This argument is probably the most hypocritical you will ever find on this site. Does anyone here actually plan for a "typical" gunfight??? According to the "typical" gunfight stats, if you carry a gun with more than 3 rounds in the chamber, you are over prepared! If you have a BUG, you are over prepared! If you use night sights, you are over prepared! If you even carry a gun at all, you are over prepared! Many who call out a person on this site for not selecting a large caliber, high cap with night sights will do so with the argument "what if your fight isn't typical". This is a good approach! So, how many of you are not good, but deadly proficient during an adrenaline dump in the dark? A laser will help you get there. How good are you when you've lost the ability to lift your gun all the way to your eye for the irons? What if you are laying on the ground being beaten? What if you have a cover source that allows you to reveal only the gun while still being able to see the target? What if you could hit the BG without ever having to expose the top of your head? Lasers can help with all those things. You may never need one, but that doesn't mean you can't benefit from one, and in some situations, it may be the one thing that allows you to survive when conventional irons might get you killed. Sounds an awful lot like why CCW holders actually cary in the first place.

3. You must master irons because your laser can fail. You should master every way of shooting your gun, but does this mean a possible failure of a device means it shouldn't be used??? It's a foolish argument! By this logic, you shouldn't use a semi-auto gun, as it might jam. You shouldn't put an optic on your rifle, it might fail. Of course, anti-laser folks already ignore the fact that basic irons fail every single day! Failure is built in to the iron sight by virtue of the fact that once it gets dark, you can't see them! This is why night sights are so popular! Of course night sights fade over time and may become too dim to actually see well, too. Maybe we shouldn't use them, either? Ironically enough, in our defensive carbines, most owners buy a non-magnified red dot for quick aquisition for defense (including the military) for simplicity and effectiveness, but we shouldn't apply a similar philosophy to our CCW? Preposterous.

4. Lastly is the suggestion that a laser is a distraction in a gunfight and puts your eyes on the threat instead of the defensive tool. This is possibly the most idiotic argument out there. The dot goes where the gun is pointed. If you are pointed at the target in a conventional manner, the dot is right in the line of sight. The laser is BRIGHT! It doesn't take five minutes to figure out where it is. In low light it really is picked up instantly. Additionally, in what world is it advantageous to not be able to sight in on a target while seeing what the target is actually doing? It is always a tactical advantage to be able to clearly observe the threat as a primary focus and respond to it dynamically. A laser allows that, irons allow you to shoot at a blur while you focus on that front sight...what is that blur doing? Of course, much as our carbine defensive users have learned, limiting the number of items you have to line up to be effective is always preferable for defense. They use red dots first, with back up iron sights! The laser clearly wins here.

5. Lastly is cost. Simple one here. How much is your life worth? We all agree that training is important, but if you can swing hundreds/thousands for good training, is a $200-$300 investment to give an additional edge really wasted money? I think not.

The laser provides an additional potentially life saving tool to your carry piece for a reasonable amount of money and I have yet to see ONE good, logical argument against them. They are amazing training tools, too. Get one, learn how to use it, and be safe.

 

[Roswell_Kid]

In the home, OK, but on the street? With our distorted press and govt-school "guns are evil" indoctrination? With the Hollywood-induced images of laser guided death in the mindset of our mostly firearms-ignorant population? Not this boy.

Law 7530 which governs the use of firearms is extremely brief regarding personal defense. To paraphrase, I may "use a firearm in defense if there is no other avenue available, but may not use excessive force." It is that simple and that vague. Inside the home, no one is going to ask too many questions. But God forbid you have to use that firearm on the street, well... Trial outcomes are decided by a judge here, not a jury. If there could possibly be the slightest question about "excessive force" you might find your picture on page 2 of La Nacion captioned "Laser Killer," regardless of the true nature of your defensive use of force, drumming up furor while you await formal investigation.

 

[M&PVolk]

Maybe. Are you using hollow points or ball ammo? Reloads? Same argument could be made about them.

In reality, laser devices help you hit your target as opposed to slinging out lead irresponsibly and hitting potential innocents. HP provide expansion to help make a bigger wound cavity, but also to prevent bullet zip throughs and hitting innocents.

If a gun was only used in the legal confines of defending yourself from being killed, are lasers and hollowpoints excessive force, or are they being as responsible as possible to prevent any potential danger to innocents?

 

[Roswell_Kid]

No one is arguing the logic of using a device which helps do all those things you describe, M&P. We are not talking about logic here, but emotional knee-jerk reaction (much of which may be based upon ignorance) which may wrongfully put a person in jail.

Considering the legal reactions typical to every high-profile criminal act that comes along, like this one, it's actually a wonder I can still carry a weapon at all. The Jamaican perpetrators in that article had no permits, were here on forged papers, and obviously a full-auto AK-47 is not permitted. Nevertheless, you see the reaction.

Those of us who do legally carry would be lunatics to push the envelope. That's just the way it is, sadly.

By the way, can anyone recommend a FMJ round that does expand? Although not in laser death ray status, hollowpoints too evoke the same sort of feelings.

 

[M2 Carbine]

M2Carbine wrote: "I called Streamlight before installing the TLR-2 on the shotgun to make sure it would stand the shock. Streamlight said no problem."

And you were expecting........................?

I expected an honest answer from a reputable company and that's what I believe I got.

 

[duns]

I love the laser on my S&W M&P 340CT. No use in bright sunlight but indoors or at night, I think it makes it hard to miss -- even if firing from the hip or in the weak hand or shooting from behind cover. There is no "switching on" of the laser, it comes on automatically when I grip the gun in the normal manner. I am still on my first set of batteries after 8 months and plenty of range and dry firing practice. The battery isn't going to go dead just at the moment I need it, it will show signs of weakening first. Even if the laser fails at the crucial moment, I still have the iron sights. I don't see any downside other than cost.

BTW you don't hunt around for the red dot. You point the gun naturally and you will be somewhere close and then you swing the red dot for fine positioning.

I had the impression that a lot of the negative comments came from people who had never tried a laser.

 

[duns]

The argument that a jury would see a laser as "excessive force" is to my mind plain silly. It's just a different type of sight. It helps you put the bullet where you intend and not in some innocent bystander.

 

[M&PVolk]

No one is arguing the logic of using a device which helps do all those things you describe, M&P. We are not talking about logic here, but emotional knee-jerk reaction (much of which may be based upon ignorance) which may wrongfully put a person in jail.

Considering the legal reactions typical to every high-profile criminal act that comes along, like this one, it's actually a wonder I can still carry a weapon at all. The Jamaican perpetrators in that article had no permits, were here on forged papers, and obviously a full-auto AK-47 is not permitted. Nevertheless, you see the reaction.

Those of us who do legally carry would be lunatics to push the envelope. That's just the way it is, sadly.

By the way, can anyone recommend a FMJ round that does expand? Although not in laser death ray status, hollowpoints too evoke the same sort of feelings.

I understand your point and I don't necessarily disagree so much as I would like to just present a different POV. For every knee jerk reaction to enhancing the effectiveness of a carry gun to stop a threat, there is a logical argument about that enhancement helping to protect innocent life. How will that play with a jury? I don't know, but I think the laser death ray angle would be readily swatted down by a good attorney defending an honest man....at least I would hope so.

 

[duns]

Although not in laser death ray status, hollowpoints too evoke the same sort of feelings.

Discussion of hollow points is off topic but, anyway, surely it is generally recognized that hollow points are less likely to over-penetrate and injure innocent bystanders while being more likely to stop the assailant without killing him?

Lasers are more likely to help the bullet find its mark and therefore a sign of a responsible shooter.

 

[Roswell_Kid]

All those arguments are valid and I'm not disagreeing. I'd be a lot more comfortable with the idea of a laser on the street if we did have jury trials but we do not. Trial decisions are rendered by an individual judge, not a jury.